Part 2- 2015 Draft - or ALL prior draft discussion here

[RussellmaniaKW]

Missing the point.

how is it missing the point? I'm with Mike in that the argument that he wasn't prepared makes no sense to me. We're not talking about a guy coming from outside the org. He had been AGM for years and he acquired the picks. There were HF regulars with a better sense of who the top 20-30 prospects were in 2015, there's no excuse for Sweeney not having the lay of the land at the 2015 draft when he had been immersed in the the organization near the very top for years. And let's be real it's not like Sweeney would have been surprised to be named GM, he probably had plenty of time to start thinking about what the org needed before he got the job.

I get that maybe the scouting staff led him astray with those picks, but I would expect the guy who just got appointed to be NHL GM to have enough knowledge of the upcoming draft class to at the very least recognize that the Senyshyn pick was a big reach and push back on that. And I would think the fact that these scouts were the previous GM's guys would make Sweeney be a little more hands-on with the final selections, not less hands-on.

I just don't buy that Sweeney is absolved of responsibility for that draft just because he was new to the job. Sure you can chalk up the mistakes to inexperience or whatever, but the bottom line is he was the guy and they were still ultimately his mistakes.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Missing the point.

No, you're just a blind apologist.

For starters, he had been in multiple front office positions for years, this wasn't his first rodeo.

Second, even if he is a deer in the headlights, just go up and read the name of the BPA each time...just doing that and putting zero thought into it gets him Barzal, Connor and Meier...

 

[22Brad Park]

how is it missing the point? I'm with Mike in that the argument that he wasn't prepared makes no sense to me. We're not talking about a guy coming from outside the org. He had been AGM for years and he acquired the picks. There were HF regulars with a better sense of who the top 20-30 prospects were in 2015, there's no excuse for Sweeney not having the lay of the land at the 2015 draft when he had been immersed in the the organization near the very top for years. And let's be real it's not like Sweeney would have been surprised to be named GM, he probably had plenty of time to start thinking about what the org needed before he got the job.

I get that maybe the scouting staff led him astray with those picks, but I would expect the guy who just got appointed to be NHL GM to have enough knowledge of the upcoming draft class to at the very least recognize that the Senyshyn pick was a big reach and push back on that. And I would think the fact that these scouts were the previous GM's guys would make Sweeney be a little more hands-on with the final selections, not less hands-on.

I just don't buy that Sweeney is absolved of responsibility for that draft just because he was new to the job. Sure you can chalk up the mistakes to inexperience or whatever, but the bottom line is he was the guy and they were still ultimately his mistakes.

There is no doubt Sweeney made them mistakes at 2015 draft and the Senyshyn pick was a reach.Heck I never liked the Zboril pick at the time either even though central scouting had him there but he showed me alot by hanging with it and finally making it He was playing good to for the Bruins before that injury.Anyhow Bruins would not be able to keep them all at present moment in a cap world anyhow so I am going to just pray Donny has learned enough lessons to get it right in 2022.As I said before old Donny would have passed on Lysell so that's a good step forward.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Maybe his crystal ball wasn't working that day.

What does a crystal ball have to do with anything beyond you failing at a snarky comment?

No one is talking hindsight here. What I said is he literally could've walked to the podium with the TSN Draft Rankings, read the 1st 3 names not crossed out yet and walked away with Barzal, Connor and Meier...

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

Sweeney couldn't see into the future to see that the players his scouts wanted would be an ongoing joke in years to come.

people on this board were literally laughing at the picks immediately after they were made. this is a completely bullshit argument. Bob McKenzie was dumbfounded at the Senyshyn pick and wasn't even prepared to talk about him on day 1 of the draft.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Sweeney couldn't see into the future to see that the players his scouts wanted would be an ongoing joke in years to come.

Oh bullsh*t, literally the entire hockey world knew Barzal was a must take...except for Sweeney. Every poster on this site were elated (Bruins fans) or pissed (Bruins haters) that Barzal slipped to them.

Also, IDGAF what your scouts tell you. When the biggest team need is an elite young 1C, and a consensus Top 10 pick who happens to be just that falls to you, you take him. Period.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

What does a crystal ball have to do with anything beyond you failing at a snarky comment?

No one is talking hindsight here. What I said is he literally could've walked to the podium with the TSN Draft Rankings, read the 1st 3 names not crossed out yet and walked away with Barzal, Connor and Meier...

While that is true, it's still complete hindsight.

No GM drafts from the TSN Draft Rankings. Ever.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Oh bullsh*t, literally the entire hockey world knew Barzal was a must take...except for Sweeney. Every poster on this site were elated (Bruins fans) or pissed (Bruins haters) that Barzal slipped to them.

Also, IDGAF what your scouts tell you. When the biggest team need is an elite young 1C, and a consensus Top 10 pick who happens to be just that falls to you, you take him. Period.

Talk about bullshit.

Literally everyone knew.

Top need was elite center. Not.

You say Barzel was a consensus top 10 pick yet the Bruins could get him at 13. How is that? Everyone knew but Sweeney, yet Colorado, Florida and Dallas passed on him also. And who's the better player, Barzal or Aho? Everyone passed on him. Maybe everyone knowing isn't a guarantee of anything.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

people on this board were literally laughing at the picks immediately after they were made. this is a completely bullshit argument. Bob McKenzie was dumbfounded at the Senyshyn pick and wasn't even prepared to talk about him on day 1 of the draft.

Of course, people on this board are always right draft picks.

Other GMs must come here every year to see who they should draft.

Not making an argument for the picks being anything but bad. But posters here are talking about taking Barzal as if he were Connor McDavid.

 

[EverettMike]

So if I have this right, you can't blame Sweeney for the 2015 draft because despite six years on the same management team he wasn't prepared for the promotion he accepted. He then traded significant roster players for additional draft picks in the very draft he wasn't ready for. Then he relied on the same scouts that had done such a shitty job for the last GM it contributed to his firing. Which included listening to them when they pushed for a huge reach.

And during the making of those three picks they never even took a moment to listen to offers from other teams.

And this is a defense of Sweeney?

 

[MattFromFranklin]

Saw a lot of past draft talk in the Sweeney/Neely thread and figured it'd be wise to re-direct some of it here. Just took another look at the "reputable" lists (TSN, RLR, ISS, HP Blackbook, FC, THN) from 2015 and did the aggregate, which I have put below.

1. Connor McDavid (C)
2. Jack Eichel (C)
3. Noah Hanifin (D)
4. Mitch Marner (RW)
5. Dylan Strome (C)
6. Ivan Provorov (D)
7. Lawson Crouse (LW)
8. Mikko Rantanen (RW)
9. Pavel Zacha (C)
10. Mathew Barzal (C)
11. Zach Werenski (D)
12. Kyle Connor (LW)
13. Timo Meier (RW)
14. Travis Konecny (RW)
15. Nick Merkley (RW)
16. Evgeny Svechnikov (RW)
17. Thomas Chabot (D)
18. Joel Eriksson Ek (C)
19. Jeremy Roy (D)
20. Colin White (C)
21. Jakub Zboril (D)
22. Paul Bittner (LW)
23. Brock Boeser (RW)
24. Jansen Harkins (C)
25. Denis Gurianov (RW)
26. Jake DeBrusk (LW)
27. Oliver Kylington (D)
28. Ilya Samsonov (G)
29. Brandon Carlo (D)
30. Daniel Sprong (RW)
31. Noah Juulsen (D)
32. Jack Roslovic (C)
33. Gabriel Carlsson (D)
34. Filip Chlapik (C)
35. Vince Dunn (D)
36. Anthony Beauvillier (LW)
37. Jacob Larsson (D)
38. Mackenzie Blackwood (G)
39. Nicolas Meloche (D)
40. Zach Senyshyn (RW)


Jake DeBrusk's Average Ranking: 27.2
25 (RLR)
27 (ISS, FC)
28 (TSN, THN, HP)

Zach Senyshyn's Average Ranking: 42.8
39 (ISS)
40 (TSN)
42 (FC)
46 (RLR)
47 (THN)
HP-Couldn't find it

For comparison:

Mathew Barzal's Average Ranking: 9.5
8 (ISS)
9 (TSN, RLR, FC)
10 (THN)
12 (HP)

Kyle Connor's Average Ranking: 13.3
5 (HP)
11 (THN)
12 (FC)
13 (TSN, ISS)
26 (RLR)

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

Saw a lot of past draft talk in the Sweeney/Neely thread and figured it'd be wise to re-direct some of it here. Just took another look at the "reputable" lists (TSN, RLR, ISS, HP Blackbook, FC, THN) from 2015 and did the aggregate, which I have put below.

1. Connor McDavid (C)
2. Jack Eichel (C)
3. Noah Hanifin (D)
4. Mitch Marner (RW)
5. Dylan Strome (C)
6. Ivan Provorov (D)
7. Lawson Crouse (LW)
8. Mikko Rantanen (RW)
9. Pavel Zacha (C)
10. Mathew Barzal (C)
11. Zach Werenski (D)
12. Kyle Connor (LW)
13. Timo Meier (RW)
14. Travis Konecny (RW)
15. Nick Merkley (RW)
16. Evgeny Svechnikov (RW)
17. Thomas Chabot (D)
18. Joel Eriksson Ek (C)
19. Jeremy Roy (D)
20. Colin White (C)
21. Jakub Zboril (D)
22. Paul Bittner (LW)
23. Brock Boeser (RW)
24. Jansen Harkins (C)
25. Denis Gurianov (RW)
26. Jake DeBrusk (LW)
27. Oliver Kylington (D)
28. Ilya Samsonov (G)
29. Brandon Carlo (D)
30. Daniel Sprong (RW)
31. Noah Juulsen (D)
32. Jack Roslovic (C)
33. Gabriel Carlsson (D)
34. Filip Chlapik (C)
35. Vince Dunn (D)
36. Anthony Beauvillier (LW)
37. Jacob Larsson (D)
38. Mackenzie Blackwood (G)
39. Nicolas Meloche (D)
40. Zach Senyshyn (RW)


Jake DeBrusk's Average Ranking: 27.2
25 (RLR)
27 (ISS, FC)
28 (TSN, THN, HP)

Zach Senyshyn's Average Ranking: 42.8
39 (ISS)
40 (TSN)
42 (FC)
46 (RLR)
47 (THN)
HP-Couldn't find it

For comparison:

Mathew Barzal's Average Ranking: 9.5
8 (ISS)
9 (TSN, RLR, FC)
10 (THN)
12 (HP)

Kyle Connor's Average Ranking: 13.3
5 (HP)
11 (THN)
12 (FC)
13 (TSN, ISS)
26 (RLR)

look, man, Don Sweeney was a totally green hockey exec at the time of the draft. He had no way of knowing that the picks he was about to make were totally off the board.

 

[GoBs]

So if I have this right, you can't blame Sweeney for the 2015 draft because despite six years on the same management team he wasn't prepared for the promotion he accepted. He then traded significant roster players for additional draft picks in the very draft he wasn't ready for. Then he relied on the same scouts that had done such a shitty job for the last GM it contributed to his firing. Which included listening to them when they pushed for a huge reach.

And during the making of those three picks they never even took a moment to listen to offers from other teams.

And this is a defense of Sweeney?

I think you summed it up completely
Thank you

 

[MattFromFranklin]

look, man, Don Sweeney was a totally green hockey exec at the time of the draft. He had no way of knowing that the picks he was about to make were totally off the board.

The thing is, if you're going to reach and go off the board in a loaded draft you need to "hit" on the player. And I don't mean "hit" in the way that DeBrusk technically is. The player you reach/go off the board for needs to be just as good if not better than the player(s) you passed on to warrant that decision. For example, Sebastian Aho was selected 35th overall. Of the rankings I could find, he was ranked 61st on ISS, Honorable Mention (76-85) on TSN, 103rd on THN, and 110th on FC. That's an average rank of 87.5-89.8. He was a reach at the time, relative to his ranking, but their scouts were proven correct with their evaluation. In a re-draft, Aho would go around 5th overall. Jake and Zach were inferior players to Barzal and Connor at the time, and evaluations by the Bruins (Dean Malkoc) have proven 6-7 years later to have been completely off the mark.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

The thing is, if you're going to reach and go off the board in a loaded draft you need to "hit" on the player. And I don't mean "hit" in the way that DeBrusk technically is. The player you reach/go off the board for needs to be just as good if not better than the player(s) you passed on to warrant that decision. For example, Sebastian Aho was selected 35th overall. Of the rankings I could find, he was ranked 61st on ISS, Honorable Mention (76-85) on TSN, 103rd on THN, and 110th on FC. That's an average rank of 87.5-89.8. He was a reach at the time, relative to his ranking, but their scouts were proven correct with their evaluation. In a re-draft, Aho would go around 5th overall. Jake and Zach were inferior players to Barzal and Connor at the time, and evaluations by the Bruins (Dean Malkoc) have proven 6-7 years later to have been completely off the mark.

That's my biggest frustration with 2015 honestly.

I dont mind him making a reach pick with having 3 in a row. But you cant make 3 reaches and pass on Barzal. The reach wasn't the egregious error, reaching 3x was

 

[DKH]

how is it missing the point? I'm with Mike in that the argument that he wasn't prepared makes no sense to me. We're not talking about a guy coming from outside the org. He had been AGM for years and he acquired the picks. There were HF regulars with a better sense of who the top 20-30 prospects were in 2015, there's no excuse for Sweeney not having the lay of the land at the 2015 draft when he had been immersed in the the organization near the very top for years. And let's be real it's not like Sweeney would have been surprised to be named GM, he probably had plenty of time to start thinking about what the org needed before he got the job.

I get that maybe the scouting staff led him astray with those picks, but I would expect the guy who just got appointed to be NHL GM to have enough knowledge of the upcoming draft class to at the very least recognize that the Senyshyn pick was a big reach and push back on that. And I would think the fact that these scouts were the previous GM's guys would make Sweeney be a little more hands-on with the final selections, not less hands-on.

I just don't buy that Sweeney is absolved of responsibility for that draft just because he was new to the job. Sure you can chalk up the mistakes to inexperience or whatever, but the bottom line is he was the guy and they were still ultimately his mistakes.

Sweeney was overlord of the Providence Bruins in 2014-15 who played Friday- Sunday.

The CHL pretty played same nights.

unless Sweeney is a wizard with floo powder and access to a fire place at TD Garden to transport himself to Alberta, Quebec, and Ontario I don’t see how he watched these guys in person or as they played live.

Seems obvious to me the only guy he might have saw live was JFK at the Beanpot.

likely Sweeney sat there not knowing a heck of a lot about CHL high picks taken Zboril & Lauzon (Q), DeBrusk, Carlo, Gabreille (dub) and Senyshyn (OHL) and relied on those that did as wonderfully shown on Behind the B for those who have access to NESN

this clearly didn’t sit well as the 2016 draft the CHL was put on double secret probation and Gretzky left to join Oilers Czar Peter Chiarelli.
Sweeney did a 180 and went heavy on college, BCHL (Bradley area) and Europe (Svensson & Axelsson). McAvoy Freddy, & Lindgren all plucked from USA hockey & college bound

It’s really not hard to understand and everyone reading what I write should be thanking me for this information

 

[Fenian24]

Of course, people on this board are always right draft picks.

Other GMs must come here every year to see who they should draft.

Not making an argument for the picks being anything but bad. But posters here are talking about taking Barzal as if he were Connor McDavid.

Compared to Zach Senyshyn, Jake DeBrusk or Jacob Zboril he is.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

That's my biggest frustration with 2015 honestly.

I dont mind him making a reach pick with having 3 in a row. But you cant make 3 reaches and pass on Barzal. The reach wasn't the egregious error, reaching 3x was

the thing with the whole Sweeney vs the scouts thing is this: it's not a question for me if Sweeney should have known better re: who to pick. He should have known better. I don't like the hyperbole that "Barzal was a no-brainer". It doesn't have to be about one particular guy. The reality is that there were no less than 5 guys available at the 15 spot that would have been better options, even if you are gracious enough to let them slide on Zboril and Debrusk. The Senyshyn pick was the biggest reach and the most egregious mistake IMO. With that said, for me it comes down to the question of what Sweeney should have done with that knowledge. Should have have ignored the scouts and overridden them? Did he try? Did they debate it at all? I don't know, but at worst he should have compromised with them.

I get that there's a level of professional courtesy expected and that maybe just totally overriding them on all 3 picks wouldn't have been acceptable, but I would at least have expected a conversation to occur along the lines of: "Debrusk and Senyshyn are both a bit off the board. I'm not sure I want to go off the board with both picks, so you guys tell me which guy you feel most strongly about and we'll take him, but we go with the consensus on the other pick".

That would have at least been a reasonable approach, but the narrative I've heard from his defenders is that the scouts made the picks, and I'm sorry but I just can't accept that. If he simply let them make the choice with no push-back on the obvious Senyshyn reach then he should be held accountable for it because it was f***ing stupid.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

the thing with the whole Sweeney vs the scouts thing is this: it's not a question for me if Sweeney should have known better re: who to pick. He should have known better. I don't like the hyperbole that "Barzal was a no-brainer". It doesn't have to be about one particular guy. The reality is that there were no less than 5 guys available at the 15 spot that would have been better options, even if you are gracious enough to let them slide on Zboril and Debrusk. The Senyshyn pick was the biggest reach and the most egregious mistake IMO. With that said, for me it comes down to the question of what Sweeney should have done with that knowledge. Should have have ignored the scouts and overridden them? Did he try? Did they debate it at all? I don't know, but at worst he should have compromised with them.

I get that there's a level of professional courtesy expected and that maybe just totally overriding them on all 3 picks wouldn't have been acceptable, but I would at least have expected a conversation to occur along the lines of: "Debrusk and Senyshyn are both a bit off the board. I'm not sure I want to go off the board with both picks, so you guys tell me which guy you feel most strongly about and we'll take him, but we go with the consensus on the other pick".

That would have at least been a reasonable approach, but the narrative I've heard from his defenders is that the scouts made the picks, and I'm sorry but I just can't accept that. If he simply let them make the choice with no push-back on the obvious Senyshyn reach then he should be held accountable for it because it was f***ing stupid.

Fair. I harp on Barzal as the no brainer because of #1 team need being an elite center prospect at the time (and still today)

 

[PlayMakers]

Let's be honest, almost none of us know how an NHL front office works or processes a draft. We don't work for NHL teams or have close friends that do and tell us all about it. So how could any of us really know how much Sweeney was responsible for with regard to the 2015 draft? How many players did he see? Did he think highly of the scouts he inherited or trust their opinions?

It's not cutting him slack or apologizing for him. He f***ed up either way. Either he shouldn't have loaded up on picks for a draft he knew nothing about, or he thought he had a good handle on the draft and should have done a better job picking the players. Either way, it's a black mark. So if you need a pound of flesh for that draft there it is.

But if we're going to look forward and try to project how Sweeney will do in the future and in future drafts, does it not make more sense to look at the players they've taken from 2016 to present? In 2016 he had a full year on the job, and since then he's had time to make changes to the scouting staff, he's been able to see players in person, etc. Just seems like a more complete picture IMO.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean he's drafted well in that span, I made that argument in the Sweeney thread but I was hoping it would be more of a question and discussion. (Maybe I'll go back and change it.)

 

[MattFromFranklin]

Let's be honest, almost none of us know how an NHL front office works or processes a draft. We don't work for NHL teams or have close friends that do and tell us all about it. So how could any of us really know how much Sweeney was responsible for with regard to the 2015 draft? How many players did he see? Did he think highly of the scouts he inherited or trust their opinions?

It's not cutting him slack or apologizing for him. He f***ed up either way. Either he shouldn't have loaded up on picks for a draft he knew nothing about, or he thought he had a good handle on the draft and should have done a better job picking the players. Either way, it's a black mark. So if you need a pound of flesh for that draft there it is.

But if we're going to look forward and try to project how Sweeney will do in the future and in future drafts, does it not make more sense to look at the players they've taken from 2016 to present? In 2016 he had a full year on the job, and since then he's had time to make changes to the scouting staff, he's been able to see players in person, etc. Just seems like a more complete picture IMO.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean he's drafted well in that span, I made that argument in the Sweeney thread but I was hoping it would be more of a question and discussion. (Maybe I'll go back and change it.)

Dom posted that Chiarelli's brother was the OHL scout and the team didn't accept any input from him when Pete was on his way out. Apparently Dean Malkoc was the driving force behind picks 13-15, as he did a lot of crossover work. Someone (Dom?) also mentioned that the Bruins scouting staff expanded under Sweeney, which would indicate that the staff for the 2014-15 season was either unqualified or understaffed. Perhaps a mix of both.

I have always been under the impression that a GM would know the likely 1st rounders fairly well and perhaps some guys in the 2nd round, depending on where they were on their list. Heck, in BTB we saw Chiarelli giving his 2 cents on Pastrnak, Vrana, and Fabbri, which would indicate that he knew what type of players they were. He said he wanted to trade up to get Pastrnak or Vrana before the draft had even started. I don't expect a GM to have an intimate knowledge of late picks like Jesse Gabrielle or Cameron Hughes, for example. It's not uncommon for a GM to overrule some scouts on 1st round picks. I've read on the Vancouver board that Benning overruled some scouts on the Elias Pettersson selection. Jeff Gorton reportedly overruled head scout Scott Bradley in the 2006 draft. Bradley wanted to take Lucic at pick 37 but Gorton felt he would be there at pick 50.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Fair. I harp on Barzal as the no brainer because of #1 team need being an elite center prospect at the time (and still today)

Why do you say their #1 need was an elite center prospect?

They had Ryan Spooner. And Koko. And Donato. And Seth Griffith.

Seriously, Bergeron & Krejci were in their prime at the time. There was no great need at that point for a center.

 

[MattFromFranklin]

Why do you say their #1 need was an elite center prospect?

They had Ryan Spooner. And Koko. And Donato. And Seth Griffith.

Seriously, Bergeron & Krejci were in their prime at the time. There was no great need at that point for a center.

I've never been a believer in drafting for need unless there are 2-3 guys that are even and you opt for the position of need. Take the BPA every time, and that happened to be Barzal. If we somehow won the lottery or got the 2nd pick we wouldn't pass on McDavid or Eichel just because we had a lot of centers. That would be foolish. You take the BPA, regardless of position, and you sort things out after the fact. At the very least, Barzal had a hell of a lot more trade value than DeBrusk and Senyshyn.

Jake and Zach get a lot of blame but that is misdirected anger. They had no business going in the 13-15 range, let alone within 10 spots or so of our 1st selection. That's not their fault they were taken 10-15 and 25-30 spots too early, respectively. Neither of them should've been with this organization to begin with.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I've never been a believer in drafting for need unless there are 2-3 guys that are even and you opt for the position of need. Take the BPA every time, and that happened to be Barzal. If we somehow won the lottery or got the 2nd pick we wouldn't pass on McDavid or Eichel just because we had a lot of centers. That would be foolish. You take the BPA, regardless of position, and you sort things out after the fact. At the very least, Barzal had a hell of a lot more trade value than DeBrusk and Senyshyn.

Jake and Zach get a lot of blame but that is misdirected anger. They had no business going in the 13-15 range, let alone within 10 spots or so of our 1st selection. That's not their fault they were taken 10-15 and 25-30 spots too early, respectively. Neither of them should've been with this organization to begin with.

The best player available was Aho, not Barzal.

 

[MattFromFranklin]

The best player available was Aho, not Barzal.

Even if Aho was the BPA at the time, he was a Center. According to some, the Bruins should pass on that because of the depth they had at the position.