Coach Discussion: Paul Maurice Pt II, The gooder, the badder, the uglier.

[ffh]

Not to mention being a statistical drag on the players he shares the ice with as opposed to the other.

as far as %CF between petan and Lemieux or and other players you want to compare advanced stats with just know they are no where near as meaningful as some would think. have heard enough interviews with coaches and gm's and all say the same thing. its the eye test that they determine who they prefer as a player. if its a close call then they may look at advanced stats to break the tie. obviously not a close call at the moment. the same advanced stats said 2 years ago petan should have been 3rd line centre over lowry and tanev was a below replacement level player.

 

[surixon]

You talk about being the voice of reason regarding Maurice, yet your examples are not reasonable.

You have 1 actual factual point, Petan over Lemieux, which you have tried to translate in to Maurice not being a solid developmental coach. Your example is very very weak, because we have watched Petan and Dano struggle for years at the NHL level, 100 plus games for both, to know that neither is shown enough to cement any spot on any NHL lineup.

You say everyone can improve, absolutely, but you are also trying to portray the areas of needed improvement as examples of Maurice’s incompetence as a coach. As stated name me another coach that has graduated more prospects into the league since 2014, than Maurice?

You say he sticks to the same players, stating “Some players have changed” on our 4rth line, yet ALL our players changed on that 4rth line, from a vet 4rth line last season to as green of a 4rth line as you will ever find in the NHL this season.

Do you see how you sound?

You take bits and bites of information that support your narrative while you ignore the ample examples that refute or contradict it.

One of the worst games our 4rth line played this season was with Petan on it, and had Lemiuex been in for that game, we all know the amount of ammo you would have generated from it. Gritty players deserve chances to develop and improve in the game as much as softer players that play a more skilled game. Petan has had ample opportunity, and just because you believe he is a better option than Lemieux, neither have earned anything to this point. Petan less, since he has had 5x the amount of opportunity that Lemieux has had to this point in their careers.

Once again you are clearly not reading half of what im writing and putting words into my mouth. I have said he is very good development coach on numerous occasions, given him heaps of praise for the job hes done with Morrissey, Laine, Copp etc... I have not called him incompetent once so I have clue were you are getting that from. All I'm saying is that there is player type, skilled but not overly gritty that he struggles with finding a role for/developing.

I would have thought that you would have been smart enough to realize that when I was talking about the fourth line I was talking player "type" as well as usage and not necessarily about who the players were. Maurice has always liked a gritty player on that line whether it be a vet in Hendricks or Thor or a young guy in Lemieux. That is a constant. He has historically put other younger players there like Armia, Roslovic Appelton etc but you'll you'll notice that all these players have a similiar attributes where they forecheck hard and have above average size.

Interesting enough but Lemieux was also in the lineup that game and on that line or did you forget? And for the record I don't blame Lemieux for It, the blame lies mostly with Roslovic who played an awful game and made numerous errors.

Anyhow please stop falsely accusing me of being a Maurice hater and saying he's incompetent. If you want to argue my individual points fine, but you are making numerous inferences about me and my view point that are just not true.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

Once again you are clearly not reading half of what im writing and putting words into my mouth. I have said he is very good development coach on numerous occasions, given him heaps of praise for the job hes done with Morrissey, Laine, Copp etc... I have not called him incompetent once so I have clue were you are getting that from. All I'm saying is that there is player type, skilled but not overly gritty that he struggles with finding a role for/developing.

I would have thought that you would have been smart enough to realize that when I was talking about the fourth line I was talking player "type" as well as usage and not necessarily about who the players were. Maurice has always liked a gritty player on that line whether it be a vet in Hendricks or Thor or a young guy in Lemieux. That is a constant. He has historically put other younger players there like Armia, Roslovic Appelton etc but you'll you'll notice that all these players have a similiar attributes where they forecheck hard and have above average size.

Interesting enough but Lemieux was also in the lineup that game and on that line or did you forget? And for the record I don't blame Lemieux for It, the blame lies mostly with Roslovic who played an awful game and made numerous errors.

Anyhow please stop falsely accusing me of being a Maurice hater and saying he's incompetent. If you want to argue my individual points fine, but you are making numerous inferences about me and my view point that are just not true.

Ok, sorry if I am putting words in your posts, but as well, I am extending enough intelligence to grasp what you are posting.

There are plentiful examples of gritty players carving out long productive careers in the NHL, probably more so than middling skilled players that don't quite have the top end skill to be productive at the NHL level.

With 11 games under his belt prior to this season, compared to Petan's 100 plus games, which player do we have a much much better understanding of?

While some want to instantly compare Lemieux to Thorbs, because that is what this board does, with 24 games under his belt, you, nor I have an understanding of what Lemieux could be. With over 100 games played by Petan, I have a much much better understanding of what he is, and to date, I have not seen an NHL player.

So , because Maurice is a very good coach, he is extending the same opportunity he gave Petan, to see what Lemeiux could develop into. That is just what a smart coach does. Just because you do not like the style he plays, that really matters little in this scenario. Maurcie has seen enough of Petan to KNOW that he is not in love with what he brings to that 4rth line.

And there is a reason most, if not all NHL teams have a grittier type player playing on their 4rth lines, its because it works. we could swap out Maurice for Scotty Bowman, and I bet we still see Lemieux penciled on that 4rth line over Petan.

 

[Jack722]

Listening back to the Chris Butler interview, as well as a couple of others I've recently heard from players on struggling teams, it got me thinking about an area that Maurice has done really well in, imo. Those guys talk about their teams being mentally fragile, which is exactly what this team was when Maurice took over, they fell like a house of cards in a light breeze anytime something didn't go their way, they lacked the belief that they were good enough to overcome mistakes or bad breaks.

They are the exact opposite of that now and most of that was built last season. The Jets may be guilty of sitting back at times, but I never get the impression they do it because they are afraid to make a mistake or lose. They play fearlessly and most of the time with an aggression and belief in what they do. They are a talented bunch, which obviously helps, but their confidence in their game and what they are doing is what makes them an elite team. I think it's trait shared by the top 5-6 teams in the league, it separates them.

Agree totally. This is something Maurice deserves credit for. Our team has belief and a great room and that isn't just on the players.

 

[surixon]

Ok, sorry if I am putting words in your posts, but as well, I am extending enough intelligence to grasp what you are posting.

There are plentiful examples of gritty players carving out long productive careers in the NHL, probably more so than middling skilled players that don't quite have the top end skill to be productive at the NHL level.

With 11 games under his belt prior to this season, compared to Petan's 100 plus games, which player do we have a much much better understanding of?

While some want to instantly compare Lemieux to Thorbs, because that is what this board does, with 24 games under his belt, you, nor I have an understanding of what Lemieux could be. With over 100 games played by Petan, I have a much much better understanding of what he is, and to date, I have not seen an NHL player.

So , because Maurice is a very good coach, he is extending the same opportunity he gave Petan, to see what Lemeiux could develop into. That is just what a smart coach does. Just because you do not like the style he plays, that really matters little in this scenario. Maurcie has seen enough of Petan to KNOW that he is not in love with what he brings to that 4rth line.

And there is a reason most, if not all NHL teams have a grittier type player playing on their 4rth lines, its because it works. we could swap out Maurice for Scotty Bowman, and I bet we still see Lemieux penciled on that 4rth line over Petan.

The issue I have with the game splayed argument is that 80 of Petan's 100 games came within his first two pro seasons at a time he clearly wasn't ready for the NHL. Heck he made the team out of camp as a 20 year old pro rookie. He played more NHL games then AHL games those two seasons. He should have been in the AHL getting big minutes and growing his game like all the other players you mentioned.

Look at how the other players have been developed.

Roslovic spent a year and a half in the AHL developing before he got brought up.

Appelton a year and a quarter.

Lemieux two full seasons

The org should have treated Petan the same instead of having him sit for those years. I look at this year as somewhat of a reset because he finally got an extended period of time in the AHL last year in a role he was suited for and was able to grow his game and confidence.

 

[Ducky10]

Petan was a good player and effective in the games he played on the 4th line with the Jets this season, better than Lemieux imo. Just because Maurice apparently sees something he doesn't like in Petan and sees something he likes in Lemieux doesn't make him right, it just points to his preferences.

If people feel the Jets need what Maurice says Lemieux brings to the lineup and it make sense because it apparently works (whatever that means), well most NHL coaches used to employ designated face punchers once upon a time, because apparently it worked.

My take is the Jets could benefit by having more skill on it's 4th line, particularly with how little they play (another problem, but I digress), it partly should take advantage of their depth. Matching grit with grit is just dummying the team down to the level of the opposition, countering it with more skill strikes me as more of a potential advantage. With as much as Perreault-Roslo- Petan were outplaying their opposition, it's highly likely over a larger sample that would have started to pay dividends on the scoreboard, for some reason Maurice decided it wasn't going to. I think he's wrong.

 

[Whileee]

It's interesting ppl mention Dano as he was on waivers and yet no other teams took a chance on him. Colorado only wanted 6 games and then they were done. That's Dano this year who to my eye looks much better than last years Dano.

Dano's development was hampered by a lack of fitness / quickness. That seems pretty obvious to me.

Postma? When you realize that Maurice highly values defensemen that are able to restrict chances around the danger areas. Postma was not good at that, though he was good in other areas.

 

[Ducky10]

The issue I have with the game splayed argument is that 80 of Petan's 100 games came within his first two pro seasons at a time he clearly wasn't ready for the NHL. Heck he made the team out of camp as a 20 year old pro rookie. He played more NHL games then AHL games those two seasons. He should have been in the AHL getting big minutes and growing his game like all the other players you mentioned.

Look at how the other players have been developed.

Roslovic spent a year and a half in the AHL developing before he got brought up.

Appelton a year and a quarter.

Lemieux two full seasons

The org should have treated Petan the same instead of having him sit for those years. I look at this year as somewhat of a reset because he finally got an extended period of time in the AHL last year in a role he was suited for and was able to grow his game and confidence.

It's amazing how often this is overlooked when discussing Petan. He was misused by the Jets early on, they were hoping he would fill a role for them in 2016 that he clearly wasn't ready for and it's set him back until this year. He's played decently well this year and I really don't get what those who say he doesn't look like an NHL player are watching. His year in the A last season helped him tremendously and it's visible when you watch him. Judging him by his first 80 games is pretty unfair AFAIC

I know, I know, gotta take advantage of your opportunities, yada yada yada.

 

[surixon]

Dano's development was hampered by a lack of fitness / quickness. That seems pretty obvious to me.

Postma? When you realize that Maurice highly values defensemen that are able to restrict chances around the danger areas. Postma was not good at that, though he was good in other areas.

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Which is why I have some reservations about just how much rope Niku will get on this team moving forward under Maurice.

 

[Whileee]

Which is why I have some reservations about just how much rope Niku will get on this team moving forward under Maurice.

If Niku doesn't get a bit more Morrissey in his game defensively, he's not going to be trusted with a top 4 role with the Jets.

 

[surixon]

If Niku doesn't get a bit more Morrissey in his game defensively, he's not going to be trusted with a top 4 role with the Jets.

Agreed, I just find annoying that he will trust Chariot there when Chariot has many of the deficiencies in his game. Ditto for Morrow

 

[ffh]

It's amazing how often this is overlooked when discussing Petan. He was misused by the Jets early on, they were hoping he would fill a role for them in 2016 that he clearly wasn't ready for and it's set him back until this year. He's played decently well this year and I really don't get those who say he doesn't look like an NHL player are watching. His year in the A last season helped him tremendously and it's visible when you watch him. Judging him by his first 80 games is pretty unfair AFAIC

I know, I know, gotta take advantage of your opportunities, yada yada yada.

wow. judging petan after 80 games is unfair but judging Lemieux after 20 is fair. heard retired nhl player on xm say when he was drafted a couple of player from the q like him who were 1st rounders and scored well over 100 points knew their game would not translate and changed it so they could have a career in the league . I mean the very 1st year. he also said lots of players like them refuse to change and never make it. petan needed to start to play like pageau 2 years ago but he still thinks he is a skilled player at this level . he is not.

 

[Ducky10]

wow. judging petan after 80 games is unfair but judging Lemieux after 20 is fair. heard retired nhl player on xm say when he was drafted a couple of player from the q like him who were 1st rounders and scored well over 100 points knew their game would not translate and changed it so they could have a career in the league . I mean the very 1st year. he also said lots of players like them refuse to change and never make it. petan needed to start to play like pageau 2 years ago but he still thinks he is a skilled player at this level . he is not.

I'm only judging Lemieux and Petan's play based on what I've seen so far this year, and so far I see Petan as the more useful player going forward. I think he's been better.

If you want to keep going back 2 seasons, have at 'er.

 

[Whileee]

Agreed, I just find annoying that he will trust Chariot there when Chariot has many of the deficiencies in his game. Ditto for Morrow

I'm not a fan of Chiarot, but he's demonstrably better at limiting other teams shot attempts from dangerous areas than Postma was.

 

[surixon]

I'm not a fan of Chiarot, but he's demonstrably better at limiting other teams shot attempts from dangerous areas than Postma was.

Do you happen to have his charts from those years handy?

 

[Ducky10]

Today's Morrissey wasn't the Morrissey we saw in his first season with the Jets and wasn't trusted with a top 4 role either. Morrissey was in a better situation in that the Jets weren't as competitive that year and he was allowed to grow into his role. Unfortunately Niku isn't getting much of an opportunity in any role this season, which is too bad considering how long Kuli was on the shelf for. I thought he showed signs of improvement in the few games he did play, I imagine a dozen or so more would have helped.

 

[surixon]

Today's Morrissey wasn't the Morrissey we saw in his first season with the Jets and wasn't trusted with a top 4 role either. Morrissey was in a better situation in that the Jets weren't as competitive that year and he was allowed to grow into his role. Unfortunately Niku isn't getting much of an opportunity in any role this season, which is too bad considering how long Kuli was on the shelf for. I thought he showed signs of improvement in the few games he did play, I imagine a dozen or so more would have helped.

I think Morrissey was on the top 4 in terms of ES usage his rookie year but wasn't trusted to play special teams until 3/4 of the way through the year when he started getting a regular shift on the PK.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

The issue I have with the game splayed argument is that 80 of Petan's 100 games came within his first two pro seasons at a time he clearly wasn't ready for the NHL. Heck he made the team out of camp as a 20 year old pro rookie. He played more NHL games then AHL games those two seasons. He should have been in the AHL getting big minutes and growing his game like all the other players you mentioned.

Look at how the other players have been developed.

Roslovic spent a year and a half in the AHL developing before he got brought up.

Appelton a year and a quarter.

Lemieux two full seasons

The org should have treated Petan the same instead of having him sit for those years. I look at this year as somewhat of a reset because he finally got an extended period of time in the AHL last year in a role he was suited for and was able to grow his game and confidence.

I agree Petan would have been better served spending a full 2 seasons in the A, over bouncing between the A and NHL. He has never taken a big step in his development, and I am sure this has something to do with it.

But players have to fight through that, it has happened to many players thru the history of the NHL, players to good to be AHL players, but not skilled enough to crack the starting lineup at the NHL level. Some players handle it the right way, learn on the fly and use practices as best they can to develop, while they wait for their shot.

One thing I saw early with Nic, his draft +1 when he played at the World Jr. that made me weary of his demeanor. It was the gold medal game, the game after he scored his hat trick. He was on the top line with McDavid, and in that first period, he had 3 really awful shifts. What I saw from the point on was a player that tried to force his game when it was not working. He held on to the puck way to often, made bad decisions and was taken off that line for the next 2 periods. On the 3rd line for the rest of the game, he continued to try and force his game when it was clearly not working for him.

After that game I thought to myself, how will this kid handle things not going his way at the NHL level. IMO he has somewhat continued that trait into his NHL career. He has yet to figure out how to translate his skills into being a consistent NHL player, and to stop trying to fit his jr game into an NHL game.

A grittier player like Lemieux, while he might not have the higher skill Petan has, he can consistently bring an element to each and every game he plays. It is much easier to be a hard hitter, corner digger player than a skilled player consistently, which is why we tend to see that type of player on a 4rth line. Its easier to be a grinder for 10 minutes a night that to be a skilled play maker with similar minutes.

This is the first season where I have watched Nic and seen signs of an NHL player. I thought his last game played was one of his best. I have no issues with him being in the lineup over Lemieux, and vice versa. A case can be made for both, and just because you prefer one side to the other, doesnt make either wrong.

 

[surixon]

I agree Petan would have been better served spending a full 2 seasons in the A, over bouncing between the A and NHL. He has never taken a big step in his development, and I am sure this has something to do with it.

But players have to fight through that, it has happened to many players thru the history of the NHL, players to good to be AHL players, but not skilled enough to crack the starting lineup at the NHL level. Some players handle it the right way, learn on the fly and use practices as best they can to develop, while they wait for their shot.

One thing I saw early with Nic, his draft +1 when he played at the World Jr. that made me weary of his demeanor. It was the gold medal game, the game after he scored his hat trick. He was on the top line with McDavid, and in that first period, he had 3 really awful shifts. What I saw from the point on was a player that tried to force his game when it was not working. He held on to the puck way to often, made bad decisions and was taken off that line for the next 2 periods. On the 3rd line for the rest of the game, he continued to try and force his game when it was clearly not working for him.

After that game I thought to myself, how will this kid handle things not going his way at the NHL level. IMO he has somewhat continued that trait into his NHL career. He has yet to figure out how to translate his skills into being a consistent NHL player, and to stop trying to fit his jr game into an NHL game.

A grittier player like Lemieux, while he might not have the higher skill Petan has, he can consistently bring an element to each and every game he plays. It is much easier to be a hard hitter, corner digger player than a skilled player consistently, which is why we tend to see that type of player on a 4rth line. Its easier to be a grinder for 10 minutes a night that to be a skilled play maker with similar minutes.

This is the first season where I have watched Nic and seen signs of an NHL player. I thought his last game played was one of his best. I have no issues with him being in the lineup over Lemieux, and vice versa. A case can be made for both, and just because you prefer one side to the other, doesnt make either wrong.

The problem I have with this is that even with an element that you can bring more consistently, the only thing that it has accomplished this season is seeing the fourth line consistently outplayed game in and game out.

The fourth line has done noticeably better with Petan on it then it has with Lemieux. At the end of the day i would think the goal of the coach would be to dress the more effective line as it gives you the best chance of winning in the long run.

 

[Ducky10]

I think Morrissey was on the top 4 in terms of ES usage his rookie year but wasn't trusted to play special teams until 3/4 of the way through the year when he started getting a regular shift on the PK.

Couldn't recall if he was right out of the gate, but my memory isn't great for that detail going that far back. Either way, the smart defensive positional game we see Morrissey playing now was given ample time to develop.

 

[surixon]

Couldn't recall if he was right out of the gate, but my memory isn't great for that detail going that far back. Either way, the smart defensive positional game we see Morrissey playing now was given ample time to develop.

Exactly, while he was competent in his own end as a rookie it really wasn't until the back half of last year that he really started to excel at it. He's taken another step as both the offensive and defensive elements of his game have grown this year. I hope Maurice allows Niku yo grow into it as well. I don't expect Niku to start on the second pairing but consistent third pairing minutes would be a good start.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Couldn't recall if he was right out of the gate, but my memory isn't great for that detail going that far back. Either way, the smart defensive positional game we see Morrissey playing now was given ample time to develop.

I actually can't remember Morrissey ever not being ready once he made the NHL. He was always solid in his own end when he finally came up.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

The problem I have with this is that even with an element that you can bring more consistently, the only thing that it has accomplished this season is seeing the fourth line consistently outplayed game in and game out.

The fourth line has done noticeably better with Petan on it then it has with Lemieux. At the end of the day i would think the goal of the coach would be to dress the more effective line as it gives you the best chance of winning in the long run.

I just do not believe its as noticeable as you see it, quite similar IMO.

I actually thought Lemieux's last 3 games have been solid and he is trending in the right direction and have no issues with him in over Petan, or vice versa.

To be honest, neither of these player's usage reflects poorly or positively towards Maurice as a coach, they just are not that impactful, and most likely neither will move the meter on that scale much in their careers.

 

[LowLefty]

Petan was a good player and effective in the games he played on the 4th line with the Jets this season, better than Lemieux imo. Just because Maurice apparently sees something he doesn't like in Petan and sees something he likes in Lemieux doesn't make him right, it just points to his preferences.

This is similar to how most of us are reviewing these players as well - most of it is opinion or player type preference.
Debating this is a waste of time - no one's budging.

 

[Ducky10]

I actually can't remember Morrissey ever not being ready once he made the NHL. He was always solid in his own end when he finally came up.

Who said he wasn't ready? I said he was allowed to develop, which he has considerably from his 1st year.