Player Discussion: Patrik Laine

[Farmboy Patty]

So it's very subtle sandbagging then?

Sorry: I just don't buy it. People are obviously free to believe what they want, but it's really, really stretching things to assume that they'd want to screw with one of their best assets. Easier to keep him happy and deal with cap issues later through other means. The Jets are already a cap team, so the only thing this would help them with is balancing the roster, not cost savings. Just don't see this as being realistic.

But that's what they are doing, isn't it? They are screwing with Laine. For some reason he is being kept from first line minutes although he is the best goal scorer on a deep team while playing low minutes on a dysfunctional line.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

But that's what they are doing, isn't it? They are screwing with Laine. For some reason he is being kept from first line minutes although he is the best goal scorer on a deep team while playing low minutes on a dysfunctional line.

That's one interpretation, sure. Note that I also think that it would be good to shuffle the lines around, but I think it's an incredible stretch to think that they've got the lines setup the way they are specifically to "screw with" Laine.

If you want to discuss how you feel the lines should be setup / changed, I'd suggest taking the discussion here: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/how-to-fix-the-jets-2nd-line-problems.2554359/unread

 

[Ducky10]

Does it seem like laine isn't improving?

Hit or miss in certain areas tbh.

 

[Ducky10]

But it IS all he needs. He doesn’t have anything to prove with scoring 80 in his first two seasons, and he’s getting better organically without having to take a stint at 4th line to learn to grind. Did you see how he fared with Stastny and Copp at center? Stastny’s gone so try Copp there again. Oh, and he also needs ice time, like half of the team does.

Disagree, also, enough with the learn to grind stuff. If that's your interpretation it's useless discussing it with you.

 

[kelsier]

So it's very subtle sandbagging then?

Sorry: I just don't buy it. People are obviously free to believe what they want, but it's really, really stretching things to assume that they'd want to screw with one of their best assets. Easier to keep him happy and deal with cap issues later through other means. The Jets are already a cap team, so the only thing this would help them with is balancing the roster, not cost savings. Just don't see this as being realistic.

Subtle? Last season maybe. Today it's downright transparent.

That's one interpretation, sure. Note that I also think that it would be good to shuffle the lines around, but I think it's an incredible stretch to think that they've got the lines setup the way they are specifically to "screw with" Laine.

If you want to discuss how you feel the lines should be setup / changed, I'd suggest taking the discussion here: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/how-to-fix-the-jets-2nd-line-problems.2554359/unread

Over the past years we have some actual real data that people seem ignore or just laugh at whenever I've tried to point it out, but could someone instead explain their own opinions how or why these things have come to past (rather than just ridiculing the post as usual)?

16-17: Laine fighting Matthews for the Calder and they're neck and neck maybe 15-20 left (can't remember the exact number) and Jets are officially out of the playoffs. Instead of aiding Laine and to win at least something, even it's not "for the team" why not let Laine finish with Scheifele as opposed to having him struggle with Little? Why not win at least something for the fans?

17-18: The management outright ignores whatever problems the ELL has for a period of half a frigging season. When they finally do something about it and Laine out from nowhere enters the race for the Rocket, he gets no extra boost from his team and quite literally is the last person they let on the ice in the dying minutes of the game when the team has 2 goal lead and the net is empty. Meanwhile in Washington Ovy gets injured in one of the final games, but he gets tossed into the ice when the net is empty just to score a goal.

18-19 By now the Jets must have figured out that ELL doesn't work and Little is absolute worst center you could play Laine with. I mean there's tons and tons of data. What happens? Not only is Laine playing with Little, but he's also averaging not even his last year's average (16:31) aTOI but something like 15+ minutes. Did they really ever even explore all the possible combos during the pre-season (like playing him with Roslovic)? Don't think so.

And these are just some of the examples. It's seemed like they don't want him to win any personal hardware. Not yet at least (before they've signed an extention). After everything's said and done with, I see nothing subtle about this. This has been systematic type of management from the staff and the only reason I can think of is $. If someone has better explanation, I'd love to hear it.

Ps. Sorry nothing personal and I'm not trying to hijack your comments or anything but I think they present a good place to start and try unravel all of this.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

Over the past years we have some actual real data that people seem ignore or just laugh at whenever I've tried to point it out, but could someone instead explain their own opinions how or why these things have come to past (rather than just ridiculing the post as usual)?

I have explained my position on this, numerous times. We're not going to see eye to eye on it, so I don't feel like rehashing my position. I think it's a ... stretch. You're welcome to believe differently, but there are other explanations for the TOI that I find more plausible.

Again I proffer: I do think we should consider shuffling the lines, but I attribute none of it as a remedy to sandbagging a particular player - it simply should be explored. Maurice needs to be a bit more flexible before the team finds itself in trouble. CSW is good, but not so good that it shouldn't be shuffled to strengthen other lines.

If you'd like, continue the line discussion here: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/how-to-fix-the-jets-2nd-line-problems.2554359/unread

 

[QuietContrarian]

I am just waiting for the Toronno threads about Laine vs. Matthews since Austin already has 10 goals, they love to do that kinda shit.

Don’t know if either Laine or Ehlers are getting sandbagged, but their situation is not ideal, that’s for sure.

Chef is taking way to long shifts, think PoMo should tell him, might make up just a little toi.

right now, as insane as it sounds, our depth is hurting us, PoMo needs to find a way to utilize all players best, both in terms of toi and line combos’

Laine is a superstar in the making, and something is getting to him...

 

[Vekke]

Is his usage some kind of cap management?
If he‘d score 50+ goals and would be PPG, his next contract would be 80m+ and couldn‘t fit under the cap without trading away a good young player.
But if he scores only 30+ goals and 45 points, he might agree to a bridge deal.

How could you achieve that?
Give him less minutes than promised and a center he can‘t play with.

Honi soit qui mal y pense...

It cant’t be a cap management issue because Jets have done everything wrong cap management wise. Little, Wheeler, Connor and (Ehlers). It almost seem as they are trying pay as much that it is possible.

It might be a bit harsh statement but Laine would deserve a proper management and coaching. I have fell in love with Jets but they are making it hard by being totally clueless at the back office.

 

[Duke749]

It would be nice to discuss Laine himself without all the conspiracy crap and literally discussing how bad everyone else around Laine is from management down to the players. All this crap has literally made it impossible to actually talk about Laine on this board. Yes, we get it, everyone is out to get Laine.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

It cant’t be a cap management issue because Jets have done everything wrong cap management wise. Little, Wheeler, Connor and (Ehlers). It almost seem as they are trying pay as much that it is possible.

It might be a bit harsh statement but Laine would deserve a proper management and coaching. I have fell in love with Jets but they are making it hard by being totally clueless at the back office.

114 pts and a 2nd place finish demonstrates that they're not *completely* clueless. I don't like a lot of their decisions either, but this is hyperbole.

 

[kelsier]

I have explained my position on this, numerous times. We're not going to see eye to eye on it, so I don't feel like rehashing my position. I think it's a ... stretch. You're welcome to believe differently, but there are other explanations for the TOI that I find more plausible.

Again I proffer: I do think we should consider shuffling the lines, but I attribute none of it as a remedy to sandbagging a particular player - it simply should be explored. Maurice needs to be a bit more flexible before the team finds itself in trouble. CSW is good, but not so good that it shouldn't be shuffled to strengthen other lines.

If you'd like, continue the line discussion here: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/how-to-fix-the-jets-2nd-line-problems.2554359/unread

We don't see eye to eye that much can be agreed. I just presented some facts along the way that made no real sense looking the entire picture from Laine's own perspective and to show that we're not only talking about what's happening today but throughout the last past two+ years, since there's quite a clear pattern.

Nonetheless, like I said everyone is welcomed to see things as they please and if someone comes into different conclusion(s), that by all means is fine. Also unlike some people suggest, talking about things related to cap hit and so called "conspiracy theories" have nothing to do with each other. They're just aspects teams take in account for in regards to how they choose to use their assets.

 

[KingBogo]

It would be nice to discuss Laine himself without all the conspiracy crap and literally discussing how bad everyone else around Laine is from management down to the players. All this crap has literally made it impossible to actually talk about Laine on this board. Yes, we get it, everyone is out to get Laine.

Its got to the point where you have to go to the main boards to have something approaching a rational discussion on Laine. And that includes reading through posts by love struck Matthews fans.

 

[Jack722]

I think it's very unlikely that they're sandbagging Laine.

First there's too much risk involved. If it's just something done from asset management perspective then the risk that you tick off Laine and make him want a trade is too great, or spoil negotiations for the future. Additionally if it ever got out that the org did things like this..?

Secondly they are doing the exact opposite with Connor, who is in a very good situation to maximize his talents.

Thirdly I think the simpler explanation is just the coaching dynamics. Laine is not anything close to a room leader. I'm getting the feeling that Maurice has a certain self-preservation strategy that has led to his long tenure in NHL coaching: make friends with the vets and room leaders and play the hell out of them.

I think his secondary attempt to keep people happy has been to play Laine with his buddy Ehlers.

 

[Deedog99]

Try Petan at centre between ehlers and Laine. Need to try something else early in the year.

 

[LowLefty]

Subtle? Last season maybe. Today it's downright transparent.




Over the past years we have some actual real data that people seem ignore or just laugh at whenever I've tried to point it out, but could someone instead explain their own opinions how or why these things have come to past (rather than just ridiculing the post as usual)?

16-17: Laine fighting Matthews for the Calder and they're neck and neck maybe 15-20 left (can't remember the exact number) and Jets are officially out of the playoffs. Instead of aiding Laine and to win at least something, even it's not "for the team" why not let Laine finish with Scheifele as opposed to having him struggle with Little? Why not win at least something for the fans?

17-18: The management outright ignores whatever problems the ELL has for a period of half a frigging season. When they finally do something about it and Laine out from nowhere enters the race for the Rocket, he gets no extra boost from his team and quite literally is the last person they let on the ice in the dying minutes of the game when the team has 2 goal lead and the net is empty. Meanwhile in Washington Ovy gets injured in one of the final games, but he gets tossed into the ice when the net is empty just to score a goal.

18-19 By now the Jets must have figured out that ELL doesn't work and Little is absolute worst center you could play Laine with. I mean there's tons and tons of data. What happens? Not only is Laine playing with Little, but he's also averaging not even his last year's average (16:31) aTOI but something like 15+ minutes. Did they really ever even explore all the possible combos during the pre-season (like playing him with Roslovic)? Don't think so.

And these are just some of the examples. It's seemed like they don't want him to win any personal hardware. Not yet at least (before they've signed an extention). After everything's said and done with, I see nothing subtle about this. This has been systematic type of management from the staff and the only reason I can think of is $. If someone has better explanation, I'd love to hear it.

Ps. Sorry nothing personal and I'm not trying to hijack your comments or anything but I think they present a good place to start and try unravel all of this.

Many posters have taken the time to explain other POV's on why Laine is playing where he is - but you do not listen to anyone if the opinion doesn't line up with either Little or the coach being the problem.

Here's another stab at it based on my opinion - and my opinion is usually pushing off where we stand today - in other words, Laine is playing with Little because:

The Jets want to add to Laine's skill set - in particular, they want to see him develop his puck possession game which includes a little board work and the cycle game that will allow him to better mesh with guys like Scheif. Before you go on to tell me he's been very successful with Scheif in the past, read the rest.

Little is a great player to learn the basics of the forecheck game - he's pretty good at it.

If you watch, you will notice Little is usually the first guy on the loose puck in the Ozone - and he's usually the only one. And this is on the rare occasion that the puck is dumped in on this line. Little usually loses the puck since he's getting zero help on the cycle - both Laine and Ehlers are waiting for the pass that doesn't come. (Little gets hammered for this a lot - why can't he set these guys up?).

The line driver, Ehlers, is usually the guy driving the play into the zone and then either losing it or trying to pass off to Laine. On the pass, you'll also find Laine covered since Ehlers always passes to Laine and every team knows that. The result is an intercepted pass or Laine takes the pass in a pile of traffic and then turns it over due to the 2 or 3 on one coverage.
When he loses it, you'll usually find he runs out of room and since his cycle game (or board game) is so weak, he can't get it back.

You'll also see Laine try to carry it on his own once in a while but that rarely works either because he's not a line driver and he usually loses the puck before he gets a shot off or he's trying to find Ehlers and everyone knows that. Now we're back to loss of possession in the Ozone with 2 of the 3 players not very good at getting it back.

The 3 options above are what usually takes place - what's missing?

The Jets are working with both these guys on their possession game - Maurice will call it their "compete" game from time to time.
He thinks he can help both players develop this very common trait (in today's game) in both players on a line other than the 1st.
He also knows that if he is successful, he will have a couple of very skilled guys he can throw out on the ice anytime - not just for scoring but for puck possession (why do you think CLT also get so much time) - he wants players that can control the game.

Scheif and Wheels do not want to play with players that do not know how to play the game this way - because that is how they play it.
Maurice is no going to ask 55 / 26 to completely change their game because his other talented players need to learn a new aspect.
It makes more sense to teach what is missing rather than change what is successful.

All of this is creating issues on the 2nd line - maybe because it's taking longer than it should. The slow progress is either because Little sucks and the coach is going about this all wrong - or - because it's difficult teaching this aspect of the game to players who have had very little exposure to it through their career.

There's nothing new in what I've typed above - this has all been argued.
My assumptions are based on our coach knowing what he is doing - and I'm drawing my own conclusions based on what is actually taking place within our line up.

If you don't believe any of this, then your assumptions are likely based on the coach being an idiot.
But why is he sticking with this plan - Maurice is not afraid to change up the lines - he's done it a ton in the past. So why isn't he doing it now? Because he's sticking with the plan that he knows, based on his expertise, is needed to get his high talent stars playing a more complete game.
Draft and Develop - they've preached this from the beginning and no one is exempt.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Jarri Kurri

Brett Hull

I see similarity with Laine.

I agree. He can certainly improve because he’s young, but his main talent is shooting and finishing. It’s foolish not to use it to its full potential while your cup window is open.

 

[KingBogo]

Jarri Kurri

Brett Hull

I see similarity with Laine.

Kurri and Hull were no where even close to being similar types of players. Kurri was called the Finnish Flash before in was bestowed on Teemu. He actually had a very complete game and was much more than just a trigger man. Hull could barely skate compared to most NHL players but could find open ice and shoot with the best of them.

 

[Jack722]

The Jets want to add to Laine's skill set - in particular, they want to see him develop his puck possession game which includes a little board work and the cycle game that will allow him to better mesh with guys like Scheif. Before you go on to tell me he's been very successful with Scheif in the past, read the rest.

Little is a great player to learn the basics of the forecheck game - he's pretty good at it.

If you watch, you will notice Little is usually the first guy on the loose puck in the Ozone - and he's usually the only one. And this is on the rare occasion that the puck is dumped in on this line. Little usually loses the puck since he's getting zero help on the cycle - both Laine and Ehlers are waiting for the pass that doesn't come. (Little gets hammered for this a lot - why can't he set these guys up?).

The line driver, Ehlers, is usually the guy driving the play into the zone and then either losing it or trying to pass off to Laine. On the pass, you'll also find Laine covered since Ehlers always passes to Laine and every team knows that. The result is an intercepted pass or Laine takes the pass in a pile of traffic and then turns it over due to the 2 or 3 on one coverage.
When he loses it, you'll usually find he runs out of room and since his cycle game (or board game) is so weak, he can't et it back.

You'll also see Laine try to carry it on his own once in a while but that rarely works either because he's not a line driver and he usually loses the puck before he gets a shot off or he's trying to find Ehlers and everyone knows that. Now we're back to lose of possession in the Ozone with 2 of the 3 players not very good at getting it back.

The 3 options above are what usually takes place - what's missing?

The Jets are working with both these guys on their possession game - Maurice will call it their "compete" game from time to time.
He thinks he can help both players develop this very common trait (in today's game) in both players on a line other than the 1st.
He also knows that if he is successful, he will have a couple of very skilled guys he can throw out on the ice anytime - not just for scoring but for puck possession (why do you think CLT also get so much time) - he wants players that can control the game.

Scheif and Wheels do not want to play with players that do not know how to play the game this way - because that is how they play it.
Maurice is no going to ask 55 / 26 to completely change their game because his other talented players need to learn a new aspect.
It makes more sense to teach what is missing rather than change what is successful.

All of this is creating issues on the 2nd line - maybe because it's taking longer than it should. The slow progress is either because Little sucks and the coach is going about this all wrong - or - because it's difficult teaching this aspect of the game to players who have had very little exposure to it through their career.

There's nothing new in what I've typed above - this has all been argued.
My assumptions are based on our coach knowing what he is doing - and I'm drawing my own conclusions based on what is actually taking place within our line up.

If you don't believe any of this, then your assumptions are likely based on the coach being an idiot.
But why is he sticking with this play - Maurice is not afraid to change up the lines - he's done it a ton in the past. So why isn't he doing it now? Because he's sticking with the plan that he knows, based on his expertise, is needed to get his high talent stars playing a more complete game.
Draft and Develop - they've preached this from the beginning and no one is exempt.

How many years do you suggest we give this line before this teaching method starts to take effect?

There are a few problems with your theory:

-The line has hardly been improving at all after 65 games together.

-The first line - who all play the style that Laine and Ehlers are supposedly learning at an elite level - aren't all that elite, and defensively suspect.

-Laine and Ehlers don't mesh with each other or Little in any real exciting way to begin with. This means there are less opportunities to make reads and big plays, and all you're left with is playing "coached".

Ehlers and Laine are geniuses and while they certainly CAN be coached, I don't believe that playing the hockey equivalent of running routes is the best thing for their development.

-Finally, there is absolutely no reason that Ehlers or Laine could not learn the NHL game and add other aspects to their game while playing more TOI and on a better working line. Do you think playing with Scheifele hurt their development? Do you think playing with Stastny hurt their development?

They are not factory workers, who hate their jobs and must be forced to attend company mandated training and if they don't they have their hours cut. They are creative players for whom the desire to win lives in every cell in their body. Play them where they can have the most success and they will learn the fastest, and be the most motivated. IMO.



I also don't think the coach is an idiot. I think you're right that he probably has ideas in mind. I'm not sure they are good ideas, and I do think the coach is limited and might have some major blind spots. And I think there is a chance he may be beholden to room leaders / vets, and that this is preventing him from maximizing results (both in terms of points AND player development).

 

[Howard Chuck]

Many posters have taken the time to explain other POV's on why Laine is playing where he is - but you do not listen to anyone if the opinion doesn't line up with either Little or the coach being the problem.

Here's another stab at it based on my opinion - and my opinion is usually pushing off where we stand today - in other works, Laine is playing with Little because:

The Jets want to add to Laine's skill set - in particular, they want to see him develop his puck possession game which includes a little board work and the cycle game that will allow him to better mesh with guys like Scheif. Before you go on to tell me he's been very successful with Scheif in the past, read the rest.

Little is a great player to learn the basics of the forecheck game - he's pretty good at it.

If you watch, you will notice Little is usually the first guy on the loose puck in the Ozone - and he's usually the only one. And this is on the rare occasion that the puck is dumped in on this line. Little usually loses the puck since he's getting zero help on the cycle - both Laine and Ehlers are waiting for the pass that doesn't come. (Little gets hammered for this a lot - why can't he set these guys up?).

The line driver, Ehlers, is usually the guy driving the play into the zone and then either losing it or trying to pass off to Laine. On the pass, you'll also find Laine covered since Ehlers always passes to Laine and every team knows that. The result is an intercepted pass or Laine takes the pass in a pile of traffic and then turns it over due to the 2 or 3 on one coverage.
When he loses it, you'll usually find he runs out of room and since his cycle game (or board game) is so weak, he can't et it back.

You'll also see Laine try to carry it on his own once in a while but that rarely works either because he's not a line driver and he usually loses the puck before he gets a shot off or he's trying to find Ehlers and everyone knows that. Now we're back to lose of possession in the Ozone with 2 of the 3 players not very good at getting it back.

The 3 options above are what usually takes place - what's missing?

The Jets are working with both these guys on their possession game - Maurice will call it their "compete" game from time to time.
He thinks he can help both players develop this very common trait (in today's game) in both players on a line other than the 1st.
He also knows that if he is successful, he will have a couple of very skilled guys he can throw out on the ice anytime - not just for scoring but for puck possession (why do you think CLT also get so much time) - he wants players that can control the game.

Scheif and Wheels do not want to play with players that do not know how to play the game this way - because that is how they play it.
Maurice is no going to ask 55 / 26 to completely change their game because his other talented players need to learn a new aspect.
It makes more sense to teach what is missing rather than change what is successful.

All of this is creating issues on the 2nd line - maybe because it's taking longer than it should. The slow progress is either because Little sucks and the coach is going about this all wrong - or - because it's difficult teaching this aspect of the game to players who have had very little exposure to it through their career.

There's nothing new in what I've typed above - this has all been argued.
My assumptions are based on our coach knowing what he is doing - and I'm drawing my own conclusions based on what is actually taking place within our line up.

If you don't believe any of this, then your assumptions are likely based on the coach being an idiot.
But why is he sticking with this play - Maurice is not afraid to change up the lines - he's done it a ton in the past. So why isn't he doing it now? Because he's sticking with the plan that he knows, based on his expertise, is needed to get his high talent stars playing a more complete game.
Draft and Develop - they've preached this from the beginning and no one is exempt.

I appreciate the detail of your post and I don’t argue against the idea that this is actually what is happening. I just think that we are in the hunt for the cup so it makes sense to optimize all of the individual talent we have and imo we don’t have anyone with more pure talent than Patrik. We shouldn’t be spending another year developing him into something different than he is.

If we could find that playmaking center for him he would regain his confidence and he would develop naturally. He’s into his third year, it’s time To allow him to help lead us further in our goal of a cup.

It’s like playing monopoly and you get boardwalk. That’s awesome but adding parkplace to it gives you more than the sum of its parts. We need to find our parkplace.

Everyone here knows that what we are doing isn’t taking full advantage of his talent, we just have different reasoning and different solutions. I think it’s time to take action and start trying different solutions. We are not going to with a cup with one line playing all the minutes.

 

[LowLefty]

How many years do you suggest we give this line before this teaching method starts to take effect?

There are a few problems with your theory:

-The line has hardly been improving at all after 65 games together.

-The first line - who all play the style that Laine and Ehlers are supposedly learning at an elite level - aren't all that elite, and defensively suspect.

-Laine and Ehlers don't mesh with each other or Little in any real exciting way to begin with. This means there are less opportunities to make reads and big plays, and all you're left with is playing "coached".

Ehlers and Laine are geniuses and while they certainly CAN be coached, I don't believe that playing the hockey equivalent of running routes is the best thing for their development.

-Finally, there is absolutely no reason that Ehlers or Laine could not learn the NHL game and add other aspects to their game while playing more TOI and on a better working line. Do you think playing with Scheifele hurt their development? Do you think playing with Stastny hurt their development?

They are not factory workers, who hate their jobs and must be forced to attend company mandated training and if they don't they have their hours cut. They are creative players for whom the desire to win lives in every cell in their body. Play them where they can have the most success and they will learn the fastest, and be the most motivated. IMO.



I also don't think the coach is an idiot. I think you're right that he probably has ideas in mind. I'm not sure they are good ideas, and I do think the coach is limited and might have some major blind spots. And I think there is a chance he may be beholden to room leaders / vets, and that this is preventing him from maximizing results (both in terms of points AND player development).

I'm not suggesting any time line - it's not my timeline.
I also don't see any problems with my theory - you disagreeing doesn't change that.

Like I said - this is my opinion. This has all been covered dozens of times and at this point, we are all pretty much settled in on how we see it.
BTW, I don't see any "problems" with your take - it just isn't anything like mine. Pretty much opinion

 

[LowLefty]

I appreciate the detail of your post and I don’t argue against the idea that this is actually what is happening. I just think that we are in the hunt for the cup so it makes sense to optimize all of the individual talent we have and imo we don’t have anyone with more pure talent than Patrik. We shouldn’t be spending another year developing him into something different than he is.

If we could find that playmaking center for him he would regain his confidence and he would develop naturally. He’s into his third year, it’s time To allow him to help lead us further in our goal of a cup.

It’s like playing monopoly and you get boardwalk. That’s awesome but adding parkplace to it gives you more than the sum of its parts. We need to find our parkplace.

Everyone here knows that what we are doing isn’t taking full advantage of his talent, we just have different reasoning and different solutions. I think it’s time to take action and start trying different solutions. We are not going to with a cup with one line playing all the minutes.

I appreciate your respectful reply and fully understand your take on this - it's a solid argument.
I'm not really arguing anything in my post - I'm just trying to lay out an angle that might explain the coaches reasoning - and you get that.
Do I also understand why some fans are frustrated waiting on Maurice to sort this out while a couple of our best players struggle? Absolutely.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I appreciate your respectful reply and fully understand your take on this - it's a solid argument.
I'm not really arguing anything in my post - I'm just trying to lay out an angle that might explain the coaches reasoning - and you get that.
Do I also understand why some fans are frustrated waiting on Maurice to sort this out while a couple of our best players struggle? Absolutely.

I suppose coaches have different approaches too. I remember laviolette last year saying he mixed things up every game before the playoffs because he had to try every combination to get the most out his team. I wish Maurice would do that because there are untried combinations that could be magic, but we will never know. He’s very conservative when putting lines together afraid of doing something poorly.

I would like to see us do a little experimenting on this home stand while we have some lesser competition, practice time and last change.

Never know what we get!

 

[kelsier]

Many posters have taken the time to explain other POV's on why Laine is playing where he is - but you do not listen to anyone if the opinion doesn't line up with either Little or the coach being the problem.

Here's another stab at it based on my opinion - and my opinion is usually pushing off where we stand today - in other works, Laine is playing with Little because:

The Jets want to add to Laine's skill set - in particular, they want to see him develop his puck possession game which includes a little board work and the cycle game that will allow him to better mesh with guys like Scheif. Before you go on to tell me he's been very successful with Scheif in the past, read the rest.

Little is a great player to learn the basics of the forecheck game - he's pretty good at it.

If you watch, you will notice Little is usually the first guy on the loose puck in the Ozone - and he's usually the only one. And this is on the rare occasion that the puck is dumped in on this line. Little usually loses the puck since he's getting zero help on the cycle - both Laine and Ehlers are waiting for the pass that doesn't come. (Little gets hammered for this a lot - why can't he set these guys up?).

The line driver, Ehlers, is usually the guy driving the play into the zone and then either losing it or trying to pass off to Laine. On the pass, you'll also find Laine covered since Ehlers always passes to Laine and every team knows that. The result is an intercepted pass or Laine takes the pass in a pile of traffic and then turns it over due to the 2 or 3 on one coverage.
When he loses it, you'll usually find he runs out of room and since his cycle game (or board game) is so weak, he can't et it back.

You'll also see Laine try to carry it on his own once in a while but that rarely works either because he's not a line driver and he usually loses the puck before he gets a shot off or he's trying to find Ehlers and everyone knows that. Now we're back to lose of possession in the Ozone with 2 of the 3 players not very good at getting it back.

The 3 options above are what usually takes place - what's missing?

The Jets are working with both these guys on their possession game - Maurice will call it their "compete" game from time to time.
He thinks he can help both players develop this very common trait (in today's game) in both players on a line other than the 1st.
He also knows that if he is successful, he will have a couple of very skilled guys he can throw out on the ice anytime - not just for scoring but for puck possession (why do you think CLT also get so much time) - he wants players that can control the game.

Scheif and Wheels do not want to play with players that do not know how to play the game this way - because that is how they play it.
Maurice is no going to ask 55 / 26 to completely change their game because his other talented players need to learn a new aspect.
It makes more sense to teach what is missing rather than change what is successful.

All of this is creating issues on the 2nd line - maybe because it's taking longer than it should. The slow progress is either because Little sucks and the coach is going about this all wrong - or - because it's difficult teaching this aspect of the game to players who have had very little exposure to it through their career.

There's nothing new in what I've typed above - this has all been argued.
My assumptions are based on our coach knowing what he is doing - and I'm drawing my own conclusions based on what is actually taking place within our line up.

If you don't believe any of this, then your assumptions are likely based on the coach being an idiot.
But why is he sticking with this play - Maurice is not afraid to change up the lines - he's done it a ton in the past. So why isn't he doing it now? Because he's sticking with the plan that he knows, based on his expertise, is needed to get his high talent stars playing a more complete game.
Draft and Develop - they've preached this from the beginning and no one is exempt.

Appreciate the long and thoughtful post and like I said, everyone is welcome to have their own views and it's a good thing.

Now since you are addressing an issue directly involved with the lines I suspect you should have brought these up in the lines discussion. But since this hasn't been migrated to another topic, I'll reply right here.

First of all, we've been talking about how everything is a learning process for one full year already (if not longer). "Laine needs to learn how to drive a line", "Laine needs to learn to play a two-way game", "Laine needs to learn to skate better" and the list goes on. He has proven himself time and time again that he CAN be super effective player when he is not playing with certain player. He's also at the point of development that one no longer can keep on piling up excuses why he has to play with player X to improve his overall level. With no changes, we would have this same discussion over and over for the next 10 years. When the piece of the puzzle does not fit in, you are going to break the puzzle by forcing it stick. That's not the way it works.

Ehlers is a great player when it comes down to zone entries but after he's in, that's where it stops. He's not a playmaker and once he hits the wall on the skates that's where it usually ends. He's a great player on the rush, but not when it comes down to cycling and right now Laine is better at actually protecting the puck in the O-zone. Little isn't exactly a playmaker either and when you have maybe the best shooter in the world, why would you not make the best out of his ability, cause Laine has proven himself to be an excellent 5vs5 player as well when he has someone that can make a little bit of extra space and has the ability to find him and that player doesnt' even have to be elite (case of Stastny). Currently it just doesn't work and you know why. Even Garrett himself said Little is no longer second line quality and when you hear that coming from someone that's expert on hockey statistics, you should heed the advice, especially when you can see it with your own two eyes. I actually hoped Little would work twice as hard this summer so that'd he'd return back to his old form but it seems he's losing the fight with time. He doesn't have the speed nor the strength to center the second line and loses almost every battle in the offensive zone.

We can waste a lot of time analysing their games but at the end it really is a waste of time and NHL isn't a player development league. Coaching staff can try and mix up things, try & test and scratch the ideas that don't work and keep the ones that do. Currently this isn't happening and for whatever reasons these lines are being kept intact with no major changes. You're basically basing the entire argument on a philosophy that a player should learn to adapt and be something that he isn't by applying the same course over and over until it finally clicks - which in this case would be a never-ending process. I just find it fundamentally wrong. It's not only bad for the player himself, but it's also bad for the team, because when something doesn't harvest positive results, it should simply not exist at all. Of course if the team was in a situation that it had simply no other choices or avenues, it'd be a whole another story but the Jets are one of the deepest teams in the league so you have tons of alternatives. When something doesn't work you try something else. It's not rocket science.

Last season it wasn't a problem having dysfunctional ELL because the team was so good that even without getting almost anything back from the second line, at least they weren't leaking and the team was winning. The Jets could actually afford to have them suck. We cannot take it for granted that it'll be the same once again and the management has completely failed since they haven't even attempted to optimize the lines. I actually think Maurice is mostly only following orders and isn't a complete idiot. No sane coach would play a line that can't score goals to safe their lives.

Anyway, I get what your trying to go after and that the end justifies the means, but there's too many flaws and I don't see how any of this is helping Laine to become the better player. You cannot expect excellent consistency from a guy who gets 15+ minutes ice time. The results speak for themselves.

 

[Ducky10]

So management is trying to simultaneously win the Stanley Cup and sandbag it's brightest young star so they don't have to pay him what he deserves?

Maurice needs to mix things up, but this isn't the reason he's not doing it.

 

[Ippenator]

I think it's very unlikely that they're sandbagging Laine.

First there's too much risk involved. If it's just something done from asset management perspective then the risk that you tick off Laine and make him want a trade is too great, or spoil negotiations for the future. Additionally if it ever got out that the org did things like this..?

Secondly they are doing the exact opposite with Connor, who is in a very good situation to maximize his talents.

Thirdly I think the simpler explanation is just the coaching dynamics. Laine is not anything close to a room leader. I'm getting the feeling that Maurice has a certain self-preservation strategy that has led to his long tenure in NHL coaching: make friends with the vets and room leaders and play the hell out of them.

I think his secondary attempt to keep people happy has been to play Laine with his buddy Ehlers.

I think you could seriously be on to something with this. Unfortunately if this is really the case here, then the situation is practically the worst possible, and nothing else but a coaching change can help the Jets. I don’t want to believe this though, because it would be the ultimate incompetent approach for leading a sports team. Spineless chickenshit coaching honestly. I after all really hope that it’s rather the asset management thing going on. Unfortunately I can really see this suspicion of yours really as reality after all.