Pre-Game Talk: Panthers @ Lightning Oct 6: Hockey's back

[IceManCat]

Disagree, Vatrano and Malgin are nhl players on pretty much any team especially Malgin. Both are also improvements over McGinn imo. Borstrom adds competition and will be called up if someone is underperforming.



No, we don't have competition every year. Last year we had Henrik frickin Haapala starting in the top six. The depth was terrible compared to this year.

Who do we have competing this year Troy Brouwer? This will really make us competitive now

 

[HockeyRulez]

I’m a big fan of McCann but even I know a third line of vatrano McCann Malgin is too small and soft a line. I’d rather sceviour play on the third and vatrano on the fourth tbh

 

[RogerRoger]

I see no argument that Malgin or Vatrano are better than Jamie Mcginn who is a physical third line veteran player. As a matter of fact neither were able to beat him for a spot last year and would not have this year either. The argument is not whether they are NHL players the argument is whether they are improvements over the previous ones.

1.26 P1/60, 50.88 CF%, 1.9 RelCF%, 54.35 GF%, 5.52 RelGF%, 48.87 xGF%, 2.38 RelxGF%
1.46 P1/60, 54.05 CF%, 2.4 RelCF%, 58.62 GF%, 6.45 RelGF%, 51.59 xGF%, 0.06 RelxGF%
1.22 P1/60, 46.17 CF%, -3.92RelCF%, 49.37 GF%, 1.02 RelGF%, 45.23 xGF%, -4.67 RelxGF%

The higher the better for all of these. Guess which one is McGinn?

Or we could try to compare their play when they were on the second line. They both spent more than 50 minutes of 5v5 with Huberdeau and Trocheck on the second line. Let's see how they fared.

53.65 CF%, 5.37 RelCF%, 53 GF%, 2.13 RelGF%, 50.3 xGF%, 4.16 RelxGF%
53.28 CF%, 0.73 RelCF%, 80 GF%, 34.17 RelGF%, 44.26 xGF%, -8.09 RelxGF%
43.63 CF%, -5.61 RelCF%, 40 GF%, -19.3 RelGF%, 43.74 xGF%, -9.08 RelxGF%

I'll give you a hint, the only time a line with Trocheck (that has played 50 minutes together) has a negative goal differential, it's when they are on a line with McGinn!!

Actually, that's also true for Huberdeau, McCann and Bjugstad! Wow, McGinn is so unlucky!

Now, I know that this is just stats. It's just the result of how they play together. But hopefully, you have an argument other than Boughner deciding that McGinn should start higher (than Malgin) in the lineup at the beginning of the season. Because otherwise, you'd have to argue that Vrbata was a better choice to play on the first line than Dadonov or Bjugstad, since Vrbata started there over either of them.

 

[Gentle Man]

After Vatrano was acquired he didnt start every game he was in and out of the line up he was not a regular on the team therefore he didnt beat anyone out including McGinn. Vatrano showed nice scoring ability towards the last few games down the stretch he was pretty invisible otherwise.

He played in 16 out of 24 games. One of the games was the day of the trade.

Also, he was injured when we got him. He had a high ankle injury.

His first game as a Panther was March 10th....because that is when he was healthy enough to play. Meaning you can strike 8 games out of that final 24, which is how many were left after the trade transpired.

Meaning what...he actually played the majority of the games he was available! He missed 1 game.

Well fancy that.

Come on man.

 

[IceManCat]

1.26 P1/60, 50.88 CF%, 1.9 RelCF%, 54.35 GF%, 5.52 RelGF%, 48.87 xGF%, 2.38 RelxGF%
1.46 P1/60, 54.05 CF%, 2.4 RelCF%, 58.62 GF%, 6.45 RelGF%, 51.59 xGF%, 0.06 RelxGF%
1.22 P1/60, 46.17 CF%, -3.92RelCF%, 49.37 GF%, 1.02 RelGF%, 45.23 xGF%, -4.67 RelxGF%

The higher the better for all of these. Guess which one is McGinn?

Or we could try to compare their play when they were on the second line. They both spent more than 50 minutes of 5v5 with Huberdeau and Trocheck on the second line. Let's see how they fared.

53.65 CF%, 5.37 RelCF%, 53 GF%, 2.13 RelGF%, 50.3 xGF%, 4.16 RelxGF%
53.28 CF%, 0.73 RelCF%, 80 GF%, 34.17 RelGF%, 44.26 xGF%, -8.09 RelxGF%
43.63 CF%, -5.61 RelCF%, 40 GF%, -19.3 RelGF%, 43.74 xGF%, -9.08 RelxGF%

I'll give you a hint, the only time a line with Trocheck (that has played 50 minutes together) has a negative goal differential, it's when they are on a line with McGinn!!

Actually, that's also true for Huberdeau, McCann and Bjugstad! Wow, McGinn is so unlucky!

Now, I know that this is just stats. It's just the result of how they play together. But hopefully, you have an argument other than Boughner deciding that McGinn should start higher (than Malgin) in the lineup at the beginning of the season. Because otherwise, you'd have to argue that Vrbata was a better choice to play on the first line than Dadonov or Bjugstad, since Vrbata started there over either of them.

You folks are out to lunch if you think we will have a competitive third line with these guys out there.


Good luck when they face Crosby, Malkin, Mathews, Tavares, Stamkos etc.. Oh wait they won't it'll be Barkov again just like last year playing 5 million minutes per game because we failed to have an adequate third line that could face the others teams top competition.

 

[Gentle Man]

You folks are out to lunch if you think we will have a competitive third line with these guys out there.


Good luck when they face Crosby, Malkin, Mathews, Tavares, Stamkos etc.. Oh wait they won't it'll be Barkov again just like last year playing 5 million minutes per game because we failed to have an adequate third line that could face the others teams top competition.

Why would our third line be facing 1st and 2nd liners anyway?

 

[IceManCat]

He played in 16 out of 24 games. One of the games was the day of the trade.

Also, he was injured when we got him. He had a high ankle injury.

His first game as a Panther was March 10th....because that is when he was healthy enough to play. Meaning you can strike 8 games out of that final 24, which is how many were left after the trade transpired.

Meaning what...he actually played the majority of the games he was available! He missed 1 game.

Well fancy that.

Come on man.

Come on man this guy is invisible unless he's sniping the puck from the slot. He isn't physical isnt a great passer you want this guy on the third line a line presumably tasked to stop the other team from scoring. Mind you he is 5'9...

 

[IceManCat]

Why would our third line be facing 1st and 2nd liners anyway?

Do you watch hockey ? The third line on most teams is a shutdown line so that the other two top lines can focus on the offense. Not on the Panthers though want to know why? Because we have no depth to do that. Therefore Barkov has to play more than necessary.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

Do you watch hockey ? The third line on most teams is a shutdown line so that the other two top lines can focus on the offense.

I don't think you watch much hockey if you think this is the case.

 

[Gentle Man]

Do you watch hockey ? The third line on most teams is a shutdown line so that the other two top lines can focus on the offense. Not on the Panthers though want to know why? Because we have no depth to do that. Therefore Barkov has to play more than necessary.

That's the old thinking.

Kessell is no shutdown man.

Don't get fixated on labels. If you have the talent to spread our 3 scoring lines, you do it.

Your telling me if they buy my idea of

Dadonov Barkov Bjustad
Vatrano Trocheck Malgin
Huberdeau McCann Hoffman

That the 3rd line is for shutting teams down? Nah. That is the old way of thinking. There is more than enough talent to throw out 3 lines. And when you can, you are doing something right.

Your top lines go against the other team's top lines. If you have your bottom 6 going against a Crosby line, you made a mistake in your rotation.

 

[RogerRoger]

"

After Vatrano was acquired he didnt start every game he was in and out of the line up he was not a regular on the team therefore he didnt beat anyone out including McGinn. Vatrano showed nice scoring ability towards the last few games down the stretch he was pretty invisible otherwise.

That's false. Vatrano missed a few games after he was traded for because he was injured. Once he was healthy he played every game except one against Boston where he was injured. In your own words "did you even think about what you posed before doing so?"

Do you watch hockey ? The third line on most teams is a shutdown line so that the other two top lines can focus on the offense. Not on the Panthers though want to know why? Because we have no depth to do that. Therefore Barkov has to play more than necessary.

How many third lines do you think can shut down Crosby, Malkin, Mathews, Tavares, Stamkos etc?
I'll help you out: Teams

And how good would these guys be if they can't even beat the third lines of most teams?

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

First goal of the game?
I'm picking Ekblad, just a hunch.

 

[vendetta]

Do you watch hockey ? The third line on most teams is a shutdown line so that the other two top lines can focus on the offense. Not on the Panthers though want to know why? Because we have no depth to do that. Therefore Barkov has to play more than necessary.

Sir this 2018. U need to get out of the past.

 

[Ghoste]

First goal of the game?
I'm picking Ekblad, just a hunch.

I will go with Dads.

Are we doing the Points Game?

-ghoste

 

[ShootIt]

First goal of the game?
I'm picking Ekblad, just a hunch.

None. Shutout cause we don't have a 40 goal scorer.





Going to go with Bjugstad.

 

[IceManCat]

Sir this 2018. U need to get out of the past.

Im right here in the present in 2018 most teams not counting the Penguins have a third line primarily tasked to shut down the other teams primary lines. Not many teams have an all out defensively liable third line.

 

[IceManCat]

That's the old thinking.

Kessell is no shutdown man.

Don't get fixated on labels. If you have the talent to spread our 3 scoring lines, you do it.

Your telling me if they buy my idea of

Dadonov Barkov Bjustad
Vatrano Trocheck Malgin
Huberdeau McCann Hoffman

That the 3rd line is for shutting teams down? Nah. That is the old way of thinking. There is more than enough talent to throw out 3 lines. And when you can, you are doing something right.

Your top lines go against the other team's top lines. If you have your bottom 6 going against a Crosby line, you made a mistake in your rotation.

Do we have anywhere near the talent level of the Penguins ? Of course if he had Kessel, Malkin, Crosby and company we could afford to have average wingers and no defensive lines.

 

[IceManCat]

That's the old thinking.

Kessell is no shutdown man.

Don't get fixated on labels. If you have the talent to spread our 3 scoring lines, you do it.

Your telling me if they buy my idea of

Dadonov Barkov Bjustad
Vatrano Trocheck Malgin
Huberdeau McCann Hoffman

That the 3rd line is for shutting teams down? Nah. That is the old way of thinking. There is more than enough talent to throw out 3 lines. And when you can, you are doing something right.

Your top lines go against the other team's top lines. If you have your bottom 6 going against a Crosby line, you made a mistake in your rotation.

If thats the case then why was Barkov gassed at the end of the year? It was evident that he was gassed because he was the one being tasked to go up against the other teams top lines. And what you are saying is simply not true, the top lines do not play each other unless the coach likes that specific matchup. Traditionally and in modern times the third line and sometimes the fourth checking line is tasked with the defensive responsibility. To further my point on most teams the bottom Sixers are the ones that penalty kill reason being they are typically the best defensive players.

This is common knowledge and not something out of a history book. It is still like this today with the exception of a few powerhouse offensive teams like the Jets, Penguins etc... Who's offensive is so overwhelming they don't need to care for the defensive center. We clearly do not have an offensive powerhouse third line. Our third line center scored a whopping 9 goals last year... No one is getting fixated on labels you are the one hyperbolizing all of my points.

 

[IceManCat]

I started a thread on the main board lets see what everyone thinks

Is your team's third/fourth line primarily tasked with stopping the other team's top line ?

or

Is your teams third/fourth line asked to prove secondary scoring leaving the top lines to go against the opposing top lines ?​

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/third-line-shutdown-line.2552363/

 

[Gentle Man]

Do we have anywhere near the talent level of the Penguins ? Of course if he had Kessel, Malkin, Crosby and company we could afford to have average wingers and no defensive lines.

If thats the case then why was Barkov gassed at the end of the year? It was evident that he was gassed because he was the one being tasked to go up against the other teams top lines. And what you are saying is simply not true, the top lines do not play each other unless the coach likes that specific matchup. Traditionally and in modern times the third line and sometimes the fourth checking line is tasked with the defensive responsibility. To further my point on most teams the bottom Sixers are the ones that penalty kill reason being they are typically the best defensive players.

This is common knowledge and not something out of a history book. It is still like this today with the exception of a few powerhouse offensive teams like the Jets, Penguins etc... Who's offensive is so overwhelming they don't need to care for the defensive center. We clearly do not have an offensive powerhouse third line. Our third line center scored a whopping 9 goals last year... No one is getting fixated on labels you are the one hyperbolizing all of my points.

Barkov was gassed because he was overused. Has nothing to do with going against the other team's top lines. Every team has their lines go head to head UNLESS you are purposefully trying to avoid that match-up. As in, Kadri would match up against Barkov and not Matthews.

In the old way of thinking where talent was more scarce, yes, your 3rd and 4th lines are your checking lines....moreso the 4th than the 3rd.

Most teams absolutely use their top 2 lines for PKing IF they are the best defensive players you have. Being a 3rd liner doesnt make you the best defensive forward lol. Thats ridiculous.

Getzlaf, Kopitar, Perry, Thornton, BERGERON, Marchand. Reilly Smith. William Karlsson. Toews. Hossa. Datsyuk when he played. Kesler when he didnt play for the Ducks. These guys all did PK work. And hell, they do shutdown work. Give me a break dude. I am not hyperbolizing anything. Should I list more players? Cause damn it we will be here all day.

Your stuck on the 3rd and 4th being used for a certain role. Those days are done.

Again, your telling me that if you put Huberdeau and or Hoffman on the 3rd then we wouldnt have 3 scoring lines?

You are absolutely getting stuck on labels.

 

[IceManCat]

Barkov was gassed because he was overused. Has nothing to do with going against the other team's top lines. Every team has their lines go head to head UNLESS you are purposefully trying to avoid that match-up. As in, Kadri would match up against Barkov and not Matthews.

In the old way of thinking where talent was more scarce, yes, your 3rd and 4th lines are your checking lines....moreso the 4th than the 3rd.

Most teams absolutely use their top 2 lines for PKing IF they are the best defensive players you have. Being a 3rd liner doesnt make you the best defensive forward lol. Thats ridiculous.

Getzlaf, Kopitar, Perry, Thornton, BERGERON, Marchand. Reilly Smith. William Karlsson. Toews. Hossa. Datsyuk when he played. Kesler when he didnt play for the Ducks. Give me a break dude. I am not hyperbolizing anything. Should I list more players? Cause damn it we will be here all day.

Your stuck on the 3rd and 4th being used for a certain role. Those days are done.

Again, your telling me that if you put Huberdeau and or Hoffman on the 3rd then we wouldnt have 3 scoring lines?

You are absolutely getting stuck on labels.

No one is getting stuck on labels here buddy and like I said you keep hyperbolizing my points of course their are top six players who penalty kill it has always been the case and of course the coach will send a third line, first etc if he likes the matchup.

Call it a label of third line or fourth line etccc whatever you want to call it teams have a "defensive line" that are predominately tasked to match up against the other teams top line. That "defensive" line (third line/fourth) is typically not one of the top two scoring lines. There I tried to explain that best I could without attaching a label so you don't hyperbolize my points.

 

[Drugs Delaney]

I will go with Dads.

Are we doing the Points Game?

-ghoste

Daddy for me as well.

 

[RogerRoger]

Im right here in the present in 2018 most teams not counting the Penguins have a third line primarily tasked to shut down the other teams primary lines. Not many teams have an all out defensively liable third line.

No, Crosby and Malkin both play against the best lines, not Brassard or Sheahan. WSH at PIT
You can look up the other games if you want. But Crosby was paired against the 1st line, Malkin against the 2nd.

If thats the case then why was Barkov gassed at the end of the year? It was evident that he was gassed because he was the one being tasked to go up against the other teams top lines. And what you are saying is simply not true, the top lines do not play each other unless the coach likes that specific matchup. Traditionally and in modern times the third line and sometimes the fourth checking line is tasked with the defensive responsibility. To further my point on most teams the bottom Sixers are the ones that penalty kill reason being they are typically the best defensive players.

Not all teams play their best guys on the PK because it is very tiring. That's part of the reason why Barkov was tired by the end of the year.
Then again, Barkov was the 2nd best PKers behind Dustin Brown. Mackenzie was 101 out of 108 PKers that had more than 100 minutes on the PK. (GA/60)

Call it a label of third line or fourth line etccc whatever you want to call it teams have a "defensive line" that are predominately tasked to match up against the other teams top line. That "defensive" line (third line/fourth) is typically not one of the top two scoring lines. There I tried to explain that best I could without attaching a label so you don't hyperbolize my points.

Okay, that's an interesting hypothesis. You were demonstrably wrong about Pittsburgh, so I'm curious, what other team do you think play their "defensive line" against the other team top offensive line?

 

[IceManCat]

No, Crosby and Malkin both play against the best lines, not Brassard or Sheahan. WSH at PIT
You can look up the other games if you want. But Crosby was paired against the 1st line, Malkin against the 2nd.


Not all teams play their best guys on the PK because it is very tiring. That's part of the reason why Barkov was tired by the end of the year.
Then again, Barkov was the 2nd best PKers behind Dustin Brown. Mackenzie was 101 out of 108 PKers that had more than 100 minutes on the PK. (GA/60)


Okay, that's an interesting hypothesis. You were demonstrably wrong about Pittsburgh, so I'm curious, what other team do you think play their "defensive line" against the other team top offensive line?

Man, everybody knows that Pittsburgh doesn't have a defensive line since Jordan Staal. I NEVER once said that ALL TEAMS do this. This is exactly what I'm talking about with you hyperbolizing every point. Holy **** you did it again. lol.


According to the thread I started the Winnipeg Jets employ the Lowry line against the other teams top line. This is a clear example of a "defensive" line being employed against the other teams top line. Another person said the Soderberg line for the Avalanche is their "defensive" third line. While the Mackinnon (1st) and Jost(2nd) line take on offensive roles.



https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/third-line-shutdown-line.2552363/

 

[Holy Jokinen]

Yep ! Exactly mate !

And if I'm right Bertuzzi had a four-point night ! Got the impression he had a hat-trick but maybe it was three assists, can't recall exactly...

Didn't Ruslan Salei score too?