Coach Discussion: Paul Maurice Pt II, The gooder, the badder, the uglier.

[Whileee]

The PK is designed to push shots to the side, top of the circle, and that's what they do for the most part. A lot of teams have a left-focused "one-timer" option (unlike the Jets and Caps), which probably explains that. But all of the Jets D appear to be negating opportunities from around the net very well.

 

[kelsier]

The "roster is so talented a trained monkey could coach it" analysis is easily the thinnest and most transparent of all the arguments.

Laughable really.

[Pretty] much any person with professional knowledge of hockey and background with training would be able to do what P.Mo is doing with all these tools at disposal. If you are disagreeing with me or the other poster about re-uniting the ELL then why don't you just say so [mod]. Being pro-Maurice is one thing, but even most of Maurice's supporters can identify his weaknesses. I wish that was the case here, so that an actual healthy debate would be possible.

 

[AWSAA]

Would love to hear PoMo's rationale for continuing to play Ehlers on the left side of the PP. That drove me nuts in last year's playoffs. You take away his shooting angles, the threat to curl off the boards and cut to the middle by playing him in that spot. He should be the top scorer on that unit. Why not play him where he'd be most effective?

 

[Whileee]

Would love to hear PoMo's rationale for continuing to play Ehlers on the left side of the PP. That drove me nuts in last year's playoffs. You take away his shooting angles, the threat to curl off the boards and cut to the middle by playing him in that spot. He should be the top scorer on that 2nd unit. Why not play him where he's best?

Because they don't have anyone else that can play that role as a passing and shooting threat very well. When Vesalainen is on that PP Ehlers will be the setup man a la Wheeler, but more dynamic and a better shooter.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

[Pretty] much any person with professional knowledge of hockey and background with training would be able to do what P.Mo is doing with all these tools at disposal. If you are disagreeing with me or the other poster about re-uniting the ELL then why don't you just say so [mod]. Being pro-Maurice is one thing, but even most of Maurice's supporters can identify his weaknesses. I wish that was the case here, so that an actual healthy debate would be possible.

There is no debating complete nonsensical silliness like that of your first sentence. A healthy debate relies heavily on both parties basing their opinions on a certain level of reality, which can be debated as long as both parties acknowledge those realities.

Your idea of debating is making silly statements aimed at painting this picture of futility, and when someone pokes holes in your factless points, you make even sillier statements to belittle the persons previous post. Its a smart way of deflecting from the actual reality of the debate.

Pretty much no one can coach at the NHL level, as there are only 31jobs available and only the best ones get chosen. To make such agrand statement that anyone could do his job if they had his tools, you must have a high level coaching background.

Please share with us as to what makes you a coaching expert? What tools are you talking about? What aspects of the Job Paul Maurice does that anyone could do? Please tell us things that makes you such an expert that allows you to make such strong statements about the position.

Lets have a healthy debate as you say, starting with you backing that statement up.

 

[Jets 31]

How can we be one of the best teams in the NHL and people think we are being held back by Maurice ? If we were a .500 team never getting better then i would be on the get rid of Maurice train because we have alot of talent on this team . We did awesome last season and look to be on our way to another , Maurice deserves some credit doesn't he ?

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

How can we be one of the best teams in the NHL and people think we are being held back by Maurice ? If we were a .500 team never getting better then i would be on the get rid of Maurice train because we have alot of talent on this team . We did awesome last season and look to be on our way to another , Maurice deserves some credit doesn't he ?

Some do not base their opinions on results, or counter good results with the irrefutable belief we can always be better. It can never be denied or verified.

When we win, they applaud the player, lose its because of coaching. Heck, they will even criticize the wins, we won but we didn’t do this or that well, which is on the coach.

It seems we are so far removed from our losing days, that winning should be taken for granted because we do it regularly now.

 

[Jets 31]

Some do not base their opinions on results, or counter good results with the irrefutable belief we can always be better. It can never be denied or verified.

When we win, they applaud the player, lose its because of coaching. Heck, they will even criticize the wins, we won but we didn’t do this or that well, which is on the coach.

It seems we are so far removed from our losing days, that winning should be taken for granted because we do it regularly now.

Yes exactly , i get giving criticism if the team is struggling but not when we are one of the top teams in the league . I guess if we had any other coach we would be undefeated right now .

 

[ps241]

Yes exactly , i get giving criticism if the team is struggling but not when we are one of the top teams in the league . I guess if we had any other coach we would be undefeated right now .

Every tenured coach takes heat from their home fans on HFBoards. Honestly it’s one of the few things in life we can count on with death and taxes.

 

[Maukkis]

How can we be one of the best teams in the NHL and people think we are being held back by Maurice ? If we were a .500 team never getting better then i would be on the get rid of Maurice train because we have alot of talent on this team . We did awesome last season and look to be on our way to another , Maurice deserves some credit doesn't he ?

Because Laine is on the second line. You know the answer.

 

[ffh]

[Pretty] much any person with professional knowledge of hockey and background with training would be able to do what P.Mo is doing with all these tools at disposal. If you are disagreeing with me or the other poster about re-uniting the ELL then why don't you just say so [mod]. Being pro-Maurice is one thing, but even most of Maurice's supporters can identify his weaknesses. I wish that was the case here, so that an actual healthy debate would be possible.

Maurice gave the reason the other day why he played Laine with Lowry and Tanev for awhile there. Switching the top 2 lines again doesn't mean Maurice doesn't know what he is doing it means you don't understand what he is doing. Most of these criticisms are more player based then team based. I like a certain player and this move effects him and I don't like it. Regardless if it's best for the team.

 

[LowLefty]

Can you explain how you know the difference?

Are you not able to tell when a player is slumping or not playing up to their usual level?
It wasn't all goal tending (IMO) -

 

[kelsier]

There is no debating complete nonsensical silliness like that of your first sentence. A healthy debate relies heavily on both parties basing their opinions on a certain level of reality, which can be debated as long as both parties acknowledge those realities.

Your idea of debating is making silly statements aimed at painting this picture of futility, and when someone pokes holes in your factless points, you make even sillier statements to belittle the persons previous post. Its a smart way of deflecting from the actual reality of the debate.

Pretty much no one can coach at the NHL level, as there are only 31jobs available and only the best ones get chosen. To make such agrand statement that anyone could do his job if they had his tools, you must have a high level coaching background.

Please share with us as to what makes you a coaching expert? What tools are you talking about? What aspects of the Job Paul Maurice does that anyone could do? Please tell us things that makes you such an expert that allows you to make such strong statements about the position.

Lets have a healthy debate as you say, starting with you backing that statement up.

Now this interesting and actually entertaining. You do understand that you just quite casually commented that someone exposed the validity of my statements yet all I've read is punch of takes trying to discredit me instead of even bothering to scrutinize the actual case I've brought up. To clarify further, would you like to actually point out these so called earlier comments that have entirely exposed the actual agenda? Please go ahead and show me. Furthermore I'm sure since you so clearly disagree with my assessments and pointed out the lack of data, why don't you follow it up by explaining how in your opinion (along with actual facts you were so eager to bring out) re-building the ELL helps this team?

There must be hundreds if not thousands of coaches in the NA alone. Like I've said so many times, the majority of those coaches would likely be able to achieve similar if not better results as Maurice, who struggles to understand the concept of line chemistry and overlooks the actual data, resulting into re-runs after re-runs of pointless utilization of key players, where none of them compliment each other. I'm quite certain most of the coaches would give up with a line that doesn't produce even after some 3/4(?) season worth of tryouts. To include or declare Maurice as one of the "best ones" sounds ludicrous at best, like seriously. What would you think a random hockey fan would think after getting results from google by "for most losses by NHL coach"?

I never claimed to be an expert and I certainly have never coached any team. But if even a normal person can see a pattern that isn't working out and yet it gets forced time and time again. That certainly doesn't raise the level of trust of competence speaking of certain person making the calls. That brings us to the matter of who's actually making these calls in the begin with and is the room owned by the captain or by the coach? If it's the former, that just doesn't fair well in the grand scheme of things. The coach should always be in charge without giving anyone any special treatments, yet somehow that doesn't seem to have been the case with P.Mo considering all the mistakes his overlooked by the vets without doing anything about them over the past years. As for other aspects in coaching in general, like forming up strategies and getting the most out of the assets and having far superior core of players to work with, losing to an expansion team in the Conference finals seems like a farce. If the Jets couldn't beat inferior group like the Vegas, why should we expect any better going after the Stanley Cup this season?

Now there's nothing I like more than a healthy two-way street debate, so please go ahead and provide the answers and why don't you go ahead and explain us all why you think differently, what makes P.Mo such a great coach and perhaps you can even elaborate the lack of creativity if not flat out refusal to explore other avenues as far as line utilization goes? After all they had the entire pre-season to try all kinds of things.

 

[kelsier]

Maurice gave the reason the other day why he played Laine with Lowry and Tanev for awhile there. Switching the top 2 lines again doesn't mean Maurice doesn't know what he is doing it means you don't understand what he is doing. Most of these criticisms are more player based then team based. I like a certain player and this move effects him and I don't like it. Regardless if it's best for the team.

Yeah I can certainly admit I have no frigging idea what is going inside that man's head most of the times. And in a way I suppose I'm glad that's the way it is/remains.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Now this interesting and actually entertaining. You do understand that you just quite casually commented that someone exposed the validity of my statements yet all I've read is punch of takes trying to discredit me instead of even bothering to scrutinize the actual case I've brought up. To clarify further, would you like to actually point out these so called earlier comments that have entirely exposed the actual agenda? Please go ahead and show me. Furthermore I'm sure since you so clearly disagree with my assessments and pointed out the lack of data, why don't you follow it up by explaining how in your opinion (along with actual facts you were so eager to bring out) re-building the ELL helps this team?

There must be hundreds if not thousands of coaches in the NA alone. Like I've said so many times, the majority of those coaches would likely be able to achieve similar if not better results as Maurice, who struggles to understand the concept of line chemistry and overlooks the actual data, resulting into re-runs after re-runs of pointless utilization of key players, where none of them compliment each other. I'm quite certain most of the coaches would give up with a line that doesn't produce even after some 3/4(?) season worth of tryouts. To include or declare Maurice as one of the "best ones" sounds ludicrous at best, like seriously. What would you think a random hockey fan would think after getting results from google by "for most losses by NHL coach"?

I never claimed to be an expert and I certainly have never coached any team. But if even a normal person can see a pattern that isn't working out and yet it gets forced time and time again. That certainly doesn't raise the level of trust of competence speaking of certain person making the calls. That brings us to the matter of who's actually making these calls in the begin with and is the room owned by the captain or by the coach? If it's the former, that just doesn't fair well in the grand scheme of things. The coach should always be in charge without giving anyone any special treatments, yet somehow that doesn't seem to have been the case with P.Mo considering all the mistakes his overlooked by the vets without doing anything about them over the past years. As for other aspects in coaching in general, like forming up strategies and getting the most out of the assets and having far superior core of players to work with, losing to an expansion team in the Conference finals seems like a farce. If the Jets couldn't beat inferior group like the Vegas, why should we expect any better going after the Stanley Cup this season?

Now there's nothing I like more than a healthy two-way street debate, so please go ahead and provide the answers and why don't you go ahead and explain us all why you think differently, what makes P.Mo such a great coach and perhaps you can even elaborate the lack of creativity if not flat out refusal to explore other avenues as far as line utilization goes? After all they had the entire pre-season to try all kinds of things.

Lol, you did nothing to back the claim, you continue to argue your points, not mine, and you are one dimensional in your assessment.

You continue to argue the point anyone could coach this team to similar results, provide absolutely zilch in terms of backing that statement up, other than “you are quite certain”, lol, which means what exactly?

You never coached, you have ZERO insight in to what makes a good coach, therefore your certainty means absolutely nothing. It only proves you are your biggest supporter.

Once again, your only ability in debating Maurice is to circle over how you want your favourite player to be utilized. It’s transparent and very one dimensional.

Maurice is a very good coach though, runs the 2nd best power play unit in the league which must mean his usage is getting excellent results , supported by actual results, not pretend certainty.

He also has coached us to 2nd place in the league, to a conference finals, one of the best offensive teams in the league, all supported by the standings and stats, not my beliefs.

That is why my certainty is so so so much stronger than your certainty.

 

[Analyst365]

Who's the greatest NHL coach of all time? Whoever it is, you could pick apart his decision making if you zoom into every period of every game, if you wanted to. That would be petty though.

 

[kelsier]

Lol, you did nothing to back the claim, you continue to argue your points, not mine, and you are one dimensional in your assessment.

You continue to argue the point anyone could coach this team to similar results, provide absolutely zilch in terms of backing that statement up, other than “you are quite certain”, lol, which means what exactly?

You never coached, you have ZERO insight in to what makes a good coach, therefore your certainty means absolutely nothing. It only proves you are your biggest supporter.

Once again, your only ability in debating Maurice is to circle over how you want your favourite player to be utilized. It’s transparent and very one dimensional.

Maurice is a very good coach though, runs the 2nd best power play unit in the league which must mean his usage is getting excellent results , supported by actual results, not pretend certainty.

He also has coached us to 2nd place in the league, to a conference finals, one of the best offensive teams in the league, all supported by the standings and stats, not my beliefs.

That is why my certainty is so so so much stronger than your certainty.

It's borderline amusing hearing this preach about dimensions and non-factual based presentation over the topic, while you cannot even come up with simple answers to simple questions. Now I'm not going to even bother to point out what you specifically said but instead I'll just quote you so there'll be no misunderstandings:

Your idea of debating is making silly statements aimed at painting this picture of futility, and when someone pokes holes in your factless points, you make even sillier statements to belittle the persons previous post.

Then I asked you to provide whatever glaring "holes" were presented that would shake the foundation from my statements from the earlier posters/comments and you couldn't come up with even just one single example. Geez, why am I not that surprised.

So you are telling me that I've no insight or whatever because I've never coached a team. Could I ask you what makes you such a professional that you can judge and present verdicts on the matter or have you coached yourself? Furthermore I'm talking about team and your talking about me. Okay, would you mind clarifying what this actually has to do with this so called "healthy debate" you were so eager to have? You did not only avoid my questions regarding the decisions made by the coach, but you quite entirely managed to avoid elaborating pretty much every single point I brought up. Is the ELL topic too hot to handle or what is this about exactly? No takes on that whatever? I'll be more than happy to discuss the matter with factual data included. After all, that is where the whole conversation started as I'm sure you know by now.

Yes I'm sure every single Jets poster here is well aware that the powerplay is working. When you have four elite forwards in one unit and one of these happen to (again) lead the league in PP goals, it's kind of hard not to get good results and tons of goals. I didn't even check but I'd be willing to bet Wheelers either leads in PP assists or at least is top 3 so that's certainly no concern. Should P.Mo be considered a genius because he has maybe the best shooter in the league he can utilize? Don't think so. Should he be considered great coach because the team was so deep even last year that it didn't matter if second line sucked and they still didn't lose many games? Don't think so. I guess no comment in regards to how it was possible to lose to a team with maybe max two star players in the roster in a seven game series. Oh well, at least I asked. What about, getting even better 5vs5 play and results, be more inventive and sometimes try new things (that could help along the way, like in the playoffs for instance)? Nah, heck why bother!

It certainly is great that you're so certain but at the same time it's kind of amusing because you started this entire thing by "finding" and gleaning to some factual flaws in my statements and not only were you able to provide what exactly these findings were, but now your "certainty" apparently beats mine and this is supposed to be some kind of deciding factor. Sure thing!

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

It's borderline amusing hearing this preach about dimensions and non-factual based presentation over the topic, while you cannot even come up with simple answers to simple questions. Now I'm not going to even bother to point out what you specifically said but instead I'll just quote you so there'll be no misunderstandings:



Then I asked you to provide whatever glaring "holes" were presented that would shake the foundation from my statements from the earlier posters/comments and you couldn't come up with even just one single example. Geez, why am I not that surprised.

So you are telling me that I've no insight or whatever because I've never coached a team. Could I ask you what makes you such a professional that you can judge and present verdicts on the matter or have you coached yourself? Furthermore I'm talking about team and your talking about me. Okay, would you mind clarifying what this actually has to do with this so called "healthy debate" you were so eager to have? You did not only avoid my questions regarding the decisions made by the coach, but you quite entirely managed to avoid elaborating pretty much every single point I brought up. Is the ELL topic too hot to handle or what is this about exactly? No takes on that whatever? I'll be more than happy to discuss the matter with factual data included. After all, that is where the whole conversation started as I'm sure you know by now.

Yes I'm sure every single Jets poster here is well aware that the powerplay is working. When you have four elite forwards in one unit and one of these happen to (again) lead the league in PP goals, it's kind of hard not to get good results and tons of goals. I didn't even check but I'd be willing to bet Wheelers either leads in PP assists or at least is top 3 so that's certainly no concern. Should P.Mo be considered a genius because he has maybe the best shooter in the league he can utilize? Don't think so. Should he be considered great coach because the team was so deep even last year that it didn't matter if second line sucked and they still didn't lose many games? Don't think so. I guess no comment in regards to how it was possible to lose to a team with maybe max two star players in the roster in a seven game series. Oh well, at least I asked. What about, getting even better 5vs5 play and results, be more inventive and sometimes try new things (that could help along the way, like in the playoffs for instance)? Nah, heck why bother!

It certainly is great that you're so certain but at the same time it's kind of amusing because you started this entire thing by "finding" and gleaning to some factual flaws in my statements and not only were you able to provide what exactly these findings were, but now your "certainty" apparently beats mine and this is supposed to be some kind of deciding factor. Sure thing!

I seriously do not have the time to disect some of the absurdity above, but I will address one of your mindless claims, that having 4 high level offensive players should make a powerplay automatic. There are several teams that ice top level power plays, with high end talent, that are not automatically better than us. Many struggle.

We have the number one power play in the league, so the simple fact is Maurice is coaching the best producing power play in the league, and nothing you state diminishes theses facts. You provide nothing to support your narrative other than your beliefs which are so much weaker than the reality of us having the best power play in the league.

You are completely and utterly wrong, and the stats fully support that. You will never be right, nor will not have an argument either, untill we fall out of the top 3 at minimum.

Dont bother replying with another book long rant how your beliefs mean something, as stated earlier, to have a healthy debate you need to accept realities, base your opinions off of realities, not your beliefs.

Your only argument is that because we have skilled players, that is the only reason Maurice is coaching us to tops in the league, the fact we have the best powerplay is because of the players. The best part is you believe we should mess with the number one power play to appease you?

 

[kelsier]

I seriously do not have the time to disect some of the absurdity above, but I will address one of your mindless claims, that having 4 high level offensive players should make a powerplay automatic. There are several teams that ice top level power plays, with high end talent, that are not automatically better than us. Many struggle.

We have the number one power play in the league, so the simple fact is Maurice is coaching the best producing power play in the league, and nothing you state diminishes theses facts. You provide nothing to support your narrative other than your beliefs which are so much weaker than the reality of us having the best power play in the league.

You are completely and utterly wrong, and the stats fully support that. You will never be right, nor will not have an argument either, untill we fall out of the top 3 at minimum.

Dont bother replying with another book long rant how your beliefs mean something, as stated earlier, to have a healthy debate you need to accept realities, base your opinions off of realities, not your beliefs.

Your only argument is that because we have skilled players, that is the only reason Maurice is coaching us to tops in the league, the fact we have the best powerplay is because of the players. The best part is you believe we should mess with the number one power play to appease you?

Why would you make such absurd statement without no way of backing it up? I don't buy for a second when I hear "I don't have the time..." then see chapter after chapter of written text after. Won't you at least be man enough to admit that such statements that would've somehow exposed the validity of my earlier comments never existed instead of coming down short with excuses? When you attack someone's credibility, that's the kind of thing you better be prepared to answer for.

I'm not going to go on the detail about this excellent powerplay because it's been dealt with already, but I can assure you that if other teams had playmaking winger like Wheeler on the wall, then Scheifele (in the middle) and Laine on the opposing wall, both ready to shoot the puck, it doesn't take a genius to make that work. You essentially have two world class shooters and one excellent puck distributor on the play. P.Mo can pretty much sit back and enjoy the fireworks. By the way, as far as narratives go, yours seem to change on the fly cause just an hour or so ago we had the second best powerplay and now we have the best powerplay.

So I'm horribly or utterly wrong by saying that ELL doesn't work? M'kay. So I'm completely wrong to even suggest that maybe, just maybe, they should try another things for a change? Do you actually need data to prove that ELL is dysfunctional or can't you see with your own eyes (I do expect that you do actually watch these games)? As I said, I can deliver any day, but again, you throwing insults or scream how wrong someone is without nothing to show for (aside the opinion) doesn't really get you too far. I'm not planning to start shooting back blank bullets, but it does kind of amaze me that someone first attacks a content on a basis of it having no factual support and then continues to argue by personal opinions instead of facts (well other than team rank and PP). Oh and whenever did I ever even mention anything about messing or changing anything of that powerplay, like seriously?

Yeah, I clearly haven't talked about anything but skilled players and terrible coach while haven't provided any reasoning, insights or underlying factors. Nor have I asked any questions or been patient enough to get answers. Sorry, going to do better the next time around! Cheers!

 

[YWGinYYZ]

"The gooder, the badder, the uglier."

Mostly the uglier, apparently.

Closing this down to allow people to cool off a bit. Quit arguing with each other - when the thread is re-opened, address points presented only, or the thread will stay closed (or the offenders removed from the thread or sub-forum).