Proposal: Parayko for MacKinnon

[Paradise*]

I can't stand him in those Tim Hortons commercials. He's obviously there because he's from Cole Harbour. Couldn't they have found a better player that doesn't appear like a neanderthal?

 

[sfvega]

I don't get how Parayko benefits from having Shatty on the team when he's outplayed that guy for some time.

If I'm the Avs, I wouldn't do that deal. I think Parayko is playing better right now, but if they both hit at or near their ceilings, MacKinnon is the more valuable player. D-men always seem to get overvalued to me. They get a premium because there's not that many good ones, but play-for-play you're almost always giving up more for the caveat of a player who plays D and brings something harder to find and plays more minutes. At the same time, as a Blues fan, we'd be trading an absolutely electric Parayko for MacKinnon and his ceiling even moreso than Colorado would be. You can say that he's still young and on a bad team and these linemates and this ceiling, but I don't think there's enough said about the downside of him just being not as good as we all (myself included) thought he would be. I'm a fan of his skill, and I've got him in a keeper pool. But this is a pretty good time in his career to reassess expectations. Good player still with the upside to be a great player, but it's not at all as much of a slam dunk as once thought.

 

[Dbrownss]

I wouldn't say he is now but has the potential to be.

Howso....

 

[CutOnDime97]

If we are trading Parayko, I'm aiming higher than MacKinnon.

Lol...c'mon now. If that trade is on the table the Blues pull the trigger easily.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

In that same stretch, he has identical offensive numbers to Stastny, RNH, Turris, Stepan, Johnson, Koivu, Staal, Ribeiro, Monahan.

If your going to twist the numbers at least present a full picture. That's still very good company, but everyone acting like he is still a future superstar has tunnel vision IMO.

One of MacKinnon's big problems is his low shooting% that doesn't seem to be improving. Being at 7.5-8.5% is not good at all.

Oh no, a 21 year old hasn't greatly outproduced a bunch of guys who are older, play on better teams, and/or have previously been PPG (or close) players. Guess he's never going to improve and we should lower our expectations.

And, I agree that his shooting % is troubling. But, it's not like he really has anyone who would qualify as a "good setup guy" playing on his line. Duchene is a goal scorer, Landeskog is a 2 way guy, Iginla is a shooter, Comeau is a pylon...

 

[bleedblue1223]

MacKinnon has the 27th highest PPG of any C since the start of the 2013 season. The only Cs with a similar number of games played, a higher PPG and fewer PP points than MacKinnon are Duchene (two fewer PPPs) and Toews (1 fewer). Guys like Backstrom and Giroux had 60+ more PPP than MacKinnon or Duchene.

I wonder if having guys like Soderberg, the ghost of Iginla and Tanguay's corpse as his most common PP forward linemates last year has something to do with his PPP being so low...

Oh no, a 21 year old hasn't greatly outproduced a bunch of guys who are older, play on better teams, and/or have previously been PPG (or close) players. Guess he's never going to improve and we should lower our expectations.

And, I agree that his shooting % is troubling. But, it's not like he really has anyone who would qualify as a "good setup guy" playing on his line. Duchene is a goal scorer, Landeskog is a 2 way guy, Iginla is a shooter, Comeau is a pylon...

I never said he can't improve. You are the one who framed your comment that all MacKinnon has to do is improve his PP and then he's magically elite, and he's not elite because his teammates on the PP suck. If MacKinnon was as good as people think, you wouldn't have to blame his linemates for lower production. He plays with enough talent over the years for that not to be an issue.

Monahan and RNH are in very similar situation as him as far as age, ability of teammates, production, etc. MacKinnon is much closer to them than he is to someone like Barkov, who has similar production, but is on his way to being Kopitar.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I never said he can't improve. You are the one who framed your comment that all MacKinnon has to do is improve his PP and then he's magically elite, and he's not elite because his teammates on the PP suck. If MacKinnon was as good as people think, you wouldn't have to blame his linemates for lower production. He plays with enough talent over the years for that not to be an issue.

Monahan and RNH are in very similar situation as him as far as age, ability of teammates, production, etc. MacKinnon is much closer to them than he is to someone like Barkov, who has similar production, but is on his way to being Kopitar.

RNH played a lot of games with Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle over the last 3+ years. Monahan is close in age, but also played 23 more games since 2013, and almost 82% of his shifts with a guy named Gaudreau last season. Would you rather play with Gaudreau or Landeskog, if you're looking to score points? Hall/Eberle or Jarome Iginla's ghost? McDavid for some PP time, or Blake Comeau?

 

[bleedblue1223]

RNH played a lot of games with Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle over the last 3+ years. Monahan is close in age, but also played 23 more games since 2013, and almost 82% of his shifts with a guy named Gaudreau last season. Would you rather play with Gaudreau or Landeskog, if you're looking to score points? Hall/Eberle or Jarome Iginla's ghost? McDavid for some PP time, or Blake Comeau?

Just to play along, who do you think is a good comparable for MacKinnon? Or do you think he's in this weird grey area where he's in a bad situation and can't produce to his potential and his true comps have good teammates and produce more, but the players that produce like him do so because of their teammates?

At the end of the day, the truly elite produce. Tavares went 81 in 82 in his 3rd season with Moulson and Parenteau.

 

[Paradise*]

Just to play along, who do you think is a good comparable for MacKinnon? Or do you think he's in this weird grey area where he's in a bad situation and can't produce to his potential and his true comps have good teammates and produce more, but the players that produce like him do so because of their teammates?

At the end of the day, the truly elite produce. Tavares went 81 in 82 in his 3rd season with Moulson and Parenteau.

Your're only going to get excuses...not answers.

 

[Nordic*]

No one in Colorado looks good.

If MC played elsewhere, for instance in the Rangers, he would havea lot more points.

Colorado is simply a mismanaged team where pretty much every single player is under-performing.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Just to play along, who do you think is a good comparable for MacKinnon? Or do you think he's in this weird grey area where he's in a bad situation and can't produce to his potential and his true comps have good teammates and produce more, but the players that produce like him do so because of their teammates?

At the end of the day, the truly elite produce. Tavares went 81 in 82 in his 3rd season with Moulson and Parenteau.

I think Monahan actually isn't a bad comparison, but MacKinnon has produced more with less. Both teams have been near the playoff bubble, but Calgary scores more team goals, and Monahan spends a lot more of his shifts with a better winger. If they played the same number of games, and kept the same PPG, MacKinnon would have 188 points, 11 more than Monahan.

I also would probably agree that MacKinnon is in some weird grey area. He's playing around some good guys, but not really anyone who compliments his style offensively. He's like Seguin in Boston. You can see the skill, but he probably needs his own version of Benn to really explode.

And, since you brought up Tavares, let's talk about that third year. Sure, Moulson isn't elite, but he had chemistry with Tavares from playing so much together. Tavares' rookie season, he spent 60% of his ES shifts with Moulson. The next year, it was 83.3%. The year you mentioned, it was 84.5% (96.7% on the PP). They developed a chemistry and played well together. Moulson definitely wasn't great on his own, but with Tavares feeding him the puck, he was a 3 time 30 goal scorer.

Parenteau was the third part of that line, and chipped in 68 points himself. Of course, he went to play with Duchene the next year and scored at a higher PPG. Not sure if that means that Parenteau just had some good seasons, or that Duchene is better than Tavares...

After seeing what Tavares was able to do, playing for 3 straight years with Moulson on the vast majority of his shifts, I'd love to see what happens if the Avs would put MacKinnon on a line with someone like Rantanen and just let them play together, game in and game out, for a full season, or two. Build that chemistry, and learn the other guy's tendencies, so they play more like a unit, and not just two guys on the ice together.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Maybe the Seguin comp could be true. I'd argue that Seguin's style was just a horrible fit for the style that Boston tried to get him to play. Similar thing to when Kessel left and was able to be more free offensively. But that's definitely a reasonable comp, I could see that.

 

[rumrokh]

Maybe the Seguin comp could be true. I'd argue that Seguin's style was just a horrible fit for the style that Boston tried to get him to play. Similar thing to when Kessel left and was able to be more free offensively. But that's definitely a reasonable comp, I could see that.

I think Seguin has always looked like a smarter player, though. He has an elite shot and he's fast, but he doesn't get by on tools as much as MacKinnon does. Mac's still a good player, but I'm way more skeptical that he'll ever ratchet up to the next level, and if he does, it might take him years of just gradually learning.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Maybe the Seguin comp could be true. I'd argue that Seguin's style was just a horrible fit for the style that Boston tried to get him to play. Similar thing to when Kessel left and was able to be more free offensively. But that's definitely a reasonable comp, I could see that.

I would definitely agree that Seguin's style didn't fit Boston's system. But, I'd also point out that Roy's "system" wasn't exactly working out too well in Denver, and this year has seen injuries and older guys struggling.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I think Seguin has always looked like a smarter player, though. He has an elite shot and he's fast, but he doesn't get by on tools as much as MacKinnon does. Mac's still a good player, but I'm way more skeptical that he'll ever ratchet up to the next level, and if he does, it might take him years of just gradually learning.

Every player is a little different, so there really isn't a perfect comparison for anyone. But, they both faced similar situations over their first 3 years, with glimpses of their skill level, but something just not working.

I'd agree Seguin probably thinks the game better. But, I'm hopeful that MacKinnon will figure out how to be one of the league's elite players in the next few years.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I would definitely agree that Seguin's style didn't fit Boston's system. But, I'd also point out that Roy's "system" wasn't exactly working out too well in Denver, and this year has seen injuries and older guys struggling.

Roy had a system?

 

[bleedblue1223]

I think Seguin has always looked like a smarter player, though. He has an elite shot and he's fast, but he doesn't get by on tools as much as MacKinnon does. Mac's still a good player, but I'm way more skeptical that he'll ever ratchet up to the next level, and if he does, it might take him years of just gradually learning.

I agree, to me Mac is more like Hall just a center version of him.

 

[MissouriMook]

I don't really get the angst from Blues posters on the idea of trading Parayko for MacKinnon. Maybe MacK hasn't lived up to expectations to this point, but at 21 he is already a proven 55-60 point guy with great speed and would instantly be the most dynamic center on our team. There is no guarantee that he will ever be a PPG player or an elite #1C, but there is no guarantee either that Parayko will continue to develop into a #1D. Putting MacKinnon in between Fabbri and Tarasenko for the next six years and all it costs you is Parayko is pretty close to a best case scenario for the Blues. Filling that void is going to hurt, one way or another.

The biggest issue I have with the trade proposal is that it doesn't really seem to make sense for the Avs. I think it makes perfect sense for the Blues.

 

[Evocable Manager]

The trade would never work anyway. A team scrunched against the cap is exchanging an ELC for a 6M+ contract. So unless Colorado takes Lehtera and Yakupov (presumably needing to give us cheap replacements for one of them as well) it wouldn't work cap wise. Adding in Lehtera makes the situation even more complicated cause now we need to add a piece to entice Colorado to take Lehtera.

That said, Colorado won't move MacKinnon and I don't want the Blues to move Parayko (nothing against Nate, it Parayko is just so good, I don't wanna see him gone unless for a massive overpayment).

Lastly, divisional opponents won't make a trade of this magnitude, with young stars involved.

 

[rumrokh]

I don't really get the angst from Blues posters on the idea of trading Parayko for MacKinnon. Maybe MacK hasn't lived up to expectations to this point, but at 21 he is already a proven 55-60 point guy with great speed and would instantly be the most dynamic center on our team. There is no guarantee that he will ever be a PPG player or an elite #1C, but there is no guarantee either that Parayko will continue to develop into a #1D. Putting MacKinnon in between Fabbri and Tarasenko for the next six years and all it costs you is Parayko is pretty close to a best case scenario for the Blues. Filling that void is going to hurt, one way or another.

The biggest issue I have with the trade proposal is that it doesn't really seem to make sense for the Avs. I think it makes perfect sense for the Blues.

I think the problem is that Parayko is already better than Shattenkirk is and this deal revolves around signing Shattenkirk, which will probably be for a lot more than he's worth. Parayko's emergence was a big part of the Blues' deeper playoff run last season and it's hard to trust that MacKinnon will provide the same quality. You need good centers, but it's even more important to have a killer top 4 defense to win the Cup. So the apparent "trading from strength" wisdom with this one isn't as easy as it obviously seems to some fans.

Also, I think it does make decent sense for the Avalanche. Their defense is embarrassing, isn't getting better anytime soon, and they already have Duchene (and Jost on the way if he keeps developing and sticks at center). That doesn't mean it's an ideal proposal or that they should take it if offered, but it does make sense, even if not perfect sense.

 

[Ranksu]

MacKinnon has really develope to 1c.

 

[67Blues]

 

[olli]

Pretty funny reading through this thread.

 

[Beerz]

If we are trading Parayko, I'm aiming higher than MacKinnon.

wth


edit: didnt realize this was a bump but still...some of the comments are still funny

 

[57special]

If we are trading Parayko, I'm aiming higher than MacKinnon.

You're kidding, right?