Pavel Bure hype

[Tofveve]

Take Ovechkin's first 5 seasons (his best seasons in my mind) and take Bure's DPE numbers and make them face-off, in Bure's seasons, the overall scoring league wide was similar.

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_GoalsPerGame.php


1993-94: Bure had 60 goals and 107 Pts in 76 games, the league's overall GPG was 6.484

1997-98: Bure had 51 goals and 90 Pts in 81 games, the league's overall GPG was 5.276.

1999-00: Bure had 58 goals and 94 Pts in 74 games (pace of 64 goals and 104 Pts) , the league's overall GPG was 5.492

2000-01: Bure had 59 goals and 92 Pts, the league's overall GPG was 5.513.

The average goals per game during Bure's 4 best seasons (excluding 1992-93 because scoring was much higher then) was 5.69125.

Now Ovechkin's numbers:

2005-06: Ovechkin had 52 goals and 106 Pts in 81 games, the league's overall GPG was 6.050

2006-07: Ovechkin had 46 goals and 92 Pts in 82 games, the league's overall GPG was 5.758

2007-08: Ovechkin had 65 goals and 112 Pts in 82 games, the league's GPG was 5.440.

2008-09: Ovechkin had 56 goals and 110 Pts in 79 games, the league's GPG was 5.695

2009-10: Ovechkin had 50 goals and 109 Pts in 72 games, the league's GPG was 5.531

During Ovechkin's 5 aforementioned seasons, the average GPG was 5.6506.

If anything, the scoring levels are pretty close with 1997-98 being significantly the lowest scoring season yet Bure still put up 51 goals.

Again, the red lines, and the obstruction during Bure's time has to be looked at seriously as well.

Adjusted numbers aren't everything but based on adjusted goals totals, Bure's 4 best goals seasons are as follows:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/burepa01.html

55 goals in 1993-94

59 goals in 1997-98

64 goals in 1999-00

65 goals in 2000-01

Bure averaged 60.75 goals "adjusted" in these 4 aforementioned seasons.

As for Ovechkin:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/o/ovechal01.html

52 goals in 2005-06

48 goals in 2006-07

72 goals in 2007-08

59 goals in 2008-09

55 goals in 2009-10

He averaged 57.2 goals "adjusted" in his 5 first seasons in the league.

Also consider that Ovechkin as of 2008-09 played on much better offensive teams than Bure did during his whole career.

Come on now, you're skewing numbers. Look at goals during the 92-93 season the first year Bure exploded. He was 4th in league scoring when he scored 60 goals (14 players over 50 goals).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1993_leaders.html

The next year 93-94, Bure led the league in goals with 60 but there were still 9 players over 50 goals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1994_leaders.html

Bure's next best season in 97-98, when he scored 51 goals he was tied for 3rd in goals - 4 players above 50 that year.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1998_leaders.html

In 99-2000, Bure's next amazing year with Florida where he scored 58 goals, that was his first real breakaway season as the leagues top scorer as he was the only one above 50 and next nearest at 44 was Bondra.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2000_leaders.html

The following year was his 2nd back-to-back ahead of the pack season at 59 goals. Joe Sakic had 54 and Jagr had 52 - the only players above 50.

So you had 3 seasons where Bure was truly the dominant scorer in the league and only one where he was miles ahead of the 2nd place guy. 3 seasons with 1 being way ahead of the league's second scorer.

Then his career nosedived due to injury etc. (22 goals after 59).

Alexander Ovechkin's numbers:

First year in NHL, Alex is third in league scoring with 52
Goals - 5 players with over 50.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2006_leaders.html

The next year he scores 46 as a sophomore and is 4th in league scoring with only 2 players 50 or more goals that year.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2007_leaders.html

The following year he blows the league away with 65 goals (13 goals of 2nd place) as one of only 3 players scoring over 50.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2008_leaders.html

In the 08-09 season he was the only player to score over 50 goals scoring 56, 10 ahead of the next player.

In 09-10 was 3rd in league scoring (one behind leader) scoring 50 goals - only 3 players scored 50 or more that year.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2010_leaders.html

The following year he scores 32, yes, an "off year" placing tied for 14th (only ONE 50 goal scorer that year)

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=63735

In 11-12 season he scores 38 goals for 4th league - only two players scoring over 50 that year.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2012_leaders.html

12-13 was a lockout shortened season and he still scored 32 in 48 games (only 30+ scorer and 3 ahead of 2nd place)

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2013_leaders.html

13-14, Ovi is the only 50 goal scorer scoring 51 under train-wreck Oates (next scorer is 8 goals back):

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2014_leaders.html

Through 72 games this season Ovi is at 47 goals and looks like he'll hit 50 - the only player doing it. As of now 2nd best scorer is 7 goals back.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2015_leaders.html

Somehow your numbers are not capturing what the top scorers around the two players in question were doing. In only one season did Bure blow away the competition and only in 3 did he lead the league. So I don't know how Pavel is the dominant scorer. It's quite obvious the edge goes to Ovi.

As I said many times, Bure was one of the greats however and probably 2nd most dominant Russian though sadly hampered by injury.

 

[livewell68]

Come on now, you're skewing numbers. Look at goals during the 92-93 season the first year Bure exploded. He was 4th in league scoring when he scored 60 goals (14 players over 50 goals).

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1993_leaders.html

The next year 93-94, Bure led the league in goals but there were still 9 players over 50 goals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1994_leaders.html

Bure's next best season in 97-98, when he scored 51 goals he was tied for 3rd in goals - 4 players above 50 that year.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1998_leaders.html

In 99-2000, Bure's next amazing year with Florida where he scored 58 goals, that was his first real breakaway season as the leagues top scorer as he was the only one above 50 and next nearest at 44 was Bondra.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2000_leaders.html

The following year was his 2nd back-to-back ahead of the pack season at 59 goals. Joe Sakic had 54 and Jagr had 52 - the only players above 50.

So you had 3 seasons where Bure was truly the dominant scorer in the league and only one where he was miles ahead of the 2nd place guy. 3 seasons with 1 being way ahead of the league's second scorer.

Then his career nosedived due to injury etc. (22 goals after 59).

Alexander Ovechkin's numbers:

First year in NHL, Alex is third in league scoring with 52
Goals - 5 players with over 50.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2006_leaders.html

The next year he scores 46 as a sophomore and is 4th in league scoring with only 2 players 50 or more goals that year.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2007_leaders.html

The following year he blows the league away with 65 goals (13 goals of 2nd place) as one of only 3 players scoring over 50.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2008_leaders.html

In the 08-09 season he was the only player to score over 50 goals scoring 56, 10 ahead of the next player.

He was 3rd in league scoring (one behind leader) scoring 50 goals - only 3 players scored 50 or more that year.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2010_leaders.html

The following year he scores 32, yes, an "off year" placing tied for 14th (only ONE 50 goal scorer that year)

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=63735

In 11-12 season he scores 38 goals for 4th league - only two players scoring over 50 that year.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2012_leaders.html

12-13 was a lockout shortened season and he still scored 32 in 48 games (only 30+ scorer and 3 ahead of 2nd place)

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2013_leaders.html

13-14, Ovi is the only 50 goal scorer scoring 51 under train-wreck Oates (next scorer is 8 goals back):

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2014_leaders.html

Through 72 games this season Ovi is at 47 goals and looks like he'll hit 50 - the only player doing it. As of now 2nd best scorer is 7 goals back.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2015_leaders.html

I didn't skew any of the numbers and I clearly stated that the 1992-93 season was very high in scoring.

The numbers are very similar and I provided the numbers to prove it. Your assertion that scoring was much lower in Ovechkin's era is simply not true.

Also Ovechkin didn't have to compete against a prime Jagr the way Bure did.

Bure has an Art Ross in 1999-00 if not for Jagr.

Bure was up against Bondra, Selanne, Tkatchuk, Leclair, Lemieux and Jagr in their primes when it came to goalscoring, these are exceptionally better competitors as a whole compared to Ovechkin's competition.

 

[Tofveve]

Wait, what? This isn't 2006, OBSTRUCTION IS BACK!

Now let's compare their careers.

Top-10 in goals:

Bure: 1, 1, 1, 3, 5
Ovechkin: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6

(this is assuming he finishes 1st this year, which is almost a given)
Goal-scoring wise, Bobby Hull is the only comparable to Ovechkin as of today.

Top-10 in points:

Bure: 2, 3, 5, 7
Ovechkin: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 7, 8

(not counting this year as it's uncertain where he'll end up)

Hart votes (best ranked finishes):

Bure: 3, 9, 12
Ovechkin: 1, 1, 1, 2, 6, 14, 22, 23

(impossible to tell for this year, but another top-3 most likely)

Bure being "close" to Ovechkin is a pipe dream. Even if you remove Lemieux/Jagr from the equation, it's still not close. Funny enough, if Bure had been a "boring" elite goal-scorer such as Dany Heatley or Phil Esposito, he wouldn't get half the praise he's getting.

I agree with your analysis.

 

[livewell68]

I agree with your analysis.

Some perspective is needed.

Bure was up against Selanne, Federov, Bondra, Jagr, Lemieux, Mogilny, Karyia, Forsberg, Sakic and Lindros and a still good Gretzky for points and goals list and Hart (Hasek) voting.

Ovechkin was up against Malkin, Crosby, Sedin, Stamkos and Kovalchuk.

There is a huge discrepancy between the level of talent of each player's competition.

Selanne and Bure would steal a few of Ovechkin's Rockets for starters, and Ovechkin would never beat Jagr, Gretzky or Lemieux for any of the Art Ross trophies.

 

[Tofveve]

I didn't skew any of the numbers and I clearly stated that the 1992-93 season was very high in scoring.

The numbers are very similar and I provided the numbers to prove it. Your assertion that scoring was much lower in Ovechkin's era is simply not true.

Also Ovechkin didn't have to compete against a prime Jagr the way Bure did.

Bure has an Art Ross in 1999-00 if not for Jagr.

Bure was up against Bondra, Selanne, Tkatchuk, Leclair, Lemieux and Jagr in their primes when it came to goalscoring, these are exceptionally better competitors as a whole compared to Ovechkin's competition.

I was more concerned about the dead puck era and gpg idea. I don't think you can downplay great scorers of Ovi's era either. I think overall Ovi is more the more dominant one and at some point you have to consider the broader range of data/career irrespective of injury. Comparing best season to best season even, Ovi had 65 while Bure had 60 2x.

Regarding scorers of Bure's era, no one was all that consistently high. In fact, countryman Fedorov might have been the most consistent high scorer (though without the huger numbers).

There was no competition like Stamkos is to Ovechkin. Even Perry has had quite a few good seasons.

Regardless, the issue is that yes, Bure was amazing and sadly we never saw what could have been in a full healthy career. But that doesn't make him better than Ovi. Which is in fact too bad that it has come to be such a major point of this thread.

 

[livewell68]

I was more concerned about the dead puck era and gpg idea. I don't think you can downplay great scorers of Ovi's era either. I think overall Ovi is more the more dominant one and at some point you have to consider the broader range of data/career irrespective of injury. Comparing best season to best season even, Ovi had 65 while Bure had 60 2x.

Regarding scorers of Bure's era, no one was all that consistently high. In fact, countryman Fedorov might have been the most consistent high scorer (though without the huger numbers).

There was no competition like Stamkos is to Ovechkin. Even Perry has had quite a few good seasons.

Regardless, the issue is that yes, Bure was amazing and sadly we never saw what could have been in a full healthy career. But that doesn't make him better than Ovi. Which is in fact too bad that it has come to be such a major point of this thread.

I agree with most of what you said but Selanne lead the league in goals 3x during Bure's prime, Bondra twice. Jagr was also consistently 2nd in goals during the same time and once led the NHL in GPG.

So in all fairness, Bure's competition was tougher.

 

[Tofveve]

Some perspective is needed.

Bure was up against Selanne, Federov, Bondra, Jagr, Lemieux, Mogilny, Karyia, Forsberg, Sakic and Lindros and a still good Gretzky for points and goals list and Hart (Hasek) voting.

Ovechkin was up against Malkin, Crosby, Sedin, Stamkos and Kovalchuk.

There is a huge discrepancy between the level of talent of each player's competition.

Selanne and Bure would steal a few of Ovechkin's Rockets for starters, and Ovechkin would never beat Jagr, Gretzky or Lemieux for any of the Art Ross trophies.

I disagree. I just looked up the big name stats of Bure's era. Fedorov' goal-scoring was probably best with the rest being up and down. Didn't check Bondra but that's one.

 

[livewell68]

I disagree. I just looked up the big name stats of Bure's era. Fedorov' goal-scoring was probably best with the rest being up and down. Didn't check Bondra but that's one.

Just interested, but what do you mean by this? Are you only looking at goals per game stats?

Federov had one great goalscoring season which was 1993-94.

 

[Tofveve]

I have to check out of this thread. IMO, Bure was great but as someone who isn't/wasn't a homer to either player while watching both virtually equally and a lot, I'd gove Ovechkin the edge as the better overall player and scorer. The edge for Bure would be his blazing speed.

I also demonstrated that there were fewer 50+ scorers during Ovi's age of dominance.

Anyway, nice debate.

Cheers and props to Bure!

 

[Tofveve]

Just interested, but what do you mean by this? Are you only looking at goals per game stats?

Federov had one great goalscoring season which was 1993-94.

Except for I think it was the 97-98 season he was a perennial low to mid thirty goal scorer. I meant most consistent + assists.

 

[TheNumber4]

Sorry for the dramatic title, but I remember as a kid being into Bure when there were artices posted about him as a player It seemed like it was so much hype. Yet that was millions of years before the social network. Yet I see no one in the modern NHL of his calibre. I don't see anyone in the NHL being BURE.

Yakupov IS BURE.

 

[JA]

Yakupov IS BURE.

The only similarity is that he wears #10 as a tribute to Bure.

Nail Yakupov plays nothing like Pavel Bure. Their styles differ significantly. Nail doesn't move around a lot with the puck; he's a shooter who seems to stand around the net and at the right faceoff circle looking for one-timers. His game has thus far had little do with speed or possession; as of now, it's all about shooting the puck from a stationary position. Yakupov isn't a very quick player, and he has no rush game for the most part. I think he scored his first breakaway goal this year.

 

[Siludin]

Today, Bure would be Kessel.

Gaborik is closer but even he is getting old.

 

[JA]

Gaborik is closer but even he is getting old.

A closer comparable in the league is, in my opinion, Patrick Kane; from what I've seen of Vladimir Tarasenko, I also detect elements that remind me of Bure. I haven't seen enough of Tarasenko yet to fully gauge how similar he is to Bure, though; I'll be keeping an eye on him in the upcoming Blues playoff campaign. Of course, there are no perfect comparisons, and Bure possessed a combination of characteristics that nobody in the NHL currently has. For example, Kane is not a physical player nor is he particularly explosive. Crosby's balance and lower body strength may be comparable. Bure was feisty. He is one of the fastest skaters of all time too. Nobody in the league right now has that combination of hands, overall offense, hockey sense/anticipation, positioning, defense, physicality, strength, and skating ability. He was a unique player.

These are the reference videos to use for those who want a refresher on Pavel Bure's tendencies.

 

[lawrence]

Today, Bure would be Kessel.

You wish.

Pavel bure was not afraid of anyone. he was tough as hell, unlike Kessel who shys away from physicial play.

Pavel bure is deadliest goal scorer In hockey history. He also did it without the help of an elite centerman. It's too bad his knees injuries forced him to retire early.

 

[JA]

You wish.

Pavel bure was not afraid of anyone. he was tough as hell, unlike Kessel who shys away from physicial play.

Kessel doesn't even have a slap shot. There is no comparison between Kessel and Bure. They are not even remotely similar in style.



I see similarities to Bure's offensive game in Patrick Kane. It's the closest I've seen to Bure in the current league. His unorthodox positioning and tendency to cover a lot of ground in the offensive zone, his willingness to make things happen with the puck, and his nose for the net are similar. He is incredibly agile, which Bure also was. He is excellent at weaving around with the puck too. He has a fairly strong rush game. That said, as mentioned a few posts above, Bure possessed many characteristics that Kane does not have. I'll reiterate that Bure was a unique player; that combination of traits (skills, physical profile, hockey sense, personality [i.e. commitment to fitness, competitiveness]) is rare.

 

[lawrence]

Kessel doesn't even have a slap shot. There is no comparison between Kessel and Bure. They are not even remotely similar in style.



I see similarities to Bure's offensive game in Patrick Kane. It's the closest I've seen to Bure in the current league.

When Vancouver traded him, don taylor was asked will Vancouver ever have a player like him again, he said no and I agree. The will never be anyone like that ever again

 

[Mogo]

Nobody in the league currently can make everyone stand up when they get the puck past the redline like Bure did

Keep in mind that was also before the two-line pass was taken out

 

[biturbo19]

Honestly, he's a huge part of me becoming a life-long Canucks fan. He was...the guy. I cried like a baby when the Canucks lost in the cup finals that year when he could fire in that cup winning goal. I don't even think i understood how things worked...but man i was extremely distraut at that time. It entrenched me as a lifelilong Canucks fan. So that's something.


Although possible that's just endebting to a life of tragedy, idk.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Bure was a great great player. Better than ovechkin and crosby? No

 

[someguy44]

As much as this is a thread devoted to Bure - and deservedly so - IMO he just wasnt just quite on the same level as Ovi, honestly. VERY close, but just a bit back - and I've been watching since the early eighties.

I didn't take the time to search all of Ovi's goal youtube clips, but even just this top 10 TSN (this was from early in Ovi's career) highlight set (particularly the top 5) edges out Bure. I found that Bure's game was largely speed-based while Ovi had slightly more all-round skills and everything really. Again, not to take away from the Bure greatness that indeed was what it was - AMAZING - and was unfortunately cut short.

That wouldn't be my personal best top 10 Bure "goals/plays", but his number 5. 3 and 2 were amazing. I would only take your Ovechkin's #1 goal as comparable to those 3 plays. Bure made a lot of great plays that never ended up being goals so in terms of creativity, I easily take Bure over Ovcehkin. Only player I think was truly superior to Bure in terms of creativity would be Lemieux.

 

[Bossy573]

Nostalgia makes great players even greater.

This is true, but I said it at the time, and I will say it now: at his best Bure one of the 5 best offensive players I have ever seen. Had he played his entire career in New York or Toronto, this would be accepted without question as an established fact.

 

[BB1133]

Defensemen, and team defense for that matter, weren't anything like it is today. Neither was the goaltending. Bure was amazing, but those are factors to consider.

That made Bure extra electrifying in his day, but there were others who had that edge-of-your seat hype back then too ... Mogilny and Bondra are two that come to mind.

I'd say Tarasenko is a guy who fits that category right now. I can only imagine what it would've been like if he had poor defensemen and goalies trying to stop him on a nightly basis.

 

[livewell68]

Defensemen, and team defense for that matter, weren't anything like it is today. Neither was the goaltending. Bure was amazing, but those are factors to consider.

That made Bure extra electrifying in his day, but there were others who had that edge-of-your seat hype back then too ... Mogilny and Bondra are two that come to mind.

I'd say Tarasenko is a guy who fits that category right now. I can only imagine what it would've been like if he had poor defensemen and goalies trying to stop him on a nightly basis.

This is the same BS I keep hearing, I would like to see the reasoning behind this with actual evidence to back up this claim.

As for defensemen, Bure played in what is considered largely as the Golden Age of Elite defensemen. You had Bourque, Leetch, Chelios, Pronger, Coffey, Stevens, Niedermayer, Blake, Zubov, MacInnis and Lidstrom all playing and all were relatively in their primes when Bure was in his prime. All those defensemen were not just great offensively (in most cases) but also very mobile and were amazing defensively.

If anything, the defense (elite status speaking) is rather weak in today's NHL.

As for goalies being weak, Hasek, Brodeur, Roy, Cujo, Vanbiesbrouck, Dafoe, Kolzig, Belfour all say hello.

These claims are utter nonsense. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that goalies, defenses and defensive strategies are better in today's NHL. Also goalies played 70 + games regularly and still put up those great numbers they did.

All goalies do now is go down and take up the entire bottom half of the net, and since players like Ovechkin and Stamkos exploit this now, if Jagr, Bure, Selanne, Karyia, Lindros, Sakic, Lemieux (all amazing shooters) were playing in their prime in today's NHL, they would exploit these weaknesses to no end.

Until someone can actually explain to me why a very old, very slow and heavy Jagr is still a very good 2nd or 1st line player in the NHL today (with this so called harder NHL today) then all these claims will be just nonsense.

 

[TOGuy14]

I think a lot of people need to remember that Bure played in a different game as well.

How many fewer goals would Ovi have if the two line pass still existed and he couldn't cherry pick as often?