Patrik Laine III: We’ve got questions, he’s got answers

[BB88]

Maybe when I have time, I'll look and see how many of those guys were top 10 in points those years or in adjacent years. I guess there's just more than points to me.

But yes, Jenner does need to be improved upon.

I didn’t mean points, I meant in their position.

Those are all franchise level C’s, Crosby/Malkin being even a tier higher.

The history is just too strong to support the idea of needing a true 1C to be able to win a Cup


Edit,
If we quickly look at post season production.

Point
23 points in 23 games
33 points in 23 games

ROR
23 points in 26 games

Kuznetsov
32 points in 24 games
(Backstrom 23 points in 20 games)


Crosby
27 points in 24 games
19 points in 24 games.
(Malkin
28 points in 25 games
18 points in 23 games)


All were either MVP or top3 for their team in value.

There’s just no way around it

 

[VT]

I didn’t mean points, I meant in their position.

Those are all franchise level C’s, Crosby/Malkin being even a tier higher.

The history is just too strong to support the idea of needing a true 1C to be able to win a Cup


Edit,
If we quickly look at post season production.

Point
23 points in 23 games
33 points in 23 games

ROR
23 points in 26 games

Kuznetsov
32 points in 24 games
(Backstrom 23 points in 20 games)


Crosby
27 points in 24 games
19 points in 24 games.
(Malkin
28 points in 25 games
18 points in 23 games)


All were either MVP or top3 for their team in value.

There’s just no way around it

But their partners are important too and Point played with Kucherov, for example.

 

[BB88]

But their partners are important too and Point played with Kucherov, for example.

Of course they are.

You need a team, with multiple elite/franchise players.

The point is the most valuable position in winning a Cup is 1C.

Which is also reason why they shouldn’t look into trading Laine.
Laine can be an extremely valuable asset for a team, not just from a #1 position. He can be an elite complinentary player

 

[Viqsi]

I’m not even sure they need a 1C , Jenner seems fine there. Maybe go for a more suitable skilled playmaking winger for Laine than Voracek instead ? I still haven’t seen Laine and Voracek having good chemistry. And not saying Voracek is bad, maybe they just aren’t a good fit together.

IMO that's Kent Johnson's role going forward; Voracek's the stopgap. If he can do it from center ice, all the better, but I'm going with the expectation that he's going to be a winger, myself.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

I know it’s not just Finns, But “Laine fans” do get called out a lot when people disagree with them. Sorry, maybe I’m imagining it.

Welcome! Everyone is welcome to join us as Columbus fans. We would love to have you here.

Post away, just understand there can be a lot of discussion and some differences of opinion. Some of us are more vocal than others in stating those opinions.

Please join in and add your thoughts to the conversation.

 

[NickyFotiu]

What a difference a season makes. Last season few wanted Laine. Now only a few teams would not want him. Great comeback.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Not sure if they need a 1C?

Since Ducks winning no team has won the Cup without a 1C, so I’d say that’s a pretty must have.

& Ducks had Getzlaf with 58 points and McDonald close to ppg at C.)

That Ducks team had Pronger, Niedermayer& Selanne to compensate.

edit
McDonald was around ppg C that year and Getlaz had 58 points

It was a different time. Getzlaff was absolutely a #1 C. Not only that, it was a loaded team with tremendous forward depth and one of the best blue lines in the modern era.

A 1C, a 94 point wing in Selanne, a great 1A/B in McDonald, a young franchise winger in Perry, a 69 point 2D?? who put up 84 points in Neidermeyer and Pronger who it seemed got lucky every year and his team ended up deep in the playoffs including Cup Finals in Edmonton, Anaheim (won) and Philly.

Yes like several other Cup champs, they had almost everything including A pair of #1 Cs.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

What a difference a season makes. Last season few wanted Laine. Now only a few teams would not want him. Great comeback.

I'm not sure about that. I think fans of many teams said they didn't want him. I can't imagine an NHL General Manager who wouldn't have wanted him.

Fortunately, we fans aren't GMs. Tampa did try that approach some years back with Brian Lawton and it didn't work at all so they hired Yzerman.

 

[majormajor]

I'm not sure about that. I think fans of many teams said they didn't want him. I can't imagine an NHL General Manager who wouldn't have wanted him.

Fortunately, we fans aren't GMs. Tampa did try that approach some years back with Brian Lawton and it didn't work at all so they hired Yzerman.

Consider that a little over a year ago Cheveldayoff had Laine on the trade market for months and couldn't find a taker, and then when Jarmo, a GM from Laine's hometown, had to make PLD available, Jarmo still said no to a 1 for 1 deal.

Laine followed that up with a sub-replacement season. He just wasn't in the right physical/mental space to be playing pro hockey. Torts played a role, but either way, Laine's value was through the floor. His play on the ice last year wasn't worth a thing so you would have needed GMs to pick up the $7.5m QO tab solely on the hope of future development. That already rules out a lot of win-now teams. I'm sure there were plenty of teams trying to exit their rebuilds - NJ, LA, etc.. that still would have wanted Laine, but my guess is that it was at a price less than half of what it is now.

To be clear, that is a guess. We haven't had any reporting on the caliber of the offers Jarmo was getting.

 

[BB88]

It was a different time. Getzlaff was absolutely a #1 C. Not only that, it was a loaded team with tremendous forward depth and one of the best blue lines in the modern era.

A 1C, a 94 point wing in Selanne, a great 1A/B in McDonald, a young franchise winger in Perry, a 69 point 2D?? who put up 84 points in Neidermeyer and Pronger who it seemed got lucky every year and his team ended up deep in the playoffs including Cup Finals in Edmonton, Anaheim (won) and Philly.

Yes like several other Cup champs, they had almost everything including A pair of #1 Cs.

I don’t remember exactly how good McDonald was at the time and Getzlaf was still developing.
I don’t think either of them were seen as franchise at that point.

But the point was if someone wanted to try to make an argument for team winning a Cup without s franchise C they’d be closest.

& They had 3 Hall of famers to compensate, Selanne, Pronger, Niedermayer.

 

[Vapaatunnus]

I don’t remember exactly how good McDonald was at the time and Getzlaf was still developing.
I don’t think either of them were seen as franchise at that point.

But the point was if someone wanted to try to make an argument for team winning a Cup without s franchise C they’d be closest.

& They had 3 Hall of famers to compensate, Selanne, Pronger, Niedermayer.

And Perry wasn't that bad either

 

[NotCommitted]

Consider that a little over a year ago Cheveldayoff had Laine on the trade market for months and couldn't find a taker, and then when Jarmo, a GM from Laine's hometown, had to make PLD available, Jarmo still said no to a 1 for 1 deal.

It's not that nobody wanted him, it's just nobody wanted him for what Chevy was asking. If Chevy had been willing to deal something around picks and prospects, I'm sure there would've been plenty of interest and for a decent price, but he was looking for a high quality D-man or a top-6 center AFAIK. That makes it tricky, because a team most likely interested in a high scoring winger would probably be a contender looking for a boost, but a contender wouldn't want to deal from center or D, at least not the quality of player the ask seemed to be.

Laine followed that up with a sub-replacement season. He just wasn't in the right physical/mental space to be playing pro hockey. Torts played a role, but either way, Laine's value was through the floor. His play on the ice last year wasn't worth a thing so you would have needed GMs to pick up the $7.5m QO tab solely on the hope of future development. That already rules out a lot of win-now teams. I'm sure there were plenty of teams trying to exit their rebuilds - NJ, LA, etc.. that still would have wanted Laine, but my guess is that it was at a price less than half of what it is now.

Maybe I'm nitpicking on a choice of words, but before last season Laine was averaging something like 35 goals / 82 and had a career high of 44 goals. So teams would've been trading for him on the hope of bounce back. As we're talking about a 23-year old, or 22 if we're talking TDL, in any case future development would've been a quite likely added bonus Agree though that his play last season wouldn't been so hot on, and his trade value would've been at an all time low.

Personally I was surprised Jets had to add in the trade to get PLD, I get it he plays center but IMO the upside with Laine is just quite a bit higher and in a vacuum I think he's the better hockey player. Maybe I am underrating PLD and how much the center position is valued and also had more faith in Laine putting it all together than most. He seems to be doing that now but it's still a bit early to tell how consistent he can be. I think that the add ended up being Roslovic was a lucky opportunity because of his contract situation with the Jets. It's funny he ended up being the best player of the trade last season, but it seems both Laine & PLD had some injury concerns on top of it being a difficult time to get acquinted with a new team. Too bad Roslovic hasn't continued his good play. Seems to me he really needs to play center to play to his strengths with the puck, but at the same time he really doesn't seem capable of handling the responsibilities that come with it.

 

[Tommigun]

Personally I was surprised Jets had to add in the trade to get PLD, I get it he plays center but IMO the upside with Laine is just quite a bit higher and in a vacuum I think he's the better hockey player.

The contracts factored in.

 

[Halberdier]

Personally I was surprised Jets had to add in the trade to get PLD, I get it he plays center but IMO the upside with Laine is just quite a bit higher and in a vacuum I think he's the better hockey player.

Don't forget that Roslovic refused to play for the Jets anymore, so he was almost worthless for Chevy anyway.

PLD was probably highly valued because of that great playoff run just a half year before.

And just like @Tommigun wrote, contract was also valued, and Laine had much higher cap hit, actually whopping 50% more, and 1 year shorter contract.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Struggling to come up with good comps for Laine's situation in regards to his next contract. I would think something in the ballpark of 6-7 years, at around ~9% of the current cap. That would be something like 6 x $7-7.5m. He is arbitration eligible and just one year from UFA status, so that changed things a bit. Players like Tarasenko (10.5%) and Svechnikov (9.51%) commanded more than 9% of the total cap at the time they signed, but they also agreed to 8 year deals. I'm sure last year is weighing a bit on the FO offering Laine an 8x9.

I'm sure other sites have better contract predictions, but I'd guess...
5x$8m
6x$8.25m
7x$8.5m
8x$9m

Or thereabouts. It's sort of weird because his QO is so high, but as has been noted, he has a lot of leverage in terms of being one year away from UFA status and he's still only 23. So a 5-6 year deal would allow him to sign another big, lengthy contract before he's 30. Because he doesn't have all the facets in his all around game, it's sort of hard to see him in the $10m+ range like Matthews, Panarin, Eichel, Stone, etc.

 

[CBJx614]

Johnson could be that guy( or Sillinger) or a guy they drafy this year.
If so that’s great, toughest position to address would have been addressed.

It doesn’t matter how it happens just that it has to happen




Seems like has to be top 10, at the absolute worst top15 in his position.

It’s just a killer for match ups if Jenner is the best they got and he lines up against guys like Barkov or Matthews.

That’s not saying Jenner is garbage but asking him to win those match ups regularly is a lot to ask and history suggest winning recipe is a top tier C.

Crosby- Malkin
Zetterberg- Datsuyk
Kopitar
Bergeron- Krejci
Toews
Point
Backstrom- Kuznetsov
RoR

& if you look at this years favourites they all have that figured out:
Mackinnon
Barkov
Point
Aho
Eichel

Let's also not forget Jenner is having his best season since what? His rookie season? There's absolutely no guarantee we see the same performance outta Jenner next year.


Imo we absolutely need someone more skilled in the top 6 C role.

 

[Marioesque]

Let's also not forget Jenner is having his best season since what? His rookie season? There's absolutely no guarantee we see the same performance outta Jenner next year.


Imo we absolutely need someone more skilled in the top 6 C role.

For sure, to become a contender you need center depth where Boone is ideally 2nd or 3rd line center. He's in his prime right now so he can be pretty effective especially with Laine, who made Wheeler a 90pt player twice.

I'm still curious to see how it would work without Jake, with Max. Haven't seen much of Laine-Jenner-Domi.

 

[VT]

Come to think of it, has anyone given any thought to the fact that it was Torts who started working on changing Laine's style of play to make him an all-around player and not just a sniper?

 

[BB88]

Let's also not forget Jenner is having his best season since what? His rookie season? There's absolutely no guarantee we see the same performance outta Jenner next year.


Imo we absolutely need someone more skilled in the top 6 C role.

& He turns 29y this summer.
Not optimal as longterm answer.

I really hope Johnson/2022 pick for example turn out to be that 1C.

 

[Keduzin]

Come to think of it, has anyone given any thought to the fact that it was Torts who started working on changing Laine's style of play to make him an all-around player and not just a sniper?

It was definitly not Torts, it was Maurice. And he did not do a very good job at it either , but some of that was also Laine’s fault tbh.

 

[NotCommitted]

Come to think of it, has anyone given any thought to the fact that it was Torts who started working on changing Laine's style of play to make him an all-around player and not just a sniper?

Not really that accurate, though I'll give it to Torts he seemed to be able to teach Laine more about defense in a shortened season than Maurice ever did in Winnipeg. I think training with Barkov during summers is also helping him with details, like his backchecking seems really improved and Barkov is a master of it. But 19-20 season for example in WPG, Laine was playing nothing like a sniper and Maurice was a big fan of the idea that Laine should turn into a big bodied power forward, which also seemed to be what Torts wanted. Actually the whole project of changing Laine's game started as far back as 18-19.

Laine is playing very good all around this season, but is he playing like a power forward? Actually as a Blue Jacket he's been hitting way less than he did in Winnipeg. He was usually one of the more active hitters of forwards and of top-6 guys, only Wheeler hit as much as he used to. Maybe the injuries have made him more careful. For example last season he only had 22 hits, while in the Jets he usually had between 70-100. Of course last season he played only 40-something games, but still that's a big difference.

 

[VT]

Not really that accurate, though I'll give it to Torts he seemed to be able to teach Laine more about defense in a shortened season than Maurice ever did in Winnipeg. I think training with Barkov during summers is also helping him with details, like his backchecking seems really improved and Barkov is a master of it. But 19-20 season for example in WPG, Laine was playing nothing like a sniper and Maurice was a big fan of the idea that Laine should turn into a big bodied power forward, which also seemed to be what Torts wanted. Actually the whole project of changing Laine's game started as far back as 18-19.

Laine is playing very good all around this season, but is he playing like a power forward? Actually as a Blue Jacket he's been hitting way less than he did in Winnipeg. He was usually one of the more active hitters of forwards and of top-6 guys, only Wheeler hit as much as he used to. Maybe the injuries have made him more careful. For example last season he only had 22 hits, while in the Jets he usually had between 70-100. Of course last season he played only 40-something games, but still that's a big difference.

Hitting isn't such important because the puck is possible to get other ways. Be a power forward doesn't mean a player must often hit but he uses his body more around the boards, in the front of the net. Besides Torts is a guru of defense. Laine was more sniper in Jets.

It was definitly not Torts, it was Maurice. And he did not do a very good job at it either , but some of that was also Laine’s fault tbh.

He started but Maurice isn't extra in it.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[Halberdier]

Come to think of it, has anyone given any thought to the fact that it was Torts who started working on changing Laine's style of play to make him an all-around player and not just a sniper?

I think that is maybe some bedtime stories in Columbus but no. His all-round play has been worked on last 10 years I guess and at least since 15-16 season in FEL. FEL is the most defensive oriented league in the world and you cannot just stand still waiting for snipes.

Mostly what we have seen this season is that Laine is back to his play as a Jet, but even better. As he should be being again 1 year more mature.

I think that instead of "all-round" the key is "consistency", or lack thereof. Finnish coach Jukka Jalonen (Olympic gold, 2*WC gold, 1*WJC gold with Laine) said back in 2016 about Laine that he has like 2 modes: either he is on his goal scoring mode (sniper, if you will) or he is on that skating & backchecking and "better overall game mode", but not the same time. And Jalonen says that if Laine can combine those two, that's just great, "watch out". And right now that is kind of happening -- again, but probably better than ever.

That interview of Jalonen was almost 6 years ago so take those with a pinch of salt, but that was roughly the idea as far as I can remember.

EDIT: didn't see the post above. Laine seems to agree with the consistency thing.

 

[majormajor]

It's not that nobody wanted him, it's just nobody wanted him for what Chevy was asking. If Chevy had been willing to deal something around picks and prospects, I'm sure there would've been plenty of interest and for a decent price, but he was looking for a high quality D-man or a top-6 center AFAIK. That makes it tricky, because a team most likely interested in a high scoring winger would probably be a contender looking for a boost, but a contender wouldn't want to deal from center or D, at least not the quality of player the ask seemed to be.

That's all true. I also think there would have been a lot of win-now clubs that didn't want to commit $7.5m cap to Laine when they weren't sure which Laine they'd be getting.

Maybe I'm nitpicking on a choice of words, but before last season Laine was averaging something like 35 goals / 82 and had a career high of 44 goals. So teams would've been trading for him on the hope of bounce back. As we're talking about a 23-year old, or 22 if we're talking TDL, in any case future development would've been a quite likely added bonus Agree though that his play last season wouldn't been so hot on, and his trade value would've been at an all time low.

Yes it would be hope for a bounce back, but what kind of bounce back? I think there was skepticism (maybe I was just projecting my own skepticism) that he was going to start shooting at 18% again, like he did when he was a teenager. If he was going to "bounce back" and start scoring 40 goals again, he had to develop his overall game, improve on possession time, and shoot a lot more.

Side note - it's interesting to track Laine's shots lately. His overall game in the nine-game point streak has been strong but he's still not shooting the puck that much. Only 29 shots in those 9 games. Obviously if 10 out of 29 go in, there are no complaints.