P.K Subban Thread 2.0

[PricePkPatch*]

Spacek was useless. Kaberle is a useful and productive NHLer when used properly.

Fair enough. But let's try to turn Kaberle into gold!!

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

Yes, I think it pretty much captures my philosophy. I would differ in perhaps being a little more generous in a 2 year contract in giving him something not that far below 4.5 (maybe 3-4 million). I highly doubt he will reach Norris trophy candidate status by then (we really do forget about all the other GREAT young D men around the league), so 7 million would be a lot to ask, but you're right, we want to avoid that. If he DOES deserve it...fine, but I highly doubt he will. Asking for it (as you're pointing out) is a different story. The benefit to the 2 years at 3-4 or even 4.5 is that we get an adequate evaluation of how much PK Subban really IS worth to the Montreal Canadiens.

I like your 6 year deal the most.

The Habs need to take the risk now. I think I have more of a ceiling for Subbans growth which is why I believe he will deserve 7 million shortly. If Bergevin has convinced him that for this year he deserves 4 million for this year, a long term deal should be made to deduct value from the possibility of him deserving 7 million in 3-4 years, but a cap hit of only 5.75 million. Signing him to a 2 year deal will mean on his next contract he could have a cap hit of 6+ million.

I believe his work ethic and desire to succeed show traits that can make him a top 10, maybe even top 5 in the future. But if I thought he would at best be top 30, I would have a reserve on giving him a large long term contract. I guess management might believe something similar if they continue to be at an impass. Although it could be for many reasons the two sides are still at odds. It feels more and more likely that Subban will not be in the lineup for the first game of the season. Seems a shame to me

 

[Kriss E]

But we don't know what he thinks is fair right? The only thing we can deduce is that the habs have offered him a contract and he has refused it and it looks like they are far apart.

And I think the habs want a short term deal to keep him an RFA - true?

And PK's camp doesn't want that - true?

So those are the only valid assumptions on either side of the argument - true?

No, it's only speculation that has been confirmed by neither side.
Actually the only thing we've heard at some point was that Perno said both side agreed to 4years but dollars weren't right. Then we heard MB say it's getting closer. Then we heard Meehan say it's not close.
Those are the only things we've heard from the people actually involved.
Outside of that, we heard crazy rumors, varying from Habs offering 2years around 3.3-5M which is insulting, to PK wanting Doughty money (56M) which is just crazy.
But a lot of opinions people are forming is based on rumors, which is ridiculous.

Also, as a GM in the NHL, you will ALWAYS take risks on players. You sign Prust for 4years? You expect him to deliver this toughness for his time here. You sign Gionta for 5years? You expect him to bring his offensive production. Risks are unavoidable. PK is one of the least risky players to take a risk on, and if you sign him to a long term now, his salary in a couple years might actually look more like a bargain than an overpayment. There's always a risk of not panning out, We re-signed Markov to 5.75M and he missed pretty much a full season again. PK is a player that is well worth the risk.
Stop overpaying older more risky guys, or scrappers, and start overpaying your stars (if you have to overpay people).

 

[gusfring]

Kaberle is terrible. Boston and Carolina could not wait to get rid of him.

 

[gusfring]

Great way to welcome the fans back - let's not have one of our most popular player in the lineup! Yah!

 

[Jigger77]

Sucks to not have him in the lineup, but hey, not much you can do about it. I cheer for the team first so I'm looking forward to Saturday night regardless. I think he should go through the same contractual process as Price and Pacioretty. Might give us a chance to see what one of the kids can do, plus Markov is healthy so I think they'll hold up fine without him.

 

[Capitano]

No, it's only speculation that has been confirmed by neither side.
Actually the only thing we've heard at some point was that Perno said both side agreed to 4years but dollars weren't right. Then we heard MB say it's getting closer. Then we heard Meehan say it's not close.
Those are the only things we've heard from the people actually involved.
Outside of that, we heard crazy rumors, varying from Habs offering 2years around 3.3-5M which is insulting, to PK wanting Doughty money (56M) which is just crazy.
But a lot of opinions people are forming is based on rumors, which is ridiculous.

So then the only assumption we can make at all is that the habs have made an offer and PK has refused it - true?

 

[Capitano]

Sucks to not have him in the lineup, but hey, not much you can do about it. I cheer for the team first so I'm looking forward to Saturday night regardless. I think he should go through the same contractual process as Price and Pacioretty. Might give us a chance to see what one of the kids can do, plus Markov is healthy so I think they'll hold up fine without him.

100% with you...

 

[Drive425]

Spacek was useless. Kaberle is a useful and productive NHLer when used properly.

Kaberle is soft as butter. Bench warmer is how to use him properly. Diaz and Weber and Cube can suck up the extra minutes until PK signs his new contract.

Oh and I forgot Commodore 64

 

[Kriss E]

So then the only assumption we can make at all is that the habs have made an offer and PK has refused it - true?

You can't even make that assumption. There was no confirmation of an offer actually being made. All we know is that there has been some discussions, and not even on a daily basis. That's the only thing we know for a fact. Neither side officially said they had received offers, unless I missed something.

 

[Drive425]

You can't even make that assumption. There was no confirmation of an offer actually being made. All we know is that there has been some discussions, and not even on a daily basis. That's the only thing we know for a fact. Neither side officially said they had received offers, unless I missed something.

Can only hope when Benn signs his contract it will add fuel to the fire and be done quickly. We really need him on the ice.

 

[Capitano]

You can't even make that assumption. There was no confirmation of an offer actually being made. All we know is that there has been some discussions, and not even on a daily basis. That's the only thing we know for a fact. Neither side officially said they had received offers, unless I missed something.

Ok no official offer was made, but we have heard Meehan say it 'wasn't even close' so things have been discussed - true?

 

[PricePkPatch*]

Ok no official offer was made, but we have heard Meehan say it 'wasn't even close' so things have been discussed - true?

Stop assuming, damnit!

We. Don't. Know.

And Meehan might very well just try to tip public opinion before tonight's scrimmage, or saturday's match. If the crowd starts chanting "Subban! Subban!" he'll have won his gamble.

 

[gusfring]

Kaberle is soft as butter. Bench warmer is how to use him properly. Diaz and Weber and Cube can suck up the extra minutes until PK signs his new contract.

Oh and I forgot Commodore 64

That's the issue. Kaberle is soft. Diaz is soft. Weber is soft.

All much too easy to play against.

 

[bjac]

Ultimately, I will just claim one thing:

PK is in his right to demand what he wants. And so is Bergevin's right to refuse such terms.

Vice-Versa.

I don't care if PK does get signed long or short term. But I am not gonna give MB a free pass just because he wants to be dogmatic about some sort of "structure"

This structure is what helps make good organizations great. Look at Detroit. Probably the most successful franchise of the past 20 years, installed a "dogmatic salary structure" in their own organization many years ago. Noone got paid more than Lindstrom, and everyone had to pay their dues (especially young players). As their players mature, they sign very standard and predicatble contracts. This does not prevent anyone in Detroit from making good money either. Anyway, this obviously worked out well for Detroit, so what is your problem with MB trying to do the same thing. Standard organizational rules and procedures when it comes to players, and more specifically their contracts can only HELP an organization. It adds consistancy and stability.

So I DO give Bergevin a free pass on this one. If PK wants to put himself in the position to be "made and example of" then so be it. That was his choice (along with Mehans). Agents need to understand that just because MB is a new GM doesn't mean that they can try to take advantage of him.

 

[Capitano]

Stop assuming, damnit!

We. Don't. Know.

And Meehan might very well just try to tip public opinion before tonight's scrimmage, or saturday's match. If the crowd starts chanting "Subban! Subban!" he'll have won his gamble.

Ok so i'll assume that no contact has been made at all then and they haven't discuss anything.

Is it too much of a stretch to assume that they have had discussions? LOLOL

 

[Blood On The Ice]

That's the issue. Kaberle is soft. Diaz is soft. Weber is soft.

All much too easy to play against.

And we all know that Michel Therrien do not like his d-men sofffff

 

[Kriss E]

Ok no official offer was made, but we have heard Meehan say it 'wasn't even close' so things have been discussed - true?

It doesn't mean no official offers was made, just like no matter what people say, there's no confirmation on PK wanting a long term deal. For all we know, it might be the other way around. Maybe it's PK wanting a shorter term deal so he can boost his value and break the bank in a year or two.
We don't know anything at all. The only thing we know is that Meehan and Bergevin have talked to one another, how did those talks go? No idea.
What people should do now is back off PK, get excited for the return of the game, and hope both sides can come to an agreement asap.

 

[skule123]

Anyway, this obviously worked out well for Detroit, so what is your problem with MB trying to do the same thing. Standard organizational rules and procedures when it comes to players, and more specifically their contracts can only HELP an organization. It adds consistancy and stability.

Anyone able to comment on the extent to which Chicago has a salary structure installed, since I think that'll be instructive for a view into the Bergevin mindset?

 

[Kriss E]

This structure is what helps make good organizations great. Look at Detroit. Probably the most successful franchise of the past 20 years, installed a "dogmatic salary structure" in their own organization many years ago. Noone got paid more than Lindstrom, and everyone had to pay their dues (especially young players).

Right, and not everybody stayed. Also, you're talking about the last Dynasty. Look at a guy like Hossa, he signed a one year deal there at a cheaper price because he wanted to play on a team that could win the cup. If they were a mediocre-bad team, that structure wouldn't have worked.
Let's not forget, Lidstrom was their Captain, best player. In Montreal, we want to make our best player accept less cash apparently. It's working upside down.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

This structure is what helps make good organizations great. Look at Detroit. Probably the most successful franchise of the past 20 years, installed a "dogmatic salary structure" in their own organization many years ago. Noone got paid more than Lindstrom, and everyone had to pay their dues (especially young players). As their players mature, they sign very standard and predicatble contracts. This does not prevent anyone in Detroit from making good money either. Anyway, this obviously worked out well for Detroit, so what is your problem with MB trying to do the same thing. Standard organizational rules and procedures when it comes to players, and more specifically their contracts can only HELP an organization. It adds consistancy and stability.

So I DO give Bergevin a free pass on this one. If PK wants to put himself in the position to be "made and example of" then so be it. That was his choice (along with Mehans). Agents need to understand that just because MB is a new GM doesn't mean that they can try to take advantage of him.

Okay. What happens if PK is offered a long-term contract by another team?

Should Bergevin match it? Is there reasons Bergevin should break the structure?

 

[Monctonscout]

Kaberle is terrible. Boston and Carolina could not wait to get rid of him.

Right as proven by Boston trading a 1st and Colborne for him(I'm sure they knew him well from the 8 head to head games a year) and Carolina giving him 3 years at 4.25 mil(I'm sure Rutherford didn't watch him play for Boston).

 

[habtastic]

It is not. But maybe it's not what Subban wants. Just because a deal is, technically, fair, doesn't mean you have to swallow it if it's not what you want.

When did I say it was? We were discussing what is objectively fair, not what the wants and desires of players are or that PK HASSS to take the deal. I know he doesn't. He hasn't! But I can judge that as being unreasonable and in the context of defending MB's stance. PK may WANT to upstage Beyonce (and those two backup singers) at the Superbowl, but that's not what I'm discussing.

Subban has played 2 seasons. Not 1; 2.

yeah. I know. I said SUPPOSE you had to sign Price after that particular season, trying to draw the analogy that after one season or two (not a huge difference in time), Price was young, coming off a season which we were veryyyy excited about. It may be forgotten now after all the ups and downs, but it was a freakin craze with statues being built and honestly MORE hype about Price than Subban currently. If he had been subjected to the same rationale (he's proven that he's worth more than Gillette), the next few years would have been called into question. Just saying, Carey benefitted from NOT getting a big contract at a time when there was lots of hype surrounding him (which is the current situation re: Subban).

Carey Price started off hot in 07-08, sure. But he weakened at times and often lost his footing to Christobal Huet at the time.

And then 08-09, 09-10 came upon us, with Halak upstaging him in the 2nd season.

When the 2010 contract signing arrived, Price hadn't proved himself to be a 100% reliable #1 goalie. Not a single year; Huet or Halak were always on his heels. PK Subban, on the other hand, kept being one of the most reliable player since 2011 arrived.

Huet was showing him the ropes until Price showed that Huet was dispensable in dominating fashion. This is the point in time that I'm referring to in my last point. The Halak stuff is irrelevant to my point as it came later, after his deal. Subban has not been AS perfect as you describe. I perpetually defend him and I really liked what he showed defensively, while struggling offensively (his PP performance was not great...I lost quite a bit of cash on that), so I can name at least 3 other young D men who were better in the same situation. Penalties!!! This is all just analogous to Price requiring a bit more time to establish himself as a future Vezina candidate (what's more likely, PK for Norris or Price for Vezina? Yeah, Carey has stiff competition, but he's good enough to do it at the moment ignoring the lack of comparable D...oh right...Subban) It's laughable to even consider PK in the Norris category at this point. (IMO the Karlsson pick was the WORST decision I've ever seen for an award - the guy is not the best defenceman in the league by a MILE! Weber got robbed hard.) PK has to work himself into that discussion before asking that kind of money (objectively).

Yes, but it keeps looking less and less likely. If Subban had faltered last season, he would have proved not to be a reliable #1 yet. But he did not. He's known some bad streaks (but then, so did every one of our players) but he kept going and have known some amazing moments.

Never he showed the sort of instability Price showed early in his career. Subban's worst time was the early 2010-11 season, and he improved by leaps of giants since, never regressing.



I do not believe Subban thinks he has reached his full potential yet. I don't think he will sit on his big contract; that's not in his nature.

Am I missing the part about him getting benched? There are holes in his game. To his credit, he's been fixing them. #1 D on the Habs (btw, Andrei Markov says hi and just wait til you see a few games from him...time may have erased the memory of just what a #1 D looks like). Not denying he's a great top pairing D, but you said it yourself, he had bad streaks. Whether others did or didn't should in this situation be irrelevant particularly when we're talking about an individual player's reliability. Emelin's hit highlight reel is freakin awesome! Many of them had awesome moments. Eller's 3(4) goal night was incredible. Cammy being a deadly sniper one season and playoffs and the next being neutered should give you pause. (Possibly the most popular jersey for two years, now...well, we have Bourque - things can change.)

I don't think he'd sit on a big contract either. Never said he would. Nor a long contract.

I reiterate:

- under 4 years: can't ask for the moon (here is where I think we disagree on ~ 1-1.5 million)
- 4 years: DEFINITELY can't ask for the moon (I'm assuming you understand why, i.e. free agency)
- more than 4 years (6-7 maybe): Im very comfortable with 5-5.5 million (I believe in him)

 

[Monctonscout]

I really hope Bergevin doesn't cave - PK is an ego-maniac who thinks he's bigger than the team. There'a a reason he got in the most fights last year during practices - teammates think he's a hot dog. Bergevin has to stick to his guns or trade him to the Oilers - Yakupov wouldn't be a bad fit here with Galyenchuk at center for the next 5 years.
It really pisses me off that one player could be so selfish after only 2 years in the league - let him rot.

So you must know PK very well to be able to judge him like that, ask him what he was offered and what his agent is looking for?

 

[Monctonscout]

This structure is what helps make good organizations great. Look at Detroit. Probably the most successful franchise of the past 20 years, installed a "dogmatic salary structure" in their own organization many years ago. Noone got paid more than Lindstrom, and everyone had to pay their dues (especially young players). As their players mature, they sign very standard and predicatble contracts. This does not prevent anyone in Detroit from making good money either. Anyway, this obviously worked out well for Detroit, so what is your problem with MB trying to do the same thing. Standard organizational rules and procedures when it comes to players, and more specifically their contracts can only HELP an organization. It adds consistancy and stability.

So I DO give Bergevin a free pass on this one. If PK wants to put himself in the position to be "made and example of" then so be it. That was his choice (along with Mehans). Agents need to understand that just because MB is a new GM doesn't mean that they can try to take advantage of him.

Detroit had to actually win something before players took less to play there and big hometown discounts.