P.K. Subban Thread - 5.0 - The "Doughty Money Vs. Lowball Bridge" Edition

[Marc the Habs Fan]

I'm pretty sure it was PK for the 1st overall, not adding our 3rd. We would have picked at #1 and #3

Not accurate.
McGuire (and I can't believe I'm defending him...) said that if he was on the other end, he'd CALL the Habs to see if they'd be interested to do that deal.

Big difference.

None of the videos on TSN.ca from the draft work, so I went to our own draft thread discussing it:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1208873&highlight=mcguire+subban&page=36

Clear cut proof McGuire was saying it's a move we should consider.

 

[malton]

Assault versus... what, exactly?

 

[Lshap]

You do not handcuff your team by giving your best players fair contracts, you handcuff your team by signing players who aren't particularly good at playing hockey to above market value, like prust, gomez, gionta, cammy, spacek ect. Now I'd have np with a gionta type deal if other pieces were in place but when we made all these garbage signings/trades in one off-season it was plain to see that Bob got desperate and made many stupid moves.

Absofrigginlutely right. As much as anyone, PK has shown he's one of our best players. There he is, a precise example of who we want to build around, and we can lock him up for the foreseeable future with a contract that will end up saving us money in the long run. Overpaying slightly now will be more economical than being forced to vastly overpay in two years.

Does it set a precedent? Yes. It shows the Habs value talent and will pay accordingly.

 

[Frozenice]

Not accurate.
McGuire (and I can't believe I'm defending him...) said that if he was on the other end, he'd CALL the Habs to see if they'd be interested to do that deal.

Big difference.

The other guys at TSN were stunned when he said that because they know the difference between being reasonable and being Pejorative Slured and McGuire crossed that line.

 

[capnk]

None of the videos on TSN.ca from the draft work, so I went to our own draft thread discussing it:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1208873&highlight=mcguire+subban&page=36

Clear cut proof McGuire was saying it's a move we should consider.

Huh? He said that if he was EDM, he'd contact Montreal to see if they'd do it. It doesn't mean that he said Montreal SHOULD do it. Am I missing something?

From the thread you copied:
Pierre McGuire just stated on TSN that if he was Edmonton, he'd call up Marc Bergevin and offer the 1st overall pick for PK Subban and the 3rd overall pick.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Huh? He said that if he was EDM, he'd contact Montreal to see if they'd do it. It doesn't mean that he said Montreal SHOULD do it. Am I missing something?

From the thread you copied:
Pierre McGuire just stated on TSN that if he was Edmonton, he'd call up Marc Bergevin and offer the 1st overall pick for PK Subban and the 3rd overall pick.

Post 879 on down.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51106327&postcount=879

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51107015&postcount=890

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51107455&postcount=896

 

[DAChampion]

Pierre McGuire didn't want to see Galchenyuk in a Habs jersey.

He also said that we should offer the pick to Pittsburgh for Jordan Staal.

 

[Le Tricolore]

Assault versus... what, exactly?

Not doing things the white way.

 

[Jigger77]

Patrick Kane off elc = 5yrs @ 6.3aav
Jonathan Toews off elc = 5yrs @ 6.3 aav


But Toews is a thoroughbred, he's the captain and he has a great attitude.

Kane only punched that one cabby. His off ice issues are nowhere near those of PK's.


You build a contender in the long term by locking up your young players.

You don't build a winner by low-balling (if that's the case) your talent at the first opportunity.

i don't think PK should be asking for 6.3 aav over 5 years however anything between the 4 and 5.5 range is reasonable.

I agree with your numbers, but closer to 4 than 5.5 imo. I think where the disconnect is is how good PK actually is. To me he's just not in the same league as Kane and Toews. Those two guys got 28 and 29 points in 22 games respectively in their second year in the league (or maybe 3rd) in the playoffs on a Cup winning team. They're exceptional, generational players. That's just my take anyway, I just don't think they are really comparable. Besides it's hard to compare defensemen with forwards. 2.75 if accurate does seem rather low though that's for sure. I just don't think he's earned that huge long-term lucrative deal just quite yet. There's a few things I'd like to see polished in his game first, and then if he does yeah for sure. But anyway, it's hard to argue any of this when nobody actually knows the facts surrounding negotiations.

 

[Sterling Archer]

So let me get this straight.
One of the tasks of a GM is to sign his players, and put forth the best team possible.
Now, if we believe Bobby Mac's words, he is low balling our best young Dman (and possibly player).
In other words, he's trying to screw our most promising young player and failed to sign him, and you blame the player??? Sure, that makes a ton of sense.

You realize that Bergevin's other task is to have vision and properly evaluate his players, so he can figure out what is best for the club in the long term.
We have very little to base ourselves on in order to judge Bergevin regarding this.
MaxPac was given a pretty good deal despite having only one full NHL season under him.
Price got a huge extension that is making him the 3rd best paid goalie in the NHL. Not sure he deserved that, but long term wise, I can agree.
Now, PK, after two full years of good hockey, and good PO performances as well, gets a short term deal. To me, this shows a lack of vision.
The fact that Bergevin is offering PK pretty much half of what he gave to Prust, makes me doubt his evaluation skills.

You're absolutely right, it's not up to Bergevin to cave into demands. Well, so long that those demands were unreasonable.
And this is where we differ, you decided to believe those demands were unreasonable, and that's why he needs to stand firm.
But from what is coming out lately, it seems to be the other way around.
Yet, you're sticking with what you said. Doesn't make sense.

We're really going to go far with a bunch of bottom six and top 4 Dman (Gally aside).
Meanwhile, the most important player is sitting at home because you're too proud to give him a decent deal.



I'm not going to waste more time explaining how Price, MaxPac, Gorges, etc were nowhere near where PK was at the end of their ELC.
If you haven't understood that by now, you'll never will.

So you think 4M for 6years is too much? You think 2years at 2.75M is fair??? (which is more fair for a top pairing Dman, you tell me.)
You realize that those are the numbers being thrown around right now? That the rumors about PK wanting Doughty cash are gone, and gone.
Just to put things into perspective, Prust is making 2.5M for 4years.

Where to begin...

Firstly, you're assuming you know what the numbers are when in fact you don't. I can easily choose to believe very respected Darren Dreger and say PK is crazy to think he wants $7M+ per year. I haven't done that or put any dollar amounts what so ever as I'm not privy to these negociations.

What I will say is that in a negociation, it is not uncommon for one side to make a drastic demand and the other side making an equally drastic counter in the opposite direction. Point in case, when the NHL made the 43% HRR offer, many people were upset over it. In fact, they NHL wanted a 50% split but gave that low ball offer to balance of the equation. That being said, let's assume PK is worth around $5M (which I think is the range he is worth, given simliar comparables) if Don Meehan starts off asking for $7M+ and Bergy counters with $5M, than there's nowhere for him to go but up with his next offer. If he however starts at $3M, well than there's a happy medium in the middle to work with. So if you're negociating and you start with your best offer, guess what? You will end up OVERPAYING!

So please, take all the numbers you've heard of so far with a big grain of salt as they're in the posturing phase right now. PK will not sign for $7M just like he won't sign for $3M. He'll likely land somewhere in the middle.

Next point... PK has played well. In fact very well for the 2 years he's been in the league. That being said, Price played really well as well, especially his first year. Price also plays a much more important position for the team than PK does, or any other player for that matter. Patches also had a banner year and was rewarded with a great contract for that 35 goal campaign. Gorges by all rights should have got his contract sooner and would have signed for less if he had signed sooner. As good as PK was, he was not perfect and he was not as good as Markov was when he got his first big $5.75M contract. He didn't have as many points, didn't play as consistantly and didn't play as well defensively as Markov did before his first big pay day. Add to that a lower salary cap and less cap room in the future and you have some reason as why Bergy shouldn't break the bank on PK out of his ELC. Also, add the fact that PK hasn't proven himself with a full consistant season of play yet and it sets a horrible example to the players coming up that if they stand up the Bergevin, he'll succum to the pressure and yield to your demands. If they think they're good enoug or important enough, they won't have to prove themselves. Let's also not forget that this situation is a cap buster. The point of having younger, unestablished players is that they're cheap! If you start handing out veteran contracts to players our of the ELC than you're going to run out of cap space very quickly as the more established players who have proven themselves will want more than the younger players, and rightly so. So if Bergevin does crumble, why wouldn't an agent who makes a liiving doing this not think he'll do it again when the next ELC player comes to bat and try to take advantage of Bergy again?

It's not a simple question of Bergevin trying to "rip off" PK. You seem to be looking at this from a very simplistic viewpoint when there's a lot more going on than meets the eye. A GM's job is certainly to try to field the best team but that's not limited to THIS year. If yielding to Meehan's demands means it will handcuff him and errode negociating capabilities in the future than it may not be worth it to sign PK right now. You seem to be seeing this as a simple "sign PK" and don't understand the business and long term strategic planning it takes to run a multi million dollar enterprise.

As for the bring up the young guys. I said that if we're out of the playoffs, THAN we should bring up the kids as the season will be a wash and we'll have to retool/rebuild the entire team in the vision of the new management. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Blind Gardien]

Kane and Toews and a lot of players are anachronisms. The target is always moving. Let's hope we'll be able to say that one day about Subban when we've got him on a long-term deal.

 

[capnk]

Post 879 on down.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51106327&postcount=879

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51107015&postcount=890

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51107455&postcount=896

So the fact that when questioned he said that Edm would have to offer something else and the deal could probably get done... means that he said Montreal should trade PK to Edmonton for the picks?

 

[HomaridII]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/21560/rumblings-will-stars-benn-be-first-to-re-sign

 

[Sterling Archer]

So the fact that when questioned he said that Edm would have to offer something else and the deal could probably get done... means that he said Montreal should trade PK to Edmonton for the picks?

I think any GM who doesn't give consideration to a trade that could improve his team, probably shouldn't be a GM.

If trading PK lands you a first overall and you keep your 3rd or trade that for another player on Edmonton i.e. Hall, Nug Schultz, etc. than that's something I think most GM's would consider. It never happened, so why are people making a big deal out of this??

 

[Habtchum*]

I think any GM who doesn't give consideration to a trade that could improve his team, probably shouldn't be a GM.

If trading PK lands you a first overall and you keep your 3rd or trade that for another player on Edmonton i.e. Hall, Nug Schultz, etc. than that's something I think most GM's would consider. It never happened, so why are people making a big deal out of this??

Taylor Hall for Subban ? Anytime !

 

[cjbhab*]

Statistically speaking they aren't even close. They're roughly the same age, that's about it.

Read the article I posted on the front page, it will explain it quite thoroughly. It does a great job at crushing empty rhetoric IMO.

Kulikov 2011-12
4 g 24 a 28 pts
.48 points per game


Subban 2011-12

7 g 29 a 36 pts
.44 points per game


looks pretty similar to me and the +/- isn't a big enough difference that it is worth discussing.

Let's also throw Del Zotto into the equation:

10 g 31 a 41 pts
0.53 Points per game


forget what I said before about 2.75 being a lowball.. 2.75 is generous. take your money and run PK.

forget about marketability.. the Canadiens don't need PK subban to market their club.. let's be real. They are the MTL ****in Canadiens.

 

[Blind Gardien]

I think any GM who doesn't give consideration to a trade that could improve his team, probably shouldn't be a GM.

If trading PK lands you a first overall and you keep your 3rd or trade that for another player on Edmonton i.e. Hall, Nug Schultz, etc. than that's something I think most GM's would consider. It never happened, so why are people making a big deal out of this??

MacKinnon *and* Drouin FTW. But it's so impossible at this point in time to know how things would unfold. Subban is at least a relatively known commodity.

 

[DAChampion]

Kulikov 2011-12
4 g 24 a 28 pts
.48 points per game


Subban 2011-12

7 g 29 a 36 pts
.44 points per game


looks pretty similar to me and the +/- isn't a big enough difference that it is worth discussing.

Let's also throw Del Zotto into the equation:

10 g 31 a 41 pts
0.53 Points per game

The issue is that Subban is better defensively than he is offensively.

 

[Miller Time]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/21560/rumblings-will-stars-benn-be-first-to-re-sign

"habs aren't sure of what they have in subban just yet"...


if the 2 year sticking point is true, I would love to know what is going on in MB's head.

Was is it that he (and therrien?) see that so many of us don't?

Every possible indication is that Subban is an improving young talent, who has consistently played well in high pressure situations (WJC, playoffs as a rookie, AHL on a strong team playing leading role... as a rookie pro).

That he has an impeccable work ethic, and despite the flair in his attitude, is 100% committed to his craft and despite the media exaggerations about "behavior" issues, shows a maturity well beyond his age off the ice (his on-ice lack of maturity is, imo, overblown, and heck, pales in comparison to guys like Crosby or Giroux, who whine/complain regularly, without the nearly the media backlash).


Either MB/MT are smarter than everyone else, or they are remarkably ignorant of what a star player in the making looks like...

you'd think that MB, with his experience around Kane (whose off-ice maturity is unquestionably worse than Subban), would get that on-ice performance is what matters most... the stats (as well as visual observations) are pretty clear... Subban is one of the top-young dmen in the game.

you don't have stand-offs over 2-year contracts with those types of players, makes no sense at all.

 

[sheed36]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/21560/rumblings-will-stars-benn-be-first-to-re-sign

So in other words absolutely nothing is happening with PK and the Habs on getting a deal done.

 

[cjbhab*]

The issue is that Subban is better defensively than he is offensively.

Slightly okay and that warrants what 3.5 more million dollars.. forget about it.

 

[malton]

Kulikov 2011-12
4 g 24 a 28 pts
.48 points per game


Subban 2011-12

7 g 29 a 36 pts
.44 points per game


looks pretty similar to me and the +/- isn't a big enough difference that it is worth discussing.

Let's also throw Del Zotto into the equation:

10 g 31 a 41 pts
0.53 Points per game

And PK is a much better defensive player. He plays in all situations.

Kulikov and Del Zotto are terrible comparisons.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Hopefully we keep losing.

 

[cjbhab*]

And PK is a much better defensive player. He plays in all situations.

Kulikov and Del Zotto are terrible comparisons.

Kulikov and Subban are most certainly comparable. Offensively they are very similar and the defense part is subjective. I will agree Del Zotto isn't very good defensively. Kulikov is FLA's best defensive guy IMO.. see for yourself tonight.

I think the hype machine is getting to some of your heads.

 

[Sterling Archer]

MacKinnon *and* Drouin FTW. But it's so impossible at this point in time to know how things would unfold. Subban is at least a relatively known commodity.

At this point we might be able to get them both! Seriously though, you're right. No one knows so you have to be open and sometimes be creative. Creative GM's who can make things work seem to be the better ones out there. The ones who aren't tend to get fired after fielding below average teams.