Confirmed with Link: Pacioretty Traded to Vegas for Tomas Tatar, Nick Suzuki, 2019 2nd

[PaulD]

I agree: I don’t think the love/hate for subban split along language lines.

But I don’t think you can say this point was raised to further the rift between fan bases either. Sometimes people just say what they believe and don’t mean it to go beyond that - even if it does it was not intended.

The habs have to deal with political BS when it comes to staff and player personnel. This is reality and no other team has to deal with anything like it and it puts them at a handicap no doubt. No point in bringing it up over and over.

True, currently it is only one of the many reasons they are a dysfunctional mess.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

What you just said, was false. It was not true, and used to further the rift between the francophone and anglophone fanbases. That was the point of your post, there wasn't another.

Why would you think doing that is a valuable or good idea? It's just very tiresome and frankly a bit shameful.

There are just as many idiotic, irrational fans on one side of the linguistic spectrum as the other.

It's reality. And I disagree. I've heard as many French people **** on DD and Drouin as English people.

But with players like Subban, or any other foreign player, english or other, the French are always a majority when it comes to *****ing on the players. Just think of Saku. Same story as with Subban. Unilingual French Quebecers, especially outside the GMA, have a racial and exacerbated nationalistic bent that you won't see from English folks, at least far from the same level of zeal.

Wanna ***** about something, do it to them. They're the ones giving a bad rap to French-Quebecers.

 

[26Mats]

But who says Eller wouldn't have taken a different path if he didn't have the grindosaur as HC?

I always liked Eller off the ice and for his commitment to the team. But his tunnel vision imo is why I could never love him as a core offensive player. I respected him and liked him as a role player. But sometimes, despite all his athletic attributes, hockey skills, and character, he had his head down with the puck and would just not see plays developing. He would pass when he should have shot, shoot when he should have passed, delay the play when it was time to seize the moment, push forward when he should have had more patience, etc... I prefer Galchenyuk 10 times more than Eller and believe Galchenyuk has a much higher ceiling that wasn't tapped into while he was here.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I always liked Eller off the ice and for his commitment to the team. But his tunnel vision imo is why I could never love him as a core offensive player. I respected him and liked him as a role player. But sometimes, despite all his athletic attributes, hockey skills, and character, he had his head down with the puck and would just not see plays developing. He would pass when he should have shot, shoot when he should have passed, delay the play when it was time to seize the moment, push forward when he should have had more patience, etc... I prefer Galchenyuk 10 times more than Eller and believe Galchenyuk has a much higher ceiling that wasn't tapped into while he was here.

I agree, but I still believe his ceiling was a bit higher. Also, Suzuki is an entirely different player. His hockey IQ seems higher, although less of a physical specimen.

 

[Laurentide]

Facepalm all you want, this is 100% contingent on Suzuki, whom I am guessing you know approximately nothing about. Tatar is not worth much of anything and a 2nd might become something, although chances are higher it doesn't.
Would have preferred a different direction.

Suzuki was a 1st round pick just last season. A first round pick this coming season at the #13 slot would be just as much of a crapshoot. Whenever you trade the present for the future you are banking on the future panning out. Max is nearing 30 years old and could well be in a decline that ensures he never sees the 30 goal plateau ever again. That is just as likely to happen as Suzuki becoming a bust is. Nothing is a lead pipe cinch for either team in this deal. Vegas is hoping that Max returns to his old form and the Habs are hoping that Tatar rebounds and that Suzuki becomes a big piece of their future. A different direction would mean trading Max for a known quantity (in other words, trading Max for another version of Max) trading the present for the present doesn't move the needle. This team could trade for McJebus right now and they still aren't making the playoffs. So trading Max for an established player like himself is a pointless exercise. The Habs need to get younger each and every time they trade a veteran because the future is all that matters. The present is going to suck regardless.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Yeah, it's easy to just eliminate Petry from the equation. That's actually close to 150 points, Subban, Markov and Petry. It's also quite a joke to compare Subban's rookie and sophomore seasons to Shea Theodore's 3rd season. In Subban's 3rd season, he was almost PPG. Theodore won't be a Subban, it's not even comparable.

What you also dismiss is that Vegas's D corps was systemized. They got points rolling with the systems. Subban and Markov CREATED the offense. It's far from the same thing. You just look at stats, cherry picking 3 Ds, comparing them to two Ds.

Just quit it already. We were talking of the better linemates Pac and Tatar had, and Tatar NEVER had talented players on the backend feeding him like Pac had, which should equate Pac never having better forwards compared to Tatar.


And you're really outside the conversation if you're talking about who we are fielding NOW, it's beside the point.

Shea Theodore isnt late in his progression. He had been buried on a stacked prospect pool in Anaheim and behind established guys like Fowler. Subban accelerated his development because Markov was MIA for multiple seasons and he was our only top D prospect. Subban, if circumstances were similar to Theodore, would have had a slower track. Theodore is only 22. Subban at 22 still only had 36 points in 81 games. Theodore had 29 pts in 61 games. Theodore is also capable of those Hail Mary passes Subban used.



Dmen don't produce more because of system. Making good point shots and outlet passes are something that is immaterial to systems, which tells players where to be on the ice. Dmen will always be in the back, needing to make passes to get things done. Some might pinch more depending on system, but no system can compensate processing the game. Especially when there is cannibalizing amongst themselves since there's not enough icetime to spread to all three of them.

I meant collectively.

Petry finally hit 40 because he was the only guy left. But he always had more flash than substance. Plays die because he doesn't process the game fast enough. One aberration doesn't compensate for years of mediocrity on offense.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

Great trade. Well done.

 

[Tyson]

If Bergevin says and of course he has too that mtl Will make the playoffs then which teams aren't making it.
Ex... Here are teams that imo are in
TB
Wash
Pitt
Bos
Tor
NJ
Philly
Col
Fla
There's teams I put 1 additional
But no MTL.

Anything is possible with a focused and healthy Price

 

[Shabs]

I always liked Eller off the ice and for his commitment to the team. But his tunnel vision imo is why I could never love him as a core offensive player. I respected him and liked him as a role player. But sometimes, despite all his athletic attributes, hockey skills, and character, he had his head down with the puck and would just not see plays developing. He would pass when he should have shot, shoot when he should have passed, delay the play when it was time to seize the moment, push forward when he should have had more patience, etc... I prefer Galchenyuk 10 times more than Eller and believe Galchenyuk has a much higher ceiling that wasn't tapped into while he was here.

Lars Eller here. Call me when galchenyuk scores a SCWG (x10)

 

[jackeymoon]

Suzuki is a high skilled player with speed issues who won't ever have the same impact Patch had. He'll be a good Top 6 or 9 player but funny enough him playing C has been up for debate by Vegas coaching and management. Seems they were going to use him as a winger and if he stays a C his ceiling, by all accounts, is a 2nd line C.

Everyone applauding Bergevin remember the context; the man devalued his asset for over a year, tried trading him (making it public pretty much since last december) and only gets a Good not Great prospect, a cap dump and a 2nd. You all think it's looking alright because of all the UNNECESSARY poopslinging coming from the Habs organization for the last 4 months in particular. Can't believe this team is nearly as much of a shitshow as the Sens.

Comparables:

E.Kane only got a guaranteed 2nd which became a 1st after signing (which was apparently a key part of Pacioretty being traded to Vegas) but E.Kane was traded at the deadline of his UFA year, had real team issues and was never even close to being as consistent as Patch. Not to mention the bumbling idiot Bergevin COULD'VE GOTTEN A FIRST LAST YEAR.

Skinner: Serious concussion issues and once again, not even close to being as consistent as Max. There's no comparison IMO.

 

[De Montreal]

Suzuki is a high skilled player with speed issues who won't ever have the same impact Patch had. He'll be a good Top 6 or 9 player but funny enough him playing C has been up for debate by Vegas coaching and management. Seems they were going to use him as a winger and if he stays a C his ceiling, by all accounts, is a 2nd line C.

Everyone applauding Bergevin remember the context; the man devalued his asset for over a year, tried trading him (making it public pretty much since last december) and only gets a Good not Great prospect, a cap dump and a 2nd. You all think it's looking alright because of all the UNNECESSARY poopslinging coming from the Habs organization for the last 4 months in particular. Can't believe this team is nearly as much of a ****show as the Sens.

Comparables:

E.Kane only got a guaranteed 2nd which became a 1st after signing (which was apparently a key part of Pacioretty being traded to Vegas) but E.Kane was traded at the deadline of his UFA year, had real team issues and was never even close to being as consistent as Patch. Not to mention the bumbling idiot Bergevin COULD'VE GOTTEN A FIRST LAST YEAR.

Skinner: Serious concussion issues and once again, not even close to being as consistent as Max. There's no comparison IMO.

and maybe if we got a 1st we could have a drafted a good prospect someone like Nick Suzuki

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Yeah, it's easy to just eliminate Petry from the equation. That's actually close to 150 points, Subban, Markov and Petry. It's also quite a joke to compare Subban's rookie and sophomore seasons to Shea Theodore's 3rd season. In Subban's 3rd season, he was almost PPG. Theodore won't be a Subban, it's not even comparable.

What you also dismiss is that Vegas's D corps was systemized. They got points rolling with the systems. Subban and Markov CREATED the offense. It's far from the same thing. You just look at stats, cherry picking 3 Ds, comparing them to two Ds.

Just quit it already. We were talking of the better linemates Pac and Tatar had, and Tatar NEVER had talented players on the backend feeding him like Pac had, which should equate Pac never having better forwards compared to Tatar.


And you're really outside the conversation if you're talking about who we are fielding NOW, it's beside the point.

Also, MaxPac' first 30 goal season came with Markov MIA and Subban being that 36 point 22 year old. Pac broke out before Subban became the Norris winner. In fact, had Chara not taken Pac out, Pac already arrived in the 2010-2011 season.

 

[ChikN]

Damn that kid looks good. Hyped for Suzuki.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Wow that's a great trade, good job by Marc.

 

[le_sean]

Lars Eller here. Call me when galchenyuk scores a SCWG (x10)

People put way too much emphasis on a Cup winning goal. You’re making it seem like he scored in 3OT in Game 7. He scored just passed halfway through the 3rd in Game 5. I mean good for him, but you should point to his Game 2 performance before anything else.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Shea Theodore isnt late in his progression. He had been buried on a stacked prospect pool in Anaheim and behind established guys like Fowler. Subban accelerated his development because Markov was MIA for multiple seasons and he was our only top D prospect. Subban, if circumstances were similar to Theodore, would have had a slower track. Theodore is only 22. Subban at 22 still only had 36 points in 81 games. Theodore had 29 pts in 61 games. Theodore is also capable of those Hail Mary passes Subban used.

Theodore is good but will never reach Subban's level. AND the point is that Pacioretty got contribution from NORRIS SUBBAN, not sophomore or rookie Subban (except for the sophomore season, where he had Hamr AND Cole). You use very weak points of comparison that have nothing to do with what happened last season, and what happened with Mac between 2012 and 2018.

And I'll repeat for this to be clear. YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT VEGAS's TOP THREE IS IRRELEVANT as TATAR WAS RECEIVING CONTRIBUTION FROM THE 2nd AND MOSTLY 3rd PAIRING. POINT FINAL. Your comparison is ****.

Dmen don't produce more because of system.

Yes, they do. Please stop replying to me if you're denying this, especially with Vegas which was one of the most highly systemized teams I have ever seen.

Making good point shots and outlet passes are something that is immaterial to systems, which tells players where to be on the ice.

Completely ridiculous. Weaker players will often produce better in a systemized system, because their passes or shots are not just out of the blue. Systemized approach relegates creativity, for a process of pre-established choices.

Dmen will always be in the back, needing to make passes to get things done. Some might pinch more depending on system, but no system can compensate processing the game. Especially when there is cannibalizing amongst themselves since there's not enough icetime to spread to all three of them.

I meant collectively.

I doesn't matter ONE IOTA. BECAUSE TATAR ISNT MARCHESSAULT OR NEAL. TATAR PLAYED 3rd LINE MINUTES.

Petry finally hit 40 because he was the only guy left. But he always had more flash than substance. Plays die because he doesn't process the game fast enough. One aberration doesn't compensate for years of mediocrity on offense.

?????? Man, I'm talking about Petry getting 30 points per when Markov and Subban were here. You took Vegas 3 dmen to compare with 2 DMEN? There's something that doesn't seem to compute in your brain.

You give me Vegas's top 3 with 107 points

You compare that to Markov and Subban's 110 points

Don't you see the fallacy here????

You're wrong and instead of y'know, being mature and say, well, right, If I add Petry, who was always close to 30 points, which isn't far off from what the 4 top players on Vegas's D squad got, and incidently, puts Montreal's top 3, the ones feeding Pac, at 150 points compared to Vegas's 107 points.

And ADD to the fact that Tatar was not the recipient of the performance of Vegas's top 3.

Nope, instead you go into reason to not include Petry. That's what would call bias and cherry picking.

Please don't reply. You're completely irrational.

And I'll state one last time: TATAR PLAYED 3RD LINE MINUTES AND GOT LITTLE CONTRIBUTION FROM THE 3 PLAYERS YOU COMPARED.

 

[Doc McKenna]

All I can say is, this is the best we could get at this point. Max had way more value last year. I will wait at least one season before saying we did amazing. We got a good return on a guy that we would not have signed with high value. That is the reality. If we had traded Shaw phoeling and a 2nd for pasternak or laine I don't think we would be thinking we paid much. His Ufa status and us not wanting him, plus everyone knowing we have no scoring since we got rid of all our talents means this is the best we could do. It is OK but not the return he could have got at any point last year.

 

[Redux91]

With the salary retentions:

Tatar: $4.8M cap hit with Vegas retaining 3 years of $500K.

Pacioretty: $4.05M with Montreal retaining 1 year of $450K.

For one year, Habs take on a cap hit of $750K. And when Max's next contract kicks in, Habs will save a lot more in a cap hit.

Im bewildered more people cant understand this?

people are seriously worried about tatars salary it freaks me out, i cant wait to see what max signs for 7.5 - 8 mill EASY, and were screwed for the next 8 years

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Also, MaxPac' first 30 goal season came with Markov MIA and Subban being that 36 point 22 year old. Pac broke out before Subban became the Norris winner. In fact, had Chara not taken Pac out, Pac already arrived in the 2010-2011 season.

With Cole playing besides him. And that's the only season.

He already had Subban feeding him.

And it's pointless as Tatar played 3rd line minutes. Quit it already.

 

[groovejuice]

Lars Eller here. Call me when galchenyuk scores a SCWG (x10)

Let me know when Galchenyuk is playing for a team that can even dream about a Cup.

 

[Redux91]

I dont get the hangovcr with Tatar's contract.

Honestly the way some people are talking you would think Tatar was making 7 million f***ing dollars.

everyone whining about Tatars salary is cracking me up wow

 

[Shabs]

People put way too much emphasis on a Cup winning goal. You’re making it seem like he scored in 3OT in Game 7. He scored just passed halfway through the 3rd in Game 5. I mean good for him, but you should point to his Game 2 performance before anything else.

I don’t point to his game 2 performance because I’m a “glass half-full” kind of guy. I like to point out that overall, eller was a PLAYOFF BEAST!!!

 

[Treb]

The language discussion is over.

 

[Pacciosoftie]

So we traded Subban and named max as captain only to trade him a few years later. What a mess this is. We all knew it was a huge mistake not naming Subban captain. And trading Pacioretty instead.

 

[Uncle Gary]

With Tatar being part of the return, we still have a huge glut of wingers. Drouin, Gallagher, Domi, Tatar, Byron, Hudon, Lehks, Shaw, Armia, Scherbak and Deslauriers are all wingers. Drouin may be forced back over to center but that is still way too many wingers. I think it is critical that Hudon, Lehks and Scherbak all get consistent playing time. Who ends up sitting?