Player Discussion: Patrik Laine

[Kaako Kappo]

Why cant him and Scheif ever be hot at the same time? Its always either the first line or Laine line, but never at the same time.

 

[Psych0dad]

I don't have any expectation that we will change lines, but I really wonder how Laine is being coached. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's right or wrong or even if this is happening.... but....

He seems to sit back so much most of the time, that he is almost a 3rd Dman sometimes. Watching on TV when Connor and Little are down low forechecking, I can't even see Laine in the picture sometimes. He can't be playing this way without being told to do that could he?

During his scoring streak, he seemed to be playing much deeper and focusing more on offence with his linemates, but then he's gone back to laying back again.

So my question is; Is he being asked to do that to focus on his defensive development at the expense of offense? We have a lot of scoring already, so is this simply development of a 20 year old?

Is this what would happen at the NHL level? I have no idea, I'm really just throwing this out for discussion because it pops into my mind sometimes when I'm watching him play.

Feel free to tell me it's ridiculous

Yeah it's definitely a coaching decicion to have him play that stay at home fwd. I understand it in a way, it's not really rational to put your best shooter behind the net because his major strength is putting the puck in the net and you can't do that from the wrong side of it.

But that's not how he would naturally play the winger position (didn't play it like that before Jets, he was playing as a full time fwd who plays with the puck a lot) , it's something they have visioned for him and asked him to play that way.

 

[Daximus]

Jets roster is much deeper than Colorados. We could have a CSL and ELW as top two lines. First line would rival Colorados first, second line should be a great second line compared to most others.

We could have a sharper tip of the spear and still be competitive with 4 lines. I don't think ELW would be bad, and if people do fear that line, you gotta keep in mind it's 21+ million a year for those players and they do need icetime. So if they aren't good enough for 2nd line, then we have to face some management mistakes and cancel our future parades.

That's the thing ELW likely would make us a worse team, that is a second line that most teams can easily handle. We don't have to cancel the parade if we just spread out the offence. Sure it might mean Laine might not score 50+ goals but it also means we win games as even though CLL or ELL isn't great they still have the opportunity to outscore their opposition.

 

[Psych0dad]

Why cant him and Scheif ever be hot at the same time? Its always either the first line or Laine line, but never at the same time.

Put them together and they will both be better than they have been, more consistent too.

 

[Daximus]

I understand your point of view, BUT

1. Laine + Chef + X are more than the sum of their parts, and would have the potential to be the best line in the league

2. The pieces below are much, much better than mediocre. We could still ice a 1b line with Connor/Ehlers, Wheeler and Little.

I just don't think that line outscores their opp without Laine.

Think about this.

Scheif and Laine otuscore their opp by 2 goals a game.

But Little Wheeler get outscored by 3 goals a game.

How many games are we winning. Sure Little and Wheeler used to have chemistry but that was the days the dinosaurs roamed and life was much simpler. Because we always lost.

 

[Daximus]

Why cant him and Scheif ever be hot at the same time? Its always either the first line or Laine line, but never at the same time.

Depending on how you look at it that can be a good thing. If they are always hot together then they are bound to run cold together at the same time. Meaning we lose games in bunches.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Depending on how you look at it that can be a good thing. If they are always hot together then they are bound to run cold together at the same time. Meaning we lose games in bunches.

Yeah, obviously it can be good. It's just strange.

 

[Daximus]

I also think there is merit in separating them based purely on the fact that they are scorers first and foremost. MacK is the primary scorer for his line. Rantanen is the primary passer and Landeskog does the dirty work. So who gives up scoring goals between Laine and Scheif? I've heard that Scheif likes playing with Wheels because he is the primary triggerman. Wheels is Scheifs Rantanen.

I think you'll have a hard time telling Scheif to be the backseat driver for Laine. This may not even be a purely coaching decision. Scheif might just prefer playing with Wheeler as he gets more scoring chances doing so.

 

[Psych0dad]

That's the thing ELW likely would make us a worse team, that is a second line that most teams can easily handle. We don't have to cancel the parade if we just spread out the offence. Sure it might mean Laine might not score 50+ goals but it also means we win games as even though CLL or ELL isn't great they still have the opportunity to outscore their opposition.

If a guy who can barely hit 20 goals a season (with a bunch of empty netters) takes up 20+ minutes, and a guy who can routinely do 50+ goal pace takes 16 minutes of icetime, there's something rotten in that scenario. Dropping Wheeler to 2nd line wouldn't make him a 0 goal scorer, and even if it did, it could still be worth the trade off. Because both Laine and Scheifele would be MORE productive than so far.

If people really fear that an 8,5 million a year captain of the team in his late prime can't successfully pull of 2nd line duties, then I think there's been some mistakes made in extension talks. If that was the fear, then term and money were way too high.

And it doesn't serve the teams interests to keep more productive players behind others because you fear that the current 1st liner might disappear out of the picture if not served the optimal situation. It's certainly worth testing. But yeah, not holding my breath. Just have to keep pointing out the obvious, until something changes.

 

[Psych0dad]

I also think there is merit in separating them based purely on the fact that they are scorers first and foremost. MacK is the primary scorer for his line. Rantanen is the primary passer and Landeskog does the dirty work. So who gives up scoring goals between Laine and Scheif? I've heard that Scheif likes playing with Wheels because he is the primary triggerman. Wheels is Scheifs Rantanen.

Scheifele AND Laine would both score more goals together than they do now separated. And even if they didn't, if the totals were like 40 and 65, it's certainly far better for the team than 50 and 15 (which is what we might get with current 1st line pairing).

Scheifele and Laine already showed what they can do together in first season, briefly. Scheifele lead the league in points, Laine in goals.

Current usage of Laine will get him around 50 goals again, but there's SO MUCH MORE available if used right.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Yeah it's definitely a coaching decicion to have him play that stay at home fwd. I understand it in a way, it's not really rational to put your best shooter behind the net because his major strength is putting the puck in the net and you can't do that from the wrong side of it.

But that's not how he would naturally play the winger position (didn't play it like that before Jets, he was playing as a full time fwd who plays with the puck a lot) , it's something they have visioned for him and asked him to play that way.

When I watch games pre-NHL, he was a completely different player. Dominant, fast and aggressive. He looks totally different now. That's why I think it has to be a coaching decision for him to play like this, which would be very odd to do to this type of player.

 

[Psych0dad]

When I watch games pre-NHL, he was a completely different player. Dominant, fast and aggressive. He looks totally different now. That's why I think it has to be a coaching decision for him to play like this, which would be very odd to do to this type of player.

Yeah his style was totally changed when Maurice started coaching him. I watched him outside of NHL too and he played LW and with a wingers positioning. I find it a mistake and a waste to try and put him in some mold Maurice wants him in, but that's beating a dead horse.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

It'll be so exciting to follow his inevitable growth & what he can become once he gets his physical and mental side to where he wants it to be. Right now this kid really doesn't need more than 1-2 average/decent scoring chances and he'll put the puck in the net, unless he's slumping / unlucky. When he learns how to handle the unfortunate games a bit better and is able to create 1-2 more scoring chances for himself per night, sky is the limit. And i really do believe that development like this is inevitable, it's just a question of maturing and growing up. He's 21, weren't Winnipeg fans crapping their pants about Scheifele and his skating when he was that age? And look at him now. Obviously some things require his own will to be better, but i don't think he's lacking in that department. Plus if he ever learns to use that long stick of his like the best two way players do, he'll be a nightmare on backcheck too.

 

[RageQuit77]

This season alone:

PP Wheeler's assists to Laine 7+1
EV Wheeler's assists to Laine 1+1

Wheeler Goals 4 EV + 1 SH
Wheeler PP assists total 14+4
Wheeler EV assists total 12+9

No Laine's assists to Wheeler's goals.

No doubt there would be more goals (and assists) for both of them if they would play on same line. Laine and Laine's goals boosts Wheeler's scores considerably during those brief stints in PP, and if I recall correctly those EV assists are from situations where PP was just ended and both of them were still on ice for PP, even on paper PP was already over. Of course Laine needs those good passes to get more goal scoring opportunities, and Wheeler is perfect guy for that.

Wheeler's score could be even higher if he would play with Laine also on even strength situations, making him even better playmaker he is...

 

[RageQuit77]

Fast cut-and-paste graph. I decided to add shooting volume data over SOG columns in scale 1:1, regardless of minor loss of information due resolution of the graph. SOG sample increases that fast it becomes soon relatively stable and I don't think it is particularly useful draw its curve with insane detail. Maybe some kind 10GP-20GP 'rolling block' would display longer term trends more accurately, but not sure is it worth of all work needed.

This curve will be added in a future career stats graph updates. Routinely.

 

[Neuf]

Microsoft Windows Paint (for graph), Notepad (for essential data tables and lists), and Calculator (for calculations) programs from the system default folder 'Windows Accessories'. So, there are absolutely nothing special computer, mathematical, or statistical skills involved to this project. It's just how to visualize basic stats in way they are more informative and readable than walls of numbers on a table/sheet, and derivated pace stats (Career and Season S%) are very easy to calculate and draw after every game, game by game (tho I do updates usually after 5-10GPs). Kind of pixel art.

Using Windows basic tools are rather slow and ineffective way to do these kind stuff, but it's my Hockey and Laine fandom related hobby, so it can take some effort and time.

Currently calculating (and soon drawing) Patrik's cumulative career SOG/GP / shooting volume -curve (at least for every season separately), as it's interesting to see more accurately how that stat has evolved over his career.

Add: For example, Patrik's Rookie season SOG/GP listing (just calculated for the graph update):



That's the calculated raw data. Then I just think good place and scale for the curve on the graph, and draw it using Paint. List itself gives already idea how shooting volume average evolve over the season, but curve gives better overview. Curve will be on the graph either on the SOG columns, or then drawn with other curves using scaling factor x10 for it (for keeping the graphs overall readability good).

I enjoy your graphs and tried to do something similar in Excel and couldn't do it. Figured you must be using a fancy tool .

Tip of the hat to using the basics!

 

[Romang67]

This thread is about to go the way of the dodo.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

That's true! Other side of the story is then the proportion of all assists that came for to Wheeler only and only after Patrik was able to put a puck in the net, right?

There are some proportion in those 93 more assists too. Mostly PP assists, mostly primary.

We all here are capable of grasping various things, one is that people here is not particularly concerned how many assists Patrik Laine may or may not score. It's not his primary job anyways. We are usually more concerned about goals (that in 100% of cases produce assists related to them. Passes and plays leading to a goal is of course different topic.).

Btw. Laine's assists score is low also because guys have had tendency to miss his sauces, and ring bars...

No doubt having a finisher like Laine on the end of your passes will improve your assists, and surely Wheeler has benefited from it.

But if you believe Laine would be near the goal scorer he is today, without having someone like Wheeler, dropping those beautiful saucer passes through 3 defenders sticks, on the button for Laine to finish, then you are not grasping the complete picture either.

You can talk primary assists, power play benefits ect...but I have watched each and every goal Laine has scored off a Wheeler pass, and I can state without any doubt, Laine would still be chasing 100 goals well in to this season if Wheeler didn’t play for this team.

 

[Jet]

When I watch games pre-NHL, he was a completely different player. Dominant, fast and aggressive. He looks totally different now. That's why I think it has to be a coaching decision for him to play like this, which would be very odd to do to this type of player.

I've said this over and over again.

Laine has not been the same since that devastating hit. We saw a really nice flash of it in the Finnish games.

When he uses his speed and attacks, he protects the puck so much better. I feel like he stops a lot more, tries to stickhandle from a near standstill and gets the puck knocked away much more.

 

[jetsfanpei]

Would anyone be willing to part with the laine pennant from the game the other night and ship to P.E.I.? I will pay for shipping

 

[Psych0dad]

No doubt having a finisher like Laine on the end of your passes will improve your assists, and surely Wheeler has benefited from it.

But if you believe Laine would be near the goal scorer he is today, without having someone like Wheeler, dropping those beautiful saucer passes through 3 defenders sticks, on the button for Laine to finish, then you are not grasping the complete picture either.

You can talk primary assists, power play benefits ect...but I have watched each and every goal Laine has scored off a Wheeler pass, and I can state without any doubt, Laine would still be chasing 100 goals well in to this season if Wheeler didn’t play for this team.

That's another one we have to disagree on. Jets PP is exceptional due to the quality of shooters. There was a very good article on that in The Athletic.

Crossing the ice with a saucer on PP is in the toolbox of most NHL players, even would go as far as to say it's a requirement of professional hockey.

Every player in the Jets roster can execute that pass, but some are better at it than others. Wheeler is one of the best ones in the Jets, but the majority of the goals Laine scores come from a distance that is considered extremely low danger area. The reason why 4 player PK collapses to guard the slot traditionally, is that it's always been smarter to block shots from close distance and allow teams to move the puck on the outside.

Laine changes that dynamic in hockey. He is more dangerous from the "easy to pass to, near impossible to score from" area than anyone else, he is even more dangerous from that distance than Scheifele is from the middle of the slot, the best possible shooting area.

The PK cheats towards Laine, because their teams analytics tell them that it's their best bet. Laine remains the primary threat even in distance so their coverage has to open up somewhere. In the playoffs we saw teams allowing Scheifele to take shots from mid slot rather than leaving the lane to left point (Laine) open.

Now the PKs have realized that putting pressure on Wheeler might be their best bet. And they are right, last couple of weeks everyones been doing it to Jets and PP1 has been lame. If Jets have learned from it, they will use Connor behind the net more and Buff to distribute to Laine. Wheeler needs to go those routes to get the puck out from their pressure.

 

[Bob E]

Scheifele and Laine at times could not be defended. I remember one game versus the Leafs in Toronto. Laine just needed a little open space and Scheifele would find him. Bang. In the net.

Defender was right there, the goalie read it, but still they couldn’t defend it.

Unbelievable.

Wheeler can’t do that. Works hard, makes nice passes at times, but can’t do what Laine can. In his defense, most players can’t.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

That's another one we have to disagree on. Jets PP is exceptional due to the quality of shooters. There was a very good article on that in The Athletic.

Crossing the ice with a saucer on PP is in the toolbox of most NHL players, even would go as far as to say it's a requirement of professional hockey.

Every player in the Jets roster can execute that pass, but some are better at it than others. Wheeler is one of the best ones in the Jets, but the majority of the goals Laine scores come from a distance that is considered extremely low danger area. The reason why 4 player PK collapses to guard the slot traditionally, is that it's always been smarter to block shots from close distance and allow teams to move the puck on the outside.

Laine changes that dynamic in hockey. He is more dangerous from the "easy to pass to, near impossible to score from" area than anyone else, he is even more dangerous from that distance than Scheifele is from the middle of the slot, the best possible shooting area.

The PK cheats towards Laine, because their teams analytics tell them that it's their best bet. Laine remains the primary threat even in distance so their coverage has to open up somewhere. In the playoffs we saw teams allowing Scheifele to take shots from mid slot rather than leaving the lane to left point (Laine) open.

Now the PKs have realized that putting pressure on Wheeler might be their best bet. And they are right, last couple of weeks everyones been doing it to Jets and PP1 has been lame. If Jets have learned from it, they will use Connor behind the net more and Buff to distribute to Laine. Wheeler needs to go those routes to get the puck out from their pressure.

I cannot argue your logic lacking assumptions based off your beliefs. The simple fact you do not see that cross ice feed through the seems and traffic, on a regular bases is because majority of the players cannot make that pass.

You act as though we dont watch NHL games regularly to make such factless statements as fact. Your argument looses all validity when you start making up facts in order to diminish the strength of the player, it just flushes down the drain.

 

[Psych0dad]

I cannot argue your logic lacking assumptions based off your beliefs. The simple fact you do not see that cross ice feed through the seems and traffic, on a regular bases is because majority of the players cannot make that pass.

You act as though we dont watch NHL games regularly to make such factless statements as fact. Your argument looses all validity when you start making up facts in order to diminish the strength of the player, it just flushes down the drain.

Well it was my opinion as stated. You don't have to agree with it but there's nothing wrong in me stating my opinion.
Would be more constructive if you singled out what parts you disagree with.

 

[1OApick]

No need to be hyperbole. Laine will soon score again and his compete level will rise. His overall game is much more complete. Kings game was not good but other games been fantastic in december also.