Pre-Game Talk: Panthers @ Lightning Oct 6: Hockey's back

[Ghoste]

Our D played good in the second half. But if Bob can truly tweak some things as to where we can lessen the amount of shots/work for our tendys, that would be great.

-ghoste

 

[BabyBennettov]

Didnt we score 7 that game?

Yep ! Exactly mate !

And if I'm right Bertuzzi had a four-point night ! Got the impression he had a hat-trick but maybe it was three assists, can't recall exactly...

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

The defense was pretty mediocre last year, gave up too many shots and goals, even though they settled down the 2nd half. I think everyone would agree that Pysyk was out of his depth and that Yandle and Ekblad should be split up, so it's pretty disappointing to see no changes. I thought the whole point of bringing in Kiselevich was to try him in the top 4 but it just seems like he was brought in to challenge for a 3rd pairing spot-not that I am particularly enamored with Petrovic or anything but I'd have liked changes to the top 4 .

 

[MintyFresh88]

It sort of bothers me to hear Boughner and especially Tallon keep referring to the second half of last year in regards to this year's team and being able to replicate that to start this year. It was either pre or post game on Wednesday night, but here's what Mike Babcock said regarding this...Babcock: "I think you think there's a big carry over from year-to-year & there's not. I've been in the league a long time & you start over again each & every year. This is a different kind of team with a different set of expectations ..."

If we keep making roster decisions based on last year's second half run and think we're going to get the same results, I think it's a big risk. Hopefully this team realizes that they need to actually work and earn wins and points each and every night from game 1 onward. I also hope there isn't any hesitation to actually sit guys like Mack and Haley if it becomes clear that they are more of a liability than an asset...which honestly, based off of last year, should have been clear, but here we are.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

Our top 6 is great but we failed to address the big problem last year which was depth in the bottom 6 we are essentially bringing the same bottom 6 as last year. We added Kiselvich to the D-Core which is nice but he is still unproven and will be until his eventual return. I am especially not happy seeing Yandle and Ekblad back together I just don't see a great fit there even though they were decent last year. I was hoping for the coaches to spread the defense and the offense around which doesn't look like is happening this year.

I mean, you're basically saying that fix every problem and anything short of that is a fail.

I'm sure all teams have a lot of problems they need to fix and just can't do it. Either they would have to give up something they don't want or don't have the assets to do it.

Getting a legit top 6 winger was a big improvement. Nothing is ever perfect unless you're armchair GMing.

 

[drktmplr12]

omg third day of hockey and still more than 24 hours before the panthers play. who would do this to someone?

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

It sort of bothers me to hear Boughner and especially Tallon keep referring to the second half of last year in regards to this year's team and being able to replicate that to start this year. It was either pre or post game on Wednesday night, but here's what Mike Babcock said regarding this...Babcock: "I think you think there's a big carry over from year-to-year & there's not. I've been in the league a long time & you start over again each & every year. This is a different kind of team with a different set of expectations ..."

If we keep making roster decisions based on last year's second half run and think we're going to get the same results, I think it's a big risk. Hopefully this team realizes that they need to actually work and earn wins and points each and every night from game 1 onward. I also hope there isn't any hesitation to actually sit guys like Mack and Haley if it becomes clear that they are more of a liability than an asset...which honestly, based off of last year, should have been clear, but here we are.

Babcock is right. If this team thinks that they can just think that since they added couple of good players into their roster they'll be a shoo-in making the playoffs then they'll be wrong about it. Probably the first victim of such attitude is Borg when he thought that he was much stronger coming into this season when quite obviously he didn't put on even a pound of muscle during the off-season. Ek carried the same sense of pride on his second season when his off-season training revolved around eating Twinkies and Poutine.

I don't think that the second will mesh together until December or January because it looks like three players are trying to execute their own game plan and neither is connecting each others' plans at all. Troch is going for the do-it-all approach, Hubs is at the moment totally irrelevant to the outcome and Hoff is trying to deke and shoot the puck whenever he gets it. I'd wager that the 3rd line will be better than the 2nd line for the first two months or so.

There's really no excuses this time around. For an example, if the defensemen fail this season and the Cats miss the playoffs, Tallon and the Calculator have no trouble of finding ppl to blame. The mgmt has too many options to play with to initiate another major change with the personnel if need be.

 

[RogerRoger]

Our top 6 is great but we failed to address the big problem last year which was depth in the bottom 6 we are essentially bringing the same bottom 6 as last year. We added Kiselvich to the D-Core which is nice but he is still unproven and will be until his eventual return. I am especially not happy seeing Yandle and Ekblad back together I just don't see a great fit there even though they were decent last year. I was hoping for the coaches to spread the defense and the offense around which doesn't look like is happening this year.

Vatrano-McCann-Malgin
Brouwer-Mack-Sceviour

McGinn-McCann-Vrbata
Haley-Mack-Sceviour

The third line should be much better and the fourth line could improve if Brouwer plays over Haley. I think both bottom line are improved. Also, Tippett who was unable to keep up won't sink the team for a bunch of games. We have Greco, Mamin, and Lamm that could come up. We also have Ang, Hunt, Borg, Repo, Bajkov playing in the AHL. So we'll see soon enough what upside we have in them.

Also, defensively they won't play McCoshen who was not up to par last season. Hopefully, MacDonald will prove to be better and Stillman and Schemitsch will prove to be great young guys. Melchiori could also be a solid call up seeing how he fared okay during the preseason.

 

[IceManCat]

I mean, you're basically saying that fix every problem and anything short of that is a fail.

I'm sure all teams have a lot of problems they need to fix and just can't do it. Either they would have to give up something they don't want or don't have the assets to do it.

Getting a legit top 6 winger was a big improvement. Nothing is ever perfect unless you're armchair GMing.

That's quite the exaggeration there Shakespeare. And of course not what I am saying. I am emphasizing that this team had major weaknesses last year that led to a short coming down the stretch and early in the season. Those weaknesses are still present regardless of who we added in the top 6 which is irrelevant to the point I made anyways?

 

[Gentle Man]

The defense was pretty mediocre last year, gave up too many shots and goals, even though they settled down the 2nd half. I think everyone would agree that Pysyk was out of his depth and that Yandle and Ekblad should be split up, so it's pretty disappointing to see no changes. I thought the whole point of bringing in Kiselevich was to try him in the top 4 but it just seems like he was brought in to challenge for a 3rd pairing spot-not that I am particularly enamored with Petrovic or anything but I'd have liked changes to the top 4 .

Cant use Killer when his jaw looks like Terminator.

Although, I don't know that he unseats Piss

 

[Gentle Man]

Vatrano-McCann-Malgin
Brouwer-Mack-Sceviour

McGinn-McCann-Vrbata
Haley-Mack-Sceviour

The third line should be much better and the fourth line could improve if Brouwer plays over Haley. I think both bottom line are improved. Also, Tippett who was unable to keep up won't sink the team for a bunch of games. We have Greco, Mamin, and Lamm that could come up. We also have Ang, Hunt, Borg, Repo, Bajkov playing in the AHL. So we'll see soon enough what upside we have in them.

Also, defensively they won't play McCoshen who was not up to par last season. Hopefully, MacDonald will prove to be better and Stillman and Schemitsch will prove to be great young guys. Melchiori could also be a solid call up seeing how he fared okay during the preseason.

Or if they listen to me, give Trocheck his own line and do a 3rd of

Hubey, McCann, Hoff...

Then it's 3 scoring lines

 

[GrumpyKelly]

That's quite the exaggeration there Shakespeare. And of course not what I am saying. I am emphasizing that this team had major weaknesses last year that led to a short coming down the stretch and early in the season. Those weaknesses are still present regardless of who we added in the top 6 which is irrelevant to the point I made anyways?

They sucked last year early on because of a new coach, new system and new players. At the end of the year they weren't so bad, were they? They didn't have any major weaknesses.

Also what weaknesses (not major) they had were the lack of a top six scorer (fixed), lack of depth in the bottom six (fixed) and while they couldn't get another top 4 D they added depth in Kiselevich plus a wildcard in MacDonald who looks like will make the team.

That's a pretty damn big list of improvements if you ask me.

 

[pb1300]

It sort of bothers me to hear Boughner and especially Tallon keep referring to the second half of last year in regards to this year's team and being able to replicate that to start this year. It was either pre or post game on Wednesday night, but here's what Mike Babcock said regarding this...Babcock: "I think you think there's a big carry over from year-to-year & there's not. I've been in the league a long time & you start over again each & every year. This is a different kind of team with a different set of expectations ..."

If we keep making roster decisions based on last year's second half run and think we're going to get the same results, I think it's a big risk. Hopefully this team realizes that they need to actually work and earn wins and points each and every night from game 1 onward. I also hope there isn't any hesitation to actually sit guys like Mack and Haley if it becomes clear that they are more of a liability than an asset...which honestly, based off of last year, should have been clear, but here we are.

I dont get that impression at all, I actually see the team thinking the way Babcock was talking about. Just listen to what Tro had to say yesterday:

"We had a good second half, but we don't want to come in here thinking it's going to be easy, thinking that we can just build off last year without putting in the work."

They have emphasized enough getting off to a better start than years past, so we shall see if these are the same ol Panthers after the first few weeks.

 

[IceManCat]

They sucked last year early on because of a new coach, new system and new players. At the end of the year they weren't so bad, were they? They didn't have any major weaknesses.

Also what weaknesses (not major) they had were the lack of a top six scorer (fixed), lack of depth in the bottom six (fixed) and while they couldn't get another top 4 D they added depth in Kiselevich plus a wildcard in MacDonald who looks like will make the team.

That's a pretty damn big list of improvements if you ask me.

A lack of a top six scorer was a weakness? News to me we had three players hovering at a point per game pace for most of the season and another not far behind thats 4 out of your top 6 players near a ppg pace. If that's weakness then ????


Lack of depth in the bottom 6 has been annulled by replacing Haley with Brouwer? That has to be a joke right. Have you seen Troy Brouwer play lately the only reason he was signed was because McGinn got hurt no other team in the NHL offered him a contract. Thats a pretty ridiculous statement. The other players Vatrano and Malgin were in and out of the lineup because they lacked the consistency to be a regular in the NHL. This inconsistency is a signal that we have made an improvement and fixed the problem ? How can anyone with a reasonable mind say this.


Kiselvich is a KHL all star defenseman. How many KHL all stars make the NHL and become serviceable. Let alone make the NHL? Again these things are all major question marks that are being treated as solved problems. I hope that they solve the problem but to think that they are solved as of now is ridiculous and frankly terrible reasoning. To call these things improvements is a little fictitious to say the least.

 

[RogerRoger]

Part of the early season problems last season were having; Tippett, Vrbata, McGinn, Haley, Mack, McCoshen, Petrovic all in the lineup for some games and many of them for even more games. Granted we'll have a lot of Haley and Mack again, but otherwise, the improvement on everyone else is significant.

Hoffman is better than Vrbata
Vatrano is better than McGinn
Malgin is better than Tippett
Weegar is better than McCoshen

 

[RogerRoger]

The other players Vatrano and Malgin were in and out of the lineup because they lacked the consistency to be a regular in the NHL. This inconsistency is a signal that we have made an improvement and fixed the problem ? How can anyone with a reasonable mind say this.

Anyone with a reasonable mind knows that Malgin and Vatrano are better than Tippett and McGinn.
The only things them being in and out of the lineup indicate is that Boughner has a stupidly short leash for young players and he'll let veteran hang themselves with a stupendously long leash.
Him playing Haley for pretty much every game should tell you that talent and output is not the only measure by which Boughner choose who's in or out of the lineup.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

A lack of a top six scorer was a weakness? News to me we had three players hovering at a point per game pace for most of the season and another not far behind thats 4 out of your top 6 players near a ppg pace. If that's weakness then ????

Yes, it was a weakness. That second line was a revolving door.

Lack of depth in the bottom 6 has been annulled by replacing Haley with Brouwer? That has to be a joke right. Have you seen Troy Brouwer play lately the only reason he was signed was because McGinn got hurt no other team in the NHL offered him a contract. Thats a pretty ridiculous statement. The other players Vatrano and Malgin were in and out of the lineup because they lacked the consistency to be a regular in the NHL. This inconsistency is a signal that we have made an improvement and fixed the problem ? How can anyone with a reasonable mind say this.

The addition of Vatrano and Borgstrom alone add nhl level depth on that third line. Addition of Hoffman pushes everyone a spot down. That's adding depth too.

Brouwer may not be much but he will add competition. Along guys in the ahl.

If you think Vatrano and Malgin are not nhl level players then I'll just disagree.

Kiselvich is a KHL all star defenseman. How many KHL all stars make the NHL and become serviceable. Let alone make the NHL? Again these things are all major question marks that are being treated as solved problems. I hope that they solve the problem but to think that they are solved as of now is ridiculous and frankly terrible reasoning. To call these things improvements is a little fictitious to say the least.

Again, it's added depth and depth adds competition.

Getting another top 4 D would have been great but didn't happen. Maybe they expect Matheson to take that next step and be a top pairing defenseman.

 

[IceManCat]

Yes, it was a weakness. That second line was a revolving door.


The addition of Vatrano and Borgstrom alone add nhl level depth on that third line. Addition of Hoffman pushes everyone a spot down. That's adding depth too.

Brouwer may not be much but he will add competition. Along guys in the ahl.

If you think Vatrano and Malgin are not nhl level players then I'll just disagree.


Again, it's added depth and depth adds competition.

Getting another top 4 D would have been great but didn't happen. Maybe they expect Matheson to take that next step and be a top pairing defenseman.

Borgtrom is not making the team this is confirmed. Malgin and Vatrano may be NHL players on a weak team. I see no argument that Malgin or Vatrano are better than Jamie Mcginn who is a physical third line veteran player. As a matter of fact neither were able to beat him for a spot last year and would not have this year either. The argument is not whether they are NHL players the argument is whether they are improvements over the previous ones.


I just don't see how adding competition is an argument that we improved? We have competition every year in training camp as a matter of fact its been Tallon's mantra since the start of his tenure here. This has had no correlation in years past with success but for some reason this year it matters. It makes no sense. It's completely unfounded.

 

[IceManCat]

Anyone with a reasonable mind knows that Malgin and Vatrano are better than Tippett and McGinn.
The only things them being in and out of the lineup indicate is that Boughner has a stupidly short leash for young players and he'll let veteran hang themselves with a stupendously long leash.
Him playing Haley for pretty much every game should tell you that talent and output is not the only measure by which Boughner choose who's in or out of the lineup.

Tippet wasn't even on the team last year how in the world can this be used as an example for improvement? And if Malgin and Vatrano were better than McGinn why then did they not beat him for a spot. Again your statements are completely unfounded did you even think about what you posed before doing so?

 

[Jakeybonz]

It’s much easier to be a pessimist than an optimist.

This D group that almost everyone denigrates is the same D group that played some of the best defense in the NHL over the last 35-40 games of last season. Because of that, and since they have the same coaching staff, it’s reasonable to expect a better start than last year.

The offense is improved, the key is to find the right chemistries. There’s no reason to expect them not to improve on PP. There’s no reason to expect them to not play equal or better team defense than last season.

The goalie position is the main question mark, but there too it’s easier to expect failure than take the challenge of achievement.

I know you think you’re being a realist, and hardly anyone else here is, but I think you fail to see that you’re taking the easy way out as a long suffering Panthers fan.

its not hard to be an optimist. go ask anyone on tampa, wpg, wsh, tor, or literally any other good team's forum. if u have a good team, its painfully obvious and u are optimistic about the new seasons results. we have a bad team and thus i as a rational human am not optimistic. ill watch every game, but i dont expect much. the offense isnt really improved as we will not have the injury luck we had last year and one of the top 5 will go down which leaves us worse off its its one of the players better than hoffman.

Our D group did not play all that great in the 2nd hald of last year. it was a statistical anomaly and we were crazy lucky in games where we were outshot and outchanced by a mile. ekblad didnt get faster and hes terrible defensively - like g-d awful for a top pairing d man. matheson is somehow worse but at least he can skate. the rest are bottom pairing guys and somewhat decent at that but thats like having the best 4th line in the nhl with no first liners. u aint going far. Lu had a g-dlike season and thats why the D looked good down the stretch. they were not. we won about 9 games in the second half that were actually blowouts for the other team in a normal world. this roster will not get 96 points. whether they make the playoffs with the 93-94 points they might get is up to fate.

 

[drktmplr12]

To call these things improvements is a little fictitious to say the least.

potential improvements i hear everything you are saying and agree

 

[Gentle Man]

Tippet wasn't even on the team last year how in the world can this be used as an example for improvement? And if Malgin and Vatrano were better than McGinn why then did they not beat him for a spot. Again your statements are completely unfounded did you even think about what you posed before doing so?

Tippett WAS on the team

However...he didnt do enough to stay with the team. But he made it out of camp. That is fact

How can Vatrano beat McGinn for a spot when he didnt become a Panther till February?

Denis Malgin didnt beat either for a spot, but he certainly wrangled one away starting October 24th.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

Borgtrom is not making the team this is confirmed. Malgin and Vatrano may be NHL players on a weak team. I see no argument that Malgin or Vatrano are better than Jamie Mcginn who is a physical third line veteran player. As a matter of fact neither were able to beat him for a spot last year and would not have this year either. The argument is not whether they are NHL players the argument is whether they are improvements over the previous ones.

Disagree, Vatrano and Malgin are nhl players on pretty much any team especially Malgin. Both are also improvements over McGinn imo. Borstrom adds competition and will be called up if someone is underperforming.

I just don't see how adding competition is an argument that we improved? We have competition every year in training camp as a matter of fact its been Tallon's mantra since the start of his tenure here. This has had no correlation in years past with success but for some reason this year it matters. It makes no sense. It's completely unfounded.

No, we don't have competition every year. Last year we had Henrik frickin Haapala starting in the top six. The depth was terrible compared to this year.

 

[letsgrowcactus]

Tippet wasn't even on the team last year how in the world can this be used as an example for improvement? And if Malgin and Vatrano were better than McGinn why then did they not beat him for a spot. Again your statements are completely unfounded did you even think about what you posed before doing so?

Tippet played seven games with very meh results; Hunt played eleven games. If we won just one more of those games... playoffs. Then there was Vrbata, Haley, McCoshen, Brickley, the list goes on and on...
Not sure how Malgin and Vatrano didn't beat McGinn for a spot? Malgin earned the 2RW as the season went on; Vatrano played the second/third line once we acquired him.

The first half of the season last year, we had exactly one working line since Trocheck was playing with the great duo of Vrbata and McGinn. Now we're looking at two great lines, a good third line and a meh but still slightly improved fourth line.

My only real concern is goaltending. If that's at least average, this team absolutely should make the playoffs.

 

[IceManCat]

Tippett WAS on the team

However...he didnt do enough to stay with the team. But he made it out of camp. That is fact

How can Vatrano beat McGinn for a spot when he didnt become a Panther till February?

Denis Malgin didnt beat either for a spot, but he certainly wrangled one away starting October 24th.

After Vatrano was acquired he didnt start every game he was in and out of the line up he was not a regular on the team therefore he didnt beat anyone out including McGinn. Vatrano showed nice scoring ability towards the last few games down the stretch he was pretty invisible otherwise.