Part 5: True North Sports & Entertainment's efforts to acquire an NHL team (Winnip

[wpgJetsfan]

Great post.

A local reporter is now saying that TNSE already has designed a jersey and a team name has been chosen.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/life/columnists/dave_wheeler/2011/03/12/17596211.html

Manitoba Polar Bears perhaps?

Or Manitoba Blizzard? lol

 

[bicycles]

Manitoba Maroons would be great.

 

[objectiveposter]

the names that are most mentioned as possible names on jetsowner are
Manitoba Bears
Manitoba Falcons
Manitoba Ice
Manitoba Rebels

 

[Jeffrey93]

All right, J93 - let's talk about Winnipeg in this thread since its the Winnipeg thread.

Now, I'm all about discussion so let's discuss: First off your claim regarding "delusions".

No need to PM a mod to discuss what is already a viable topic for this thread, and how it relates to TNSEs efforts to secure & Support an NHL franchise.

Go for it, lay it all out. What are these "delusions" exactly?

edit: I wanted to add Im not trying to single you out or anything - this isnt anything antagonistic; I do respect your posts as well.

Haven't had the chance yet to put something together. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you though. And you're right...no need to PM a mod...this is a new thread so, for now at least, I can post in here. I imagine once I get into this discussion with you that may change as the replies start to come in from other posters.

 

[Fidel Astro]

Great post.

A local reporter is now saying that TNSE already has designed a jersey and a team name has been chosen.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/life/columnists/dave_wheeler/2011/03/12/17596211.html

Manitoba Polar Bears perhaps?

I don't think that guy qualifies as a "local reporter." He's some morning radio ********* who has a column in the Sun because he's a recognizable local "personality."

He might be right in this case (I guess we'll find out soon enough), but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "reporter".

 

[dkehler]

Maybe it's just me...but anything short of the Jets...seems...lame. Furthermore, having the provincial name out in front instead of Winnipeg, is even more lame.

It's not just you, believe me. In fact, I have a petition with almost 500 signatures that agrees with us.

 

[Klaus]

Maybe it's just me...but anything short of the Jets...seems...lame. Furthermore, having the provincial name out in front instead of Winnipeg, is even more lame.

Agreed...

 

[Krautso]

Maybe it's just me...but anything short of the Jets...seems...lame. Furthermore, having the provincial name out in front instead of Winnipeg, is even more lame.

I'd like the Jets back as much as anyone but I'm curious as why you're against having the name of the province used. Its a common practice, especially for teams hoping to draw from a wider geographical base than just the city itself.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I don't think that guy qualifies as a "local reporter." He's some morning radio ********* who has a column in the Sun because he's a recognizable local "personality."

He might be right in this case (I guess we'll find out soon enough), but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "reporter".

Yeah, I saw the comments below the article and figured I would post the link anyway. Speaking personally, I've heard the same thing recently locally and not via a ROTJ connection either. I chose the term reporter because his story was published in the local rag.

 

[masterquan14]

It's not just you, believe me. In fact, I have a petition with almost 500 signatures that agrees with us.

i'd sign

 

[cbcwpg]

Maybe it's just me...but anything short of the Jets...seems...lame. Furthermore, having the provincial name out in front instead of Winnipeg, is even more lame.

For this to work the whole province has to get behind it, not just Winnipeg. That's one of the reasons its currently the Manitoba Moose and not Winnipeg Moose.

As far as the "Jets" name, one myth is the team was named the Jets because they had signed Bobby Hull who was known as the Golden Jet. Not true. The Winnipeg Jets were actually named after the New York Jets. Ben Hatskin was starting up a junior team, and as it was at the time, he was a long time friend of David A. Werblin ( owner of the NY Jets ). Hatskin admired Werblin and for that reason asked Werblin if it was OK to name the team the Winnipeg Junior Jets. When Hatskin got a WHA team, he changed it to just the Jets. ( Page 21 of Professional Hockey in Winnipeg book )

I say start fresh, and if that's the case name it after something associated with Manitoba, not some far off football team. But if you were the guy putting down $170M to bring a team back, its your right to call it whatever you want. And its not like people won't go to the games if its not called the Jets.

 

[masterquan14]

Suffice it to say, that no matter how hard you try to provide backup to your claims on certain issues, it will never be enough for some people, who have clear bias towards Winnipeg failing *ahem, I'm looking at you, GSC2k2*. Yes, I read the posts about you earlier today, and have to agree with what was said about you being bias earlier. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt upon your return, however I was clearly mistaken in doing that. It's the same old same old from you. The only way to prove this is when the team returns. I will enjoy watching all the Winnipeg doubters choke on their words when they realize we are indeed a viable market.

Yes, I will enjoy that very much.

as a small business owner outside of wpg,ill be getting season tix,we will be viable,and they will choke on those words

 

[crazed323]

Manitoba Stealth = Winnipeg Jets reborn.

ALthough I have signed Kehlers petition, it is futile. I would believe they do have a name, logo and colours picked out. Not too would be kinda senseless since this has been a possibility.

They have made the decision to use Manitoba in the name long ago when they named the Manitoba Moose. It's worked great for them so far, why change it?


Speculation on the colours, how about something that wouldn't clash with the seat colours at MTS Centre. Maybe it would be silly to suggest seat colours would have an influence. Thoughts?

 

[Le Golie]

My guesses for the name are Manitoba Falcons or Manitoba Moose. I think those are the legitimate contenders.

 

[Ozzie Bear]

I don't think that guy qualifies as a "local reporter." He's some morning radio ********* who has a column in the Sun because he's a recognizable local "personality."

He might be right in this case (I guess we'll find out soon enough), but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "reporter".

He's not a reprter by definition, more of a radio guy but he does write an occasional opinion column for the Sun. Also does the in game promotions at Moose games so is employed by TNSE.

 

[Moobles]

I hope they pick something reasonable and don't go with a "Minnesota Wild" approach to naming (though the Wild logo is sick).

 

[peter sullivan]

can we keep the incessant name debate over at the jetsowner site?.....pretty much every thread ends up with that discussion on that repository of critical thinking, so you wont have to go far to find a place for it.

...or at least wait until we actually have a team.

 

[Brodie]

why would the province of Manitoba not support a team named Winnipeg? There are only 5 such teams in the NHL, each with varying reasons... civic rivalries in Minnesota, playing in a small city in the middle of two different metro areas in Florida, not playing in a city with any name recognition in New Jersey and Carolina and as an attempt to be hip in Colorado (where the team was originally to be called the Rocky Mountain Xtreme). Additional examples in other sports are similar: the Golden State warriors had moved from San Francisco to comparatively unknown Oakland and wanted to maintain their fanbase in the city (while also launching a misguided attempt to become a home team for San Diego), the Indiana Pacers were trying to play off of Indiana's reputation as a college basketball hotbed and the New Jersey/Minnesota scenarios are the same. In football, the Tennessee Titans played in Memphis and Nashville, the Patriots moved so far from Boston that they're nearly in Rhode Island requiring a name change, ditto the NHL on Carolina and Minnesota while fans in Arizona felt the name "Phoenix Cardinals" wasn't inclusive enough and demanded a change. In baseball, the Texas Rangers are called Texas both because they play in the suburbs and because the name wouldn't be nearly as cool otherwise, the Diamondbacks got their name because their owners feared a repeat of what happened with the Cardinals, the Rockies situation is similar to the Rangers, the Flordia Marlins are changing their name to the Miami Marlins and Minnesota is the same as in the NHL.

So what's Manitoba's reasoning?

 

[Lux Aurumque*]

Jets works for Winnipeg for so many reasons.

One of them being the large amount of Canadian aerospace companies based out of the Winnipeg area.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Or Thomson can buy the Leafs and leave TNSE without deep pockets .

Actually, Thomson recently sold an interest in the Leafs.

GHOST

 

[MAROONSRoad]

can we keep the incessant name debate over at the jetsowner site?.....pretty much every thread ends up with that discussion on that repository of critical thinking, so you wont have to go far to find a place for it.

...or at least wait until we actually have a team.

Actually, I think it's a sign of the progress that's been made on this subject here. When I first started posting here, I'd say the majority of regular BOH posters at the time thought you were hopelessly naive (to use a polite term) to suggest an NHL team might return to Winnipeg -- some still feel that way, of course. On the other hand, most of those people knew hardly anything about Winnipeg or TNSE, etc.

GHOST

 

[peter sullivan]

I
I have had some financial projections in my back pocket for WPG for quite some time but have held off for fear that it would drive some people over the edge, to be perfectly frank.

that's an awesome comment.....why would anyone go over the edge upon reviewing your stab in the dark on the financial potential of an NHL team in winnipeg....i am quite certain that you have no inside information regarding the revenue streams available to TNSE.....

i will not disagree that the $102m number seems high and the analysis not terribly valid....the broadcast revenues in particular...odd since it came from the CBC, the single largest TV contract the NHL has...you would think that would be the one number you could be confident in....maybe they know something we dont?

there were however other numbers in that 'study' that were not included.

luckily these off the cuff reviews are meaningless...the only thing that matters is that the guy willing to put his money on the table believes his market studies prove a viable business case.....and that the NHL agrees with him....it appears that we will find out soon enough if all the talk from the NHL and TNSE was just blowing smoke or if it is real.

Matthew Hulsizer has done some modeling as well.

he obviously has....which explains why he wont touch the coyotes without $200m in handouts over 5 years.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I saw those on HNIC tonight, as did many of us. Suffice to say that my jaw dropped. It dropped because clearly no one checked the handiwork of Mr. Oake or his apparently financially challenged staff.

I have had some financial projections in my back pocket for WPG for quite some time but have held off for fear that it would drive some people over the edge, to be perfectly frank.

In short, with the possible exception of the suite revenue (which is still inaccurate, but only in a relatively minor way), the rest of the numbers are ridiculous. THe in-arena sales numbers are the worst in terms of inaccuracy, followed by the broadcast revenue. I will write off the revenue sharing to a simple inability to understand the NHL revenue sharing mechanism. $45M in ticket sales? That seems to contain a number of holes, albeit through making assumptions as to how one could go about that with what Oake stated was 14,500 in average paid attendance.
$80M would be the most optimistic assumption possible, if EVERYTHING went right. $102M is simply either delusional or produced by someone who has no understanding of sports finances. IMO, of course. Playoff games excluded of course.

BY the way: those "100 events" on top of hockey that Oake mentioned? Try about 69, between April 2010 and March of 2011. A fine performance, no doubt, but why exaggerate it by 50%, particularly when it can be counted in about 90 seconds like I just did? If it was 90 or so, I would write that off to a mild exaggeration. Rounding up 69 to 100? Nope.

Shout out to Killion: what do you think about producing $15M in fees from 69 events?
EDIT: I am of course not referring to gross revenue on the non-hockey events, K.

So why would the $45 million in ticket sales not be attainable? I understand Scott is off on his 14,500 persons estimate, but why would the revenue be full of holes?

If you minus approx. 1000 seats for the 50 suites plus another 500 free tickets per game that leaves you with 13,500. So......

13,500 * 44 games (including exhibition) * $75 average ticket price = $44 550 000

Seems to add up to $45 million if you round the number up. Are you referring to Winnipeg's ability to sell tickets at that price?

I remember you wrote in detail regarding the concessions and how these are contracted out (in most cases). Because of that, the profits realized by the owner(s) of the building are minimal. In this case, let's say $2 million.

For in-arena numbers maybe Oake was also referring to parking as well. The thing is I don't know, and I don't know if anyone else on this board knows, how many spots TNSE owns. I also don't know how much profit (not revenue) one can realize from those spots for sports and non-sporting events. $1 million maybe........$2 million at most?

Lastly, with regards to those in-arena numbers, Oake might have been referring to advertising. I'm sure the arena naming rights could garner in excess of $1 million per season. I would think it's reasonable that the team could generate in the neighbourhood of $4 million in total advertising when rinkboards, the scoreboard, electronic ribbon and concession area included.

So that's $2 million + $2 million + $4 million = $ 8 million in - arena revenues

Am I missing anything there?

I really don't know what the team would receive for merchandising. ie. How much do they see from the sale of a $200 hockey jersey?....a $35 dollar cap?

In regards to the broadcast revenue, CBC signed a new 5 - year deal with the league for 5 years at $500 million.....so $3 million per team. I have no idea what TSN pays.......I'll just assume it's the same. With the Jet s back in town I'm sure a local TV deal in the neighbourhood of $3 - $5 million per year would be in order. Hell, the Coyotes apparently get $5 million per year from their local TV deal and they get less than 10,000 viewers. Don't think anyone knows what NBC brings to the table since the deal is contingent on ad revenue.

So that's $3 million + $3 million + $3 - $5 million (local tv) + $1 million (NBC) = $10 - $12 million in tv revenue

That's not to far off Oake's estimates.

$10 million for the corporate boxes seems reasonable. Take the two 36-seat party suites and divide them to bring your suite total to 50. Charge $225 000 for the best suites between the blue lines......$200 000 from the blue line to the corners.....and $175 000 behind the nets. 50 suites * $200 000/suite average = $10 million.

$45 million ticket revenues + $10 million suites + $8 million in-arena revenues + $12 million tv revenue = $75 million + merchandise

Seems like the total revenue would be slightly more than your best-case scenario.....

BY the way, does anyone know what the average NHL team generates each year from merchandise? I'm all ears....

AS for your last bolded point, why do you think $15 million from 69 events is unattainable? There are so many factors that can determine this.........from the appearance fee of the artist at the venue, the price of tickets, tickets sold and I'm sure, several other things I can't think of. The revenue you realize from an soldout Elton John or a Metallica concert once expenses are accounted for, can differ greatly from that generated by a Sesame Street show which draws 3 - 5000. If you book the right events, that is, those events which you can charge a higher price point and which are also well attended, could you not profit in the neighbourhood of $15 million?

 

[Gabriel Landeskog]

Thompson also had plans of building a hotel and parkaid right beside the arena so that would be extra revenue.

Also to note from my understanding Thompson owns almost all of the land in downtown Winnipeg. So if he spent money on the team to create a competitor it would only benefit him greatly with the boosts downtown Winnipeg would get.

 

[itchyscratchy]

From John Loewen in the CBC clip...

GB indicated that (1995 $) - no one person with a net worth of 600M - wanted to buy the team...

No-one has verified the net worth of M Hulsizer to my knowledge, most estimates I have seen on the forum is 300M in 2011 dollars

Funny how things change