Confirmed with Link: Pavel Datsyuk to Mitch Album: I'm going home next season

[BinCookin]

I don't but I expect to be in the minority.

I will never think less of him as a player. I appreciate the years we got, but this is extremely crappy and it falls on Pavel first and foremost in my eyes and I remain unchanged on that.

Really I think if they keep his contract they should absolutely enforce the transfer rules and find him in breach of it if he signs in the KHL. Tough but is business is business.

There are absolutely things that could change this narrative though. Like if Pavel sits out next year, I will immediately take that back cap hit or no. Of course in that event he would just be LTIR money.

But even if they made a legal stink, and find him in breach and win... its not like we can erase the cap hit.

 

[kabidjan18]

Franzen isn't going to play hockey anywhere as he can't. Datsyuk is actually going to make more in the KHL even with the crappy ruble than he likely would with the Wings. I guess we will see, but when he signs for 500,000,000 rubles next year well....

Datsyuk cannot LTIR and play in another league. Even the mental gymnastics the league did to employ Pronger don't quite cover having Datsyuk on LTIR while playing hockey in another league.

Another possibility is that he said he wasn't 100% for more bargaining power in the KHL.

People got really excited when Kovalchuk signed a KHL deal worth the 450 million rubles mentioned and they leap willfully to the conclusion that the KHL is some money tree alternative to the NHL. This is a common discussion on the KHL section of HF, but the idea in principle is a myth. The average KHL import is paid 300-500 thousand USD a year as of early last year and the ruble has fallen since then. That's less than the NHL minimum wage. The 300 million dollar Radulov deal is now worth 4 million a year, less than high-paid superstars like Tyler Bozak, Nazem Kadri and Jake Gardiner are making. Datsyuk has no strength at the bargaining table. First, he's already said he's going back to the KHL, so KHL general managers will not feel the need to be competitive with an NHL salary as he wouldn't play in the NHL anyways next year. He will be 38 by the start of the next season, Kovalchuk was in his prime and Radulov was even younger. Kovalchuk's last full season he was over PPG in the NHL, Datsyuk finished hovering just below .75 PPG and declining quickly. He also wouldn't be open at his age to a long term contract, and neither would a club wish to give it to him, but KHL teams tend to pay significantly more for long contracts than for rental players. Also, if he wanted to keep true to spending time with his family, Yekaterinberg is a club with a smaller budget. If he stayed in Detroit and the ruble fell to 3x less than before the Euromaiden he would actually make 500 million rubles next season. He definitely could not get that in the KHL. This latest statement is probably just a last ditch attempt to gather together some leverage at the bargaining table with some KHL team, but I don't think he's going to get a 500 million ruble contract, or anywhere close to that.

 

[jaster]

But even if they made a legal stink, and find him in breach and win... its not like we can erase the cap hit.

Could you not put him on LTIR at that point? Seems like you could, but I wouldn't be surprised if the citing of transfer rules takes that option away somehow.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Another possibility is that he said he wasn't 100% for more bargaining power in the KHL.

People got really excited when Kovalchuk signed a KHL deal worth the 450 million rubles mentioned and they leap willfully to the conclusion that the KHL is some money tree alternative to the NHL. This is a common discussion on the KHL section of HF, but the idea in principle is a myth. The average KHL import is paid 300-500 thousand USD a year as of early last year and the ruble has fallen since then. That's less than the NHL minimum wage. The 300 million dollar Radulov deal is now worth 4 million a year, less than high-paid superstars like Tyler Bozak, Nazem Kadri and Jake Gardiner are making. Datsyuk has no strength at the bargaining table. First, he's already said he's going back to the KHL, so KHL general managers will not feel the need to be competitive with an NHL salary as he wouldn't play in the NHL anyways next year. He will be 38 by the start of the next season, Kovalchuk was in his prime and Radulov was even younger. Kovalchuk's last full season he was over PPG in the NHL, Datsyuk finished hovering just below .75 PPG and declining quickly. He also wouldn't be open at his age to a long term contract, and neither would a club wish to give it to him, but KHL teams tend to pay significantly more for long contracts than for rental players. Also, if he wanted to keep true to spending time with his family, Yekaterinberg is a club with a smaller budget. If he stayed in Detroit and the ruble fell to 3x less than before the Euromaiden he would actually make 500 million rubles next season. He definitely could not get that in the KHL. This latest statement is probably just a last ditch attempt to gather together some leverage at the bargaining table with some KHL team, but I don't think he's going to get a 500 million ruble contract, or anywhere close to that.

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought Kovy's deal was actually done in US currency....

They did just spend 10 million or some 700 rubles on the U-18 team they aren't even taking. I get that the currency has dropped, but that doesn't mean it has to guys like Datsyuk and what he would represent. I fully believe he will recoup more than the 5+ million US he is expected to make here next year. Also keep in mind his salary will be completely tax exempt or taxed at an incredibly paltry rate which is always important when looking at salary figures in the US, the actual take home is X.

 

[BinCookin]

Could you not put him on LTIR at that point? Seems like you could, but I wouldn't be surprised if the citing of transfer rules takes that option away somehow.

I mean the thing with LTIR is if you sit at home, people can assume you are injured when you arn't.

The NHL seems to be OK with this, because they don't want to open up lawsuits and things by punishing players who are infact hurt.. and insurance pays their salaries anyway, so its just not a big deal for the league.

This situation is basically a lot more like Kovalchuk than a regular retirement. From the point of view that LTIR just really isn't going to be considered, unless Datsyuk wants to go to Russia and NOT play hockey (unlikely).

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

But even if they made a legal stink, and find him in breach and win... its not like we can erase the cap hit.

If he is in breach of contract he is dishonoring the contract to play somewhere else. Not sure what they would do about the 35+ rule but it would be a different kind of judgment and a tough one for the league.

He isn't retired and we want him to play here and are fighting it... Doing everything in their power also to fight the KHL on the NHL behalf in terms of honoring contracts which I am sure the other owners will dig to a big degree. What is to say that isn't our easiest way to knock that contract off the books?

 

[BinCookin]

If he is in breach of contract he is dishonoring the contract to play somewhere else. Not sure what they would do about the 35+ rule but it would be a different kind of judgment and a tough one for the league.

He isn't retired and we want him to play here and are fighting it... Doing everything in their power also to fight the KHL on the NHL behalf in terms of honoring contracts which I am sure the other owners will dig to a big degree. What is to say that isn't our easiest way to knock that contract off the books?

I mean to be honest I have no idea.. NHL could compromise with any of its rules i suppose. I just don't know much about contract breaches at all.

 

[kabidjan18]

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought Kovy's deal was actually done in Us currency....

They did just spend 10 million or some 700 rubles on the U-18 team they aren't even taking. I get that the currency has dropped, but that doesn't mean it has to guys like Datsyuk and what he would represent. I fully believe he will recoup more than the 5+ million US he is expected to make here next year. Also keep in mind his salary will be completely tax exempt or taxed at an incredibly paltry rate which is always important when looking at salary figures in the US, the actual take home is X.

If he's moving back to Russia I don't see the deal being done in dollars...Interesting that you mentioned the Kovy deal though I haven't heard that before but maybe it's true?

If the ruble continues to fall I still have a very hard time seeing him recouping his salary. The tax exemption point is a good point. He'd still be making roughly 300 million rubles with Detroit given the 3x drop from the euromaiden, and the oil crisis is unlikely to self-correct in Russia first...Teams are corporations, corporations don't pay you just for the sake of paying you, I just don't feel he has any strength at the bargaining table, and that's why he would come back a day later and say something like he could possibly stay. Just my thoughts.

 

[jaster]

I mean the thing with LTIR is if you sit at home, people can assume you are injured when you arn't.

The NHL seems to be OK with this, because they don't want to open up lawsuits and things by punishing players who are infact hurt.. and insurance pays their salaries anyway, so its just not a big deal for the league.

This situation is basically a lot more like Kovalchuk than a regular retirement. From the point of view that LTIR just really isn't going to be considered, unless Datsyuk wants to go to Russia and NOT play hockey (unlikely).

Well that's what I mean.... if the Wings successfully prevent Datsyuk from playing in the KHL next season, by way of citing the transfer agreement, could they not then put Datsyuk on LTIR, thereby minimizing the damage his cap hit does to the Wings? Seems like this avenue is a complete unknown. Regardless, I don't see the Wings doing that to Datsyuk anyway.

 

[Shaman464]

If he is in breach of contract he is dishonoring the contract to play somewhere else. Not sure what they would do about the 35+ rule but it would be a different kind of judgment and a tough one for the league.

He isn't retired and we want him to play here and are fighting it... Doing everything in their power also to fight the KHL on the NHL behalf in terms of honoring contracts which I am sure the other owners will dig to a big degree. What is to say that isn't our easiest way to knock that contract off the books?

He's retiring from the NHL. That doesn't mean he's retiring from hockey. Retirement means that he forfeits his right to play in the NHL, but the contract usually doesn't say 'you can't play anywhere else, ever' just 'if you play in the NHL you must play for the team who has contracted you.'

 

[Shaman464]

Well that's what I mean.... if the Wings successfully prevent Datsyuk from playing in the KHL next season, by way of citing the transfer agreement, could they not then put Datsyuk on LTIR, thereby minimizing the damage his cap hit does to the Wings? Seems like this avenue is a complete unknown. Regardless, I don't see the Wings doing that to Datsyuk anyway.

They shouldn't try, because LTIR retirements seem to be the next cap circumvention tool that if abused the NHL will crackdown on.

 

[BinCookin]

Well that's what I mean.... if the Wings successfully prevent Datsyuk from playing in the KHL next season, by way of citing the transfer agreement, could they not then put Datsyuk on LTIR, thereby minimizing the damage his cap hit does to the Wings? Seems like this avenue is a complete unknown. Regardless, I don't see the Wings doing that to Datsyuk anyway.

I suppose. But who knows, that goes down a very dirty road...

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

He's retiring from the NHL. That doesn't mean he's retiring from hockey. Retirement means that he forfeits his right to play in the NHL, but the contract usually doesn't say 'you can't play anywhere else, ever' just 'if you play in the NHL you must play for the team who has contracted you.'

He has a contract in the NHL for next season. For him to play in the KHL next season he would be in violation. They could site Kovalchuk but New Jersey desperate to sell didn't actually uphold or file a claim on it. The KHL would be in violation as far as the agreement if the Wings sought an actual ruling.

It would be sad if it came to that, but it is an option that is very much on the table. Just like you have to sit out a year in the NHL, which I believe is pulled from the IIHF, the same could apply to Datsyuk going home.

For the record there should be no challenge for him to play in Avtomobilist Yekaterinburg in my opinion. Which is a poor club, with absolutely no shot at winning anything or paying him his salary. For me if I am the Wings that is him doing exactly what he says he wants to while playing hockey. But if he signs with CSKA, Dynamo Moscow or SKA um.... Yeah that is a problem in my books.

 

[Shaman464]

He has a contract in the NHL for next season. For him to play in the KHL next season he would be in violation. They could site Kovalchuk but New Jersey desperate to sell didn't actually uphold or file a claim on it. The KHL would be in violation as far as the agreement if the Wings sought an actual ruling.

It would be sad if it came to that, but it is an option that is very much on the table. Just like you have to sit out a year in the NHL, which I believe is pulled from the IIHF, the same could apply to Datsyuk going home.

For the record there should be no challenge for him to play in Avtomobilist Yekaterinburg in my opinion. Which is a poor club, with absolutely no shot at winning anything or paying him his salary. For me if I am the Wings that is him doing exactly what he says he wants to while playing hockey. But if he signs with CSKA, Dynamo Moscow or SKA um.... Yeah that is a problem in my books.

Well, again, he's retiring from NHL play. This isn't the Hudler situation where he has every intention of playing in the NHL, but decides to go somewhere else. He's saying that he, based on family and physical reason is not capable of competing in the NHL, as such he wants to retire. These reasons do not, because of the proximity to his family and the level of play, extend to the KHL.

If Detroit fights it, it will end up being bad for the Wings, if not from the decision of the IIHF, the negative press and damage to the reputation.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I mean the thing with LTIR is if you sit at home, people can assume you are injured when you arn't.

The NHL seems to be OK with this, because they don't want to open up lawsuits and things by punishing players who are infact hurt.. and insurance pays their salaries anyway, so its just not a big deal for the league.

This situation is basically a lot more like Kovalchuk than a regular retirement. From the point of view that LTIR just really isn't going to be considered, unless Datsyuk wants to go to Russia and NOT play hockey (unlikely).

They have challenged certain kinds in the past. Mogilny quite famously in terms of challenging the injury.

The reason Franzen is a no go is the head issues, which like you said are incredibly tricky and we have pretty substantial rumors/proof he has been advised not to play.

The big one here will be Hossa in my opinion. Because barring another head injury he is going to be tough to stash on LTIR which the Hawks are surely going to want to do shortly with his massive decline in play. He has existing injuries and he might have trouble passing a true physical as most NHL players would at his age. But I am guessing he is the first player we hear about being challenged by a third party doctor when he is attempted to be stashed on LTIR by Chicago.

 

[kabidjan18]

He has a contract in the NHL for next season. For him to play in the KHL next season he would be in violation. They could site Kovalchuk but New Jersey desperate to sell didn't actually uphold or file a claim on it. The KHL would be in violation as far as the agreement if the Wings sought an actual ruling.

It would be sad if it came to that, but it is an option that is very much on the table. Just like you have to sit out a year in the NHL, which I believe is pulled from the IIHF, the same could apply to Datsyuk going home.

For the record there should be no challenge for him to play in Avtomobilist Yekaterinburg in my opinion. Which is a poor club, with absolutely no shot at winning anything or paying him his salary. For me if I am the Wings that is him doing exactly what he says he wants to while playing hockey. But if he signs with CSKA, Dynamo Moscow or SKA um.... Yeah that is a problem in my books.

To be fair to Holland if they go the dirty route...friends don't stay friends if you renege on deals...

 

[kabidjan18]

This.

THN's Ken Campbell on the Datsyuk debacle

As for this last part....

Oh, they will, Ken. They've already pinned the whole mess on Ken Holland. They've accomplished a level of mental gymnastics that both protects them from rationally devaluing a player they've loved for a decade and a half, as well as continuing to skewer the GM that is at fault for nearly every single thing they perceive to be wrong with the organization. The most convenient and feel-good narrative has already been scripted, and nothing that happens next season will change it.

I always have felt sorry for GMs and always will. They tend to bear the brunt of the anger from ignorant fanbases. I was on the Flyers board before the deadline, which is straight up with worst time ever for fans and GMs. One guys proposed something like Brayden Schenn, Michael Raffl and a conditional pick for PK Subban and Tomas Plekanec. Then another fan comes in and says "no we're giving up too much." Then they theorized on Matt Read for Andrew Ladd, Matt Read for Mikkel Boedker. Their reasoning was the classic "dumping cap space", dumping all of 800,000 dollars of cap space. If Ken could've done a better job I'll personally never know, unless he gets fired after next season of course, but people are going to pin it on him because that's what fans without much information do.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

I don't but I expect to be in the minority.

I will never think less of him as a player. I appreciate the years we got, but this is extremely crappy and it falls on Pavel first and foremost in my eyes and I remain unchanged on that.

Really I think if they keep his contract they should absolutely enforce the transfer rules and find him in breach of it if he signs in the KHL. Tough but is business is business.

There are absolutely things that could change this narrative though. Like if Pavel sits out next year, I will immediately take that back cap hit or no. Of course in that event he would just be LTIR money.

You don't do that. If he does actually want out (and it seems like he does), then the Wings are left between a rock and a hard place: do you let him leave just because he wants to go home even though it'd **** the Wings over, or do you force him to play for the team even though his heart isn't in it?

If he wants to go, then go -- he's still gonna be one of my favourite Wings' players of all time regardless.

The way he's leaving though making the Wings eat his caphit? I'm with ya on this -- it's gonna leave a pretty bad taste in my mouth.

 

[jaster]

They shouldn't try, because LTIR retirements seem to be the next cap circumvention tool that if abused the NHL will crackdown on.

If the NHL thinks a team is abusing LTIR and wants to do something about it, they can do something about it immediately (i.e. deny the LTIR move). Can't hurt to try, given that Datsyuk does have significant health issues.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If the NHL thinks a team is abusing LTIR and wants to do something about it, they can do something about it immediately (i.e. deny the LTIR move). Can't hurt to try, given that Datsyuk does have significant health issues.

They also are sending an I dare you message by employing Pronger.... For the life of me I cannot understand how a room full of lawyers at least in background training didn't see that as an incredibly bad stance.

 

[jaster]

He's saying that he, based on family and physical reason is not capable of competing in the NHL, as such he wants to retire. These reasons do not, because of the proximity to his family and the level of play, extend to the KHL.

Oh he's capable. He just doesn't want to play in the NHL. And he has cited family and a desire to play in the KHL while he can still perform at a high level as his two reasons.

 

[jaster]

You don't do that. If he does actually want out (and it seems like he does), then the Wings are left between a rock and a hard place: do you let him leave just because he wants to go home even though it'd **** the Wings over, or do you force him to play for the team even though his heart isn't in it?

In that scenario, I don't think he'd play for the Wings though. He'd just sit out of hockey for a year. It's tough to envision the Wings doing it though. It will create a negative reaction from fans, which they likely want to avoid.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

In that scenario, I don't think he'd play for the Wings though. He'd just sit out of hockey for a year. It's tough to envision the Wings doing it though. It will create a negative reaction from fans, which they likely want to avoid.

He won't sit out a full season. I guarantee you that.

Would there be a big push back from Wings' fans? After the way he's ****ing the team two ways from Sunday cap-wise? I dunno. I'm not overly sympathetic to his cause myself, but there's probably lots of other people around here that feel differently than me.

 

[Bench]

Does anyone really trust the KHL to honor the agreement when it's their Olympic captain coming home? Like seriously, if these oil tycoons and Putin want to see their boy play, uhhh, he's playing. I don't think flexing that muscle works, but the Wings would never do that anyway.

 

[Ingvar]

Guys, Datsyuk's situation is regulated by NHL by-laws regarding Volutary Retirement. Detroit can't prevent him from signing in KHL because voluntary retirement was designed specifically for such situations. Pasha will file his papers, terminate his contract and be free to do whatever he pleases outside of NHL. This is not slavery and Datsyuk doesn't break his contract, he is using a legal option given to him by NHL.

That's why it is important to trade him before he retires. I guess when Holland says that he won't trade his rights he doesn't mean it, he just hopes to talk him into playing one more year.