Part 5: True North Sports & Entertainment's efforts to acquire an NHL team (Winnip

[Gryph]

I think you'll find most owners in sports are incredibly wealthy men. And yet they still lockout the players because they cant survive without getting more money from their employees and hold local governments hostage for subsidies and tax breaks.

Its important that he's wealthy in that he can afford to play the game. But its not important in that he will underwrite losses for the team long term. Far more likely, the team if it loses money, will go into debt, perhaps to Thomson, and then after several years claim a new cba is needed because they are too far in debt. Or that they should be able to sell their franchise for a nice $100mil capital gain since they can no longer make money in Winnipeg without taxpayer subsidized bonds.

There are richer men than Thomson currently owning sports teams who are crying poor.

From my conversations with Thomson, I believe his desire to buy the team comes from being a fan of the NHL, and the desire to win a Stanley Cup. Most NHL teams are owned by large corporations with the bottom line as the first priority. David increased his net worth by 4billion dollars last year through his corportation ThomsonReuters, so I believe Thomson would be willing to swallow some losses in order to ice a winning team for the City of Winnipeg.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Which of the 16 people in the world richer than David Thomson are you talking about?

Yet again, the THomson FAMILY'S wealth (shared with 2 other siblings) is an entirely different thing from Mr. Thomson's still-gigantic wealth.

Individually, he is approximately on par with the wealth of Philip Anschutz.

 

[GSC2k2*]

I'll give you that so I guess my point is TNSE has the ability to purchase a team with cash.

Really? Do you think Mark Chipman has $85 million in cash to come up with his half? I have no doubt about Thomson's ability to produce as much liquidity as he wishes, but Chipman?

I would imagine there are benefits to finance part of the purchase, however TNSE doesn't have their hands out. This will be entirely on them, not me and my neighbors.

Since you (assuming yourself to be a Manitoba taxpayer) have already put in your $40 million, I would think not (although, if the SHED turns out to be a zone with special tax exemptions, you will be paying again for that).

 

[AllByDesign]

I'll give you that so I guess my point is TNSE has the ability to purchase a team with cash. I would imagine there are benefits to finance part of the purchase, however TNSE doesn't have their hands out. This will be entirely on them, not me and my neighbors.

A lot of people have short memories in regards to the arena. Partial funding was provided by all three levels of government. Chipman's initial plan was to have his new arena out at west Portage. It would provide plenty of exposure and traffic for his family's new auto mall. The government had a priority for downtown renewal and would only pony up if that was the location. The old Eaton's building land is cramped and added to the problem with capacity.

Add to that, the fact that TNSE was also granted an entertainment monopoly as part of the deal. Any concert in city limits became TNSE property even if it was held at Canwest park or Canada inns stadium.

Your public dollars are a big part of TNSE. Your public dollars are also a part of an absurd monopoly as well. Chipman is very shrewd. His old man had many tricks up his sleeve that he passed on to the boys.

 

[peter sullivan]

Yet again, the THomson FAMILY'S wealth (shared with 2 other siblings) is an entirely different thing from Mr. Thomson's still-gigantic wealth.

Individually, he is approximately on par with the wealth of Philip Anschutz.

you have no proof of this.

 

[Grumpz]

Really? Do you think Mark Chipman has $85 million in cash to come up with his half? I have no doubt about Thomson's ability to produce as much liquidity as he wishes, but Chipman?



Since you (assuming yourself to be a Manitoba taxpayer) have already put in your $40 million, I would think not (although, if the SHED turns out to be a zone with special tax exemptions, you will be paying again for that).

Aren't we talking about purchasing a team? Unless things have changed, I wasn't aware that Winnipegers were chipping in to top up the purchase price....ala $100 milion in bonds.

 

[Grumpz]

A lot of people have short memories in regards to the arena. Partial funding was provided by all three levels of government. Chipman's initial plan was to have his new arena out at west Portage. It would provide plenty of exposure and traffic for his family's new auto mall. The government had a priority for downtown renewal and would only pony up if that was the location. The old Eaton's building land is cramped and added to the problem with capacity.

Add to that, the fact that TNSE was also granted an entertainment monopoly as part of the deal. Any concert in city limits became TNSE property even if it was held at Canwest park or Canada inns stadium.

Your public dollars are a big part of TNSE. Your public dollars are also a part of an absurd monopoly as well. Chipman is very shrewd. His old man had many tricks up his sleeve that he passed on to the boys.

As I've already noted, we are talking about purchasing an NHL team here.

That being said, I have no problem with supporting the building of a facility that has brought pride to this city, and put helped to put Winnipeg back on the map.

 

[King Woodballs]

Been gone for three days and nothing has changed

 

[Brominator]

Frankly I don't care how inflated CBC's numbers are, nor do I care what TNSE is using in their assessment of how viable this market is.

The last time I checked, they were paying COLD HARD CASH for this team.

No financing.

No subsidies.

100% out of pocket cash!

Exactly. Although we don't know if TNSE will use financing to purchase the team (they could pay cash if they wanted to), there's been no indication that they require any government subsidies in their quest to bring an NHL team to Winnipeg. They didn't announce to the people of Winnipeg, "hey we want to bring a big-league team to the city, and we'll do it if the government agrees to ______ ." They are willing to pay for an NHL team in Winnipeg and finance it. It is crystal clear that there is no one willing to do the same for an NHL team in Glendale.

Sure, Oakes' analysis was optimistic. But without a doubt, TNSE has done their homework. Perhaps TNSE is even predicting that their NHL team will lose money. It's irrelevant, as they obviously view an NHL team in Winnipeg as a good investment, either because they believe the team will be profitable, or because the existence of the team will make their other ventures more profitable. Unless someone who spends a good portion of their time frequenting hockey message boards (myself included) is willing to question the business competency of Mark Chipman and David Thomson, who collectively have a decade and a half experience running a successful sports franchise and literally billions in net worth.... Go ahead.

Besides, we really don't need to debate how much cash TNSE will bring in with an NHL team based on projections and assumptions. We'll have empirical evidence soon enough.

 

[Gabriel Landeskog]

Which of the 16 people in the world richer than David Thomson are you talking about?

Thompson would be the richest owner in the NHL.

 

[Grumpz]

Thompson would be the richest owner in the NHL.

NHL...try Pro-sports.

 

[Gabriel Landeskog]

NHL...try Pro-sports.

Thats even more impressive then, I didn't look into the 16 richer to see if they own any sports teams.

 

[AllByDesign]

As I've already noted, we are talking about purchasing an NHL team here.

That being said, I have no problem with supporting the building of a facility that has brought pride to this city, and put helped to put Winnipeg back on the map.

Since there aren't any teams for sale, it would be premature to assume that zero public dollars would be used in procuring a team that did become available.

 

[berklon]

I can't believe some are trying to down-play the worth of Thomson. As if his financial position isn't strong enough to justify a purchase of a team for Winnipeg.

Truly ridiculous.

 

[Grumpz]

Since there aren't any teams for sale, it would be premature to assume that zero public dollars would be used in procuring a team that did become available.

No teams for sale, perhaps. A "Bona fide" offer to purchase a failed franchise does in fact exist.

 

[BrianSTC]

Really? Do you think Mark Chipman has $85 million in cash to come up with his half? I have no doubt about Thomson's ability to produce as much liquidity as he wishes, but Chipman?

What makes you assume that Chipman is putting up an equal share?

 

[htpwn]

Yet again, the THomson FAMILY'S wealth (shared with 2 other siblings) is an entirely different thing from Mr. Thomson's still-gigantic wealth.

Individually, he is approximately on par with the wealth of Philip Anschutz.

Source? You have repeatedly stated this 'fact' and I don't recall ever seeing a link or an article or something to back it up. It seems it is based on your assumption.

I do agree with the fact that the $24 billion is probably split between the three of the sibling, but how does one assume how it is split?

 

[Gryph]

If Thomson was to buy an NHL team, he would be the new Mark Cuban of Hockey, just with a less hands on approach. The guy doesn't care about the money, he is a hockey fan and wants to bring a winning hockey team back to his fathers hometown.

 

[Gryph]

Source? You have repeatedly stated this 'fact' and I don't recall ever seeing a link or an article or something to back it up. It seems it is based on your assumption.

I do agree with the fact that the $24 billion is probably split between the three of the sibling, but how does one assume how it is split?

Not true, when his father Ken passed away...David was left as the sole heir.

 

[kdb209]

Why?

Ticket prices in Edmonton are as follows:

Gold Club:$236.75
Silver Club: $212.25
Executive: $150.75
Executive Terrace: $138.75
Terrace: $112.25
Colonnade: $82.75
Gallery: $55.25
Standing Room: $50.75

Maybe you can get tickets cheaper but this is direct from the Ticketmaster prices list.

Single game tickets on Ticketbastard is not a good measure to judge avg ticket prices - a majority of tickets are sold as STH packages.

I can't speak directly to what the current STH prices are - the Oilers do not currently list them since they have a STH waitlist.

But, a quick google shows the prices from two seasons ago.

These correspond to avg per game ticket prices of:
Gold Club:$165.50
Silver Club: $144.00
Executive: $103.00
Executive Terrace: $96.50
Terrace: $70.50
Colonnade: $46.50
Gallery: $30.50
Standing Room: $30.50

It's not clear if those packages include pre-season games - if so the real per game ticket prices may be 4-7% less.

Does anyone have either a current STH price list - or a single game price list from '08-'09 to judge the typical STH discounts.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Single game tickets on Ticketbastard is not a good measure to judge avg ticket prices - a majority of tickets are sold as STH packages.

I can't speak directly to what the current STH prices are - the Oilers do not currently list them since they have a STH waitlist.

But, a quick google shows the prices from two seasons ago.

These correspond to avg per game ticket prices of:
Gold Club:$165.50
Silver Club: $144.00
Executive: $103.00
Executive Terrace: $96.50
Terrace: $70.50
Colonnade: $46.50
Gallery: $30.50
Standing Room: $30.50

It's not clear if those packages include pre-season games - if so the real per game ticket prices may be 4-7% less.

Does anyone have either a current STH price list - or a single game price list from '08-'09 to judge the typical STH discounts.

The bottom line is that the Oilers are among the top teams in the league in gate receipts in their smallish sub-17k arena with their smallish population base. They also have some of the best TV numbers in the NHL on their RSN.

Last public data we have from 2007-08 shows Oilers made $250,000 more per game than the San Jose Sharks (all in USD). They also had larger gate receipts per games than teams such as the Detroit Red Wings and Philadelphia Flyers.

http://www.rodneyfort.com/PHSportsE...omeExpense/NHLTicketRevTorStar.com5-30-08.pdf

GHOST

 

[BrianSTC]

Single game tickets on Ticketbastard is not a good measure to judge avg ticket prices - a majority of tickets are sold as STH packages.

I can't speak directly to what the current STH prices are - the Oilers do not currently list them since they have a STH waitlist.

But, a quick google shows the prices from two seasons ago.

These correspond to avg per game ticket prices of:
Gold Club:$165.50
Silver Club: $144.00
Executive: $103.00
Executive Terrace: $96.50
Terrace: $70.50
Colonnade: $46.50
Gallery: $30.50
Standing Room: $30.50

It's not clear if those packages include pre-season games - if so the real per game ticket prices may be 4-7% less.

Does anyone have either a current STH price list - or a single game price list from '08-'09 to judge the typical STH discounts.

Even with those adjusted prices, a 75 average ticket price still seems about right.

 

[Dado]

Even with those adjusted prices, a 75 average ticket price still seems about right.

My impression of Edmonton is that folks there are swimming in surplus $100-a-barrel-of-oil cash.

Is there something similar in Winnipeg? Y'all feeling flush?

(Honest question, not trolling)

 

[Crazy_Ike]

Well, the owner of the Jets disagrees with you. And I don't know what point you're trying to make talking about the attendance of the last year.

The claim was made that someone wasn't being accurate at describing empty seats during Jets games. The fact is, the Jets had huge issues drawing throughout their history, not just their last season (though that was their worst).

If someone is going to call someone else out for being inaccurate, they should be aware of their own stats first.

That said I am quite certain the Jets will average over 15k in their first season back. Whether they keep that up - we'll see.

 

[crazed323]

You do realize that the Jets never managed to average over 13,700 people (regular season) in their history, right? And the attendance in their last season was lower than Phoenix's was last year. Their average attendance is roughly comparable to the New York Islanders of today, and lower than every single other team, including Phoenix.

I personally think the Jets could do just fine as long as the Canadian dollar holds up, but don't try to claim there was never a problem. There were plenty of nights when the Jets were barely clinging to that 10k mark of people in the seats, and in their last season they routinely went below it. That's a lot of empty seats.

There were alot of lousy sightlines in the old barn. I remember going to a game and wathcing it on the monitors that hung from the roof. Alot of the tickets were not worth buying.

I don't think anyone can deny that the attendance couldn't have been better. New building, New team, 15 years laters I think the NHL in Winnipeg will do just fine. Regardless of the canadian dollar.

The main reason for leaving was never the attendance, so why do people bring this up?