P.K Subban Thread 2.0

[Capitano]

Why does one have to be right or wrong? They're both doing what's allowed to them under the CBA...nothing illegal or even immorale going on here (not that the latter would even matter mind you)

In my opinion I would like PK to accept a 2 year deal so he can be onside with the rest of the team. He says he wants to sign long term but that's only half of the story - he wants to sign long term for large cash - on one hand you can call that what he is entitled to, on the other hand you can call that greed.

Whereas in the habs position they will spend to the cap or close to it...so how can you call it greed if they simply wish to spend their money and distribute it in an equal way?

 

[417]

In case you didn't know the cap is going to drop and Bergevin kinda has to be careful about who he signs to long term deals. It is actually for the betterment of the club and safety of the future. Anyways he disagrees with you, I think he knows a bit more about PK than you do. If Bergevin and management don't think it is a good deal there is probably a good reason why.

Agreed...but that's not really Meehan or Subban's concern. They're not there to do MB's job.

 

[Capitano]

Agreed...but that's not really Meehan or Subban's concern. They're not there to do MB's job.

Which is why I'm 100% in MB's corner. He's just managing a budget, that's it. And PK's agent is trying to get as much as he can. Again, he is only 'entitled' to what the GM offers him, not what some on hfboards think he should be offered.

You can use comparables if you want, that might help start things along...but in the end as an RFA he has little leverage as I have said many times.

Players don't care much anymore...it even came out of PK's mouth a few times during the lockout...it's a business. Once they become UFAs it is very likely they will leave for the highest bidder. That is their only leverage.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

In my opinion I would like PK to accept a 2 year deal so he can be onside with the rest of the team. He says he wants to sign long term but that's only half of the story - he wants to sign long term for large cash - on one hand you can call that what he is entitled to, on the other hand you can call that greed.

Whereas in the habs position they will spend to the cap or close to it...so how can you call it greed if they simply wish to spend their money and distribute it in an equal way?

Woah woah woah.

Stop there.

1- you just made one muther****ing leap of logic by ASSUMING he wants large bundle of money. How would you know?

2- Using that assumption you pulled out of your ass, you decide to criticize his character and call him greedy?

Get out of here. Have actually hard fact to discuss mate.

 

[417]

In my opinion I would like PK to accept a 2 year deal so he can be onside with the rest of the team. He says he wants to sign long term but that's only half of the story - he wants to sign long term for large cash - on one hand you can call that what he is entitled to, on the other hand you can call that greed.Whereas in the habs position they will spend to the cap or close to it...so how can you call it greed if they simply wish to spend their money and distribute it in an equal way?

Maybe...but you could also say the Habs are being greedy by trying to lock up their best and most used defensman to a bargain deal.

How is that fair to Subban? Again...let's just say he signs this 'bridge deal' everyone wants him to sign at let's say 2yrs 3.5M per.

So he'll be making 3.5M per year, less than Markov, Gorges, Kaberle...yet he's going to play more than those 3, play more difficult minutes than those 3 and accumulate way more wear & tear than those 3.

Is that really fair?

Again...neither side is wrong in their stance, they just need to find a common ground that suits both parties.

If none of us can come to an agreement on PK's actual value...imagine how difficult it must be for those actually invested in these negotiations.

It's not nearly as cut & dry as we're making it out to be here...

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

Which is why I'm 100% in MB's corner. He's just managing a budget, that's it. And PK's agent is trying to get as much as he can. Again, he is only 'entitled' to what the GM offers him, not what some on hfboards think he should be offered.

So sign him to a cap hit of 4 million for the next 2 years and then 7 for the next 4 years?

With my logic a 6 year deal could be win win for both parties. A cap hit of 5.75 might be a little high this year, but think about in 3 years if Subban develops into the player we all think he will become. 5.75 for a Norris Candidate who thrives to get better is a steal.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

Which is why I'm 100% in MB's corner. He's just managing a budget, that's it. And PK's agent is trying to get as much as he can. Again, he is only 'entitled' to what the GM offers him, not what some on hfboards think he should be offered.

You can use comparables if you want, that might help start things along...but in the end as an RFA he has little leverage as I have said many times.

Nobody is entitled to anything. You get what you negociate.


Stop using words to twist the meaning of facts. Subban may think he deserves long-term, and that he has what it takes to negotiate it. That doesn't mean he believes he is "entitled" to such money.

 

[Habtchum*]

Which is why I'm 100% in MB's corner. He's just managing a budget, that's it. And PK's agent is trying to get as much as he can. Again, he is only 'entitled' to what the GM offers him, not what some on hfboards think he should be offered.

You can use comparables if you want, that might help start things along...but in the end as an RFA he has little leverage as I have said many times.

Absolutely.

PK must kick himself in the rear right now being at home while his team is training and playing soon. Espêcially after having lost almost 5 months of action + the Summer.

 

[Capitano]

Woah woah woah.

Stop there.

1- you just made one muther****ing leap of logic by ASSUMING he wants large bundle of money. How would you know?

2- Using that assumption you pulled out of your ass, you decide to criticize his character and call him greedy?

Get out of here. Have actually hard fact to discuss mate.

haha, the only assumption i'm making is that the habs have offered him a deal already and he should accept it if he wants to play hockey.

Have the habs made an offer?

If yes then he refused it right?

If he refused it then what does that mean?

Yes, we don't know the numbers, but my logic fits with any number.

 

[habs03]

First of all...you're unnecessarily getting vitriolic within our own board. Try to avoid that, I'm not into name calling and youtube-worthy comments.

You are correct about both your Patches and Price contracts in their situation and number of contracts.

The point here is that PK is at a point where his second contract (as you stated) could be worth more than Price's or Patches' were (you saw the figures I floated, right?). I'm fine with HIS bridge contract being more like a 3rd contract in terms of actual money, although you are still giving PK a little too much credit in terms of proving himself. I think he's a boss, but you need to put in a little more time to deserve what he's allegedly asking. The issue here is that the Habs are willing to make this "bridge" contract worth more (but not exorbitant), but for a longer term (to ensure it goes past his UFA situation) OR to pay him more than Patches and Price got (again, due to your reasoning), but shorter to allow for a re-evaluation while he's still an RFA (at which point he could certainly demand more money, just like he's doing now and would get it if all things stay the same).

edit: just to clarify - it seems like you're actually suggesting that IF he signs a bridge contract (unclear if that's what you are calling for), he should get wayyy less that I'm proposing. Price and Patches signed long-term to decently plump sums, which I'm fine with. PK has proven himself worthy of a similar contract. I'm not debating that. I'm saying he can't ask for a middle ground price for 4 years or a bigger contract than Patches long term. Same contract, fine.

This for me

Give him 2-3 years at 5-6M.

From the things that Bergevin and MT have said, they both think that Subban still has some developing to do. Bergevin stated that last year he didn't get a chance to take a deep look at the Habs team, so maybe he didn't get to see how important Subban is the team. Another thing is Subban sometimes get misunderstood as not being the best teammate from an outside view, and this whole time, IMO hasn't gotten a chance to see how Subban is on the team, I'm not just saying how I see things, and what worries me the most, is that the more this goes on, the more likely it is that the Habs start to atleast listen to offers for him. Just my .02$

 

[Capitano]

Maybe...but you could also say the Habs are being greedy by trying to lock up their best and most used defensman to a bargain deal.

How is that fair to Subban? Again...let's just say he signs this 'bridge deal' everyone wants him to sign at let's say 2yrs 3.5M per.

So he'll be making 3.5M per year, less than Markov, Gorges, Kaberle...yet he's going to play more than those 3, play more difficult minutes than those 3 and accumulate way more wear & tear than those 3.

Is that really fair?

Again...neither side is wrong in their stance, they just need to find a common ground that suits both parties.

If none of us can come to an agreement on PK's actual value...imagine how difficult it must be for those actually invested in these negotiations.

It's not nearly as cut & dry as we're making it out to be here...

It's only greedy if the habs don't spend to the cap in the coming years imo. We usually do pretty well at spending money.

People are entitled to ask for raises if they want, the boss has to say yes. That's life.

 

[417]

Which is why I'm 100% in MB's corner. He's just managing a budget, that's it. And PK's agent is trying to get as much as he can. Again, he is only 'entitled' to what the GM offers him, not what some on hfboards think he should be offered.

You can use comparables if you want, that might help start things along...but in the end as an RFA he has little leverage as I have said many times.

Players don't care much anymore...it even came out of PK's mouth a few times during the lockout...it's a business. Once they become UFAs it is very likely they will leave for the highest bidder. That is their only leverage.

I'm in MB's corner for trying to do what's best for the team, obviously, he's making a stance as a rookie GM vs a veteran agent in Meehan, and that's commendable

But i'm also in Subban's corner for standing up to what he believes in...there's no reason he should accept an inferior deal because that's what jr. capologist fans want him to do.

Subban and his agent have a job to do, just like MB has his job to do...

 

[Habtchum*]

This for me

Give him 2-3 years at 5-6M.

From the things that Bergevin and MT have said, they both think that Subban still has some developing to do. Bergevin stated that last year he didn't get a chance to take a deep look at the Habs team, so maybe he didn't get to see how important Subban is the team. Another thing is Subban sometimes get misunderstood as not being the best teammate from an outside view, and this whole time, IMO hasn't gotten a chance to see how Subban is on the team, I'm not just saying how I see things, and what worries me the most, is that the more this goes on, the more likely it is that the Habs start to atleast listen to offers for him. Just my .02$

You just don't jump from a 850,000$ salary to a 5 million $ one. 4 million is already very generous.

 

[DenverHabsFan]

I understand both sides as well, but which side do you think is 'right'?

I don't see how people can determine one side is "right" without knowing what numbers are being discussed. We don't know who is being unreasonable. I just know PK doesn't really have much leverage other than staying home. We're not a contender anyway.

 

[Capitano]

Nobody is entitled to anything. You get what you negociate.


Stop using words to twist the meaning of facts. Subban may think he deserves long-term, and that he has what it takes to negotiate it. That doesn't mean he believes he is "entitled" to such money.

What words am I using that is twisting what i'm trying to say?

Has he signed yes or no? If he hasn't then why hasn't he? Because they believe they can get more? Is that too much of a stretch for me to assume? I admit it's tough without the numbers but obviously he hasn't signed for a reason lol.

 

[Kriss E]

PK Subban is NOT a #1 defenceman.

What's a #1 Dman exactly according to you? He was the 14th most used Dman in the NHL last year. I think people are confusing Franchise Dman with #1 Dman. If PK isn't a #1 Dman in the NHL, then there's less than 30 #1 Dman in the NHL.
At the very, very worse, he's a top 2 Dman. Even if that's the case, he still deserves way more than Prust.

Pk is starting to turn the public against him. Quite selfish the way he is acting in these negos.

PK is not doing anything. Matter of fact, he hasn't said a word. The media is turning the public against him. The only thing PK said was that he wants to play hockey. Very selfish indeed.

I think he's a boss, but you need to put in a little more time to deserve what he's allegedly asking.

Yes, allegedly. Nobody actually knows what's going on. But what I don't understand is why fans actually want him locked up on a shorter term. Actually, I don't understand why PK wouldn't want a shorter term. PK is already a star Dman, every team that plays against us talks about PK and have a game plan to pressure or contain him. If we look at his booming development over the years, knowing his work ethic and passion for the game, it's only logical to think he will be even better 2 years from now. He could ask for even more cash 2 years from now. So, why are fans actually against signing him for a longer term now knowing we'd get him for cheaper than in 2 years. Makes no sense to me. It's like bizarro world.

He hasn't proven enough to jump over the "bridge" contract

Yes he has. If PK hasn't proven enough, then MaxPac didn't prove enough either yet he got an extension. Heck, Price in no way proved he was worth 6.5M a year either, most of his contract is based on potential.

Seems to be the core reason why some people here think Subban is a demi-god and should get Doughty money for the next 10 years.

Nobody here has ever said Subban should get Doughty money.
Doughty money=56M. Who here suggested that? The most I've seen is 6M over 6y, which is 36M. That's 20M less than Doughty money.

 

[417]

haha, the only assumption i'm making is that the habs have offered him a deal already and he should accept it if he wants to play hockey.

Have the habs made an offer?

If yes then he refused it right?

If he refused it then what does that mean?

Yes, we don't know the numbers, but my logic fits with any number.

Man...are you serious? So he should just accept any deal he gets because he loves to play hockey?

Would you accept a contract that you believe pays you less than what you're worth?

I'm going to assume the answer is no...and neither would anyone here on these boards.

 

[Capitano]

I'm in MB's corner for trying to do what's best for the team, obviously, he's making a stance as a rookie GM vs a veteran agent in Meehan, and that's commendable

But i'm also in Subban's corner for standing up to what he believes in...there's no reason he should accept an inferior deal because that's what jr. capologist fans want him to do.

Subban and his agent have a job to do, just like MB has his job to do...

That is pretty much the crux of it, but I think MB's job is for the 'greater good' so to speak I guess.

In a market like Montreal I don't want money to be something the fans can take shots at that's all. It's too easy of a subject to bring up. It ruins players imo.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

haha, the only assumption i'm making is that the habs have offered him a deal already and he should accept it if he wants to play hockey.

Have the habs made an offer?

If yes then he refused it right?

If he refused it then what does that mean?

Yes, we don't know the numbers, but my logic fits with any number.

What if he did not asked for more money, but for a longer term?

You just make assumptions.

 

[Capitano]

Man...are you serious? So he should just accept any deal he gets because he loves to play hockey?

Would you accept a contract that you believe pays you less than what you're worth?

I'm going to assume the answer is no...and neither would anyone here on these boards.

That is the path he chose bud. I'm not a professional hockey player. I'm not a contract employee. In the NHL this is the way it works when he is an RFA.

I'm assuming the habs made an offer, I'm not saying that the habs made a fantastic offer, but I do believe that they want to bridge him and money aside that is a problem for PK. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[bjac]

Woah woah woah.

Stop there.

1- you just made one muther****ing leap of logic by ASSUMING he wants large bundle of money. How would you know?

2- Using that assumption you pulled out of your ass, you decide to criticize his character and call him greedy?

Get out of here. Have actually hard fact to discuss mate.

You need to relax a bit.

Using logic, what he said is most likely the case. We know that Subban wants a long term contract. Its logical, every player in the NHL wants a long term contract.
Now we also know that they haven't signed yet, so MB has obviously shot down some counter propsals.

IF Mehan had offered MB a longterm contract at a small cap hit, MB would have obviously already pulled the trigger. Us being here today, 2 days before the season opener, arguing about this just goes to show that this longterm, small pricetag contract has never been on the table. Logically speaking its because Subban won't settle for a small cap hit over a long term. So its safe to say, that if there has ever been a long term contract on the table, it was for a very significant amount of money, an amount that MB was uncomfortable with.

Now don't get me mixed up as a person who this Subban is greedy. I don't agree with that part of his opinion. This is strictly business and if there is anyone to point a finger at in Subbans camp, its Mehan.

 

[Monctonscout]

You just don't jump from a 850,000$ salary to a 5 million $ one. 4 million is already very generous.

What you made before has no impact. Gomez will go from making big bucks to 1 mil/year or less. I'm sure Zajac is taking a huge jump.

 

[Andy]

Patrick Caisse ‏@PatrickCaisse
#Subban : Don Meehan just told me that there's no progress AND that there's no meeting/discussion planned with #Habs.

 

[habtastic]

I wrote this earlier, I believe it applies to your ideology:

Yes, I think it pretty much captures my philosophy. I would differ in perhaps being a little more generous in a 2 year contract in giving him something not that far below 4.5 (maybe 3-4 million). I highly doubt he will reach Norris trophy candidate status by then (we really do forget about all the other GREAT young D men around the league), so 7 million would be a lot to ask, but you're right, we want to avoid that. If he DOES deserve it...fine, but I highly doubt he will. Asking for it (as you're pointing out) is a different story. The benefit to the 2 years at 3-4 or even 4.5 is that we get an adequate evaluation of how much PK Subban really IS worth to the Montreal Canadiens.

I like your 6 year deal the most.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

What words am I using that is twisting what i'm trying to say?

"Entitled". Had you cared reading my post, you'd have seen it.

Has he signed yes or no?

No

If he hasn't then why hasn't he?

He doesn't agree to the terms proposed. Either salary, duration, or both

Because they believe they can get more?

Indeed

Is that too much of a stretch for me to assume?

Yep. Because you don't know what is the point they disagree on.

I admit it's tough without the numbers but obviously he hasn't signed for a reason lol.

Indeed. But you can't start making character call based on ****ing assumptions