Post-Game Talk: Ovi's Mad: Pens win 4-3

[Mr Jiggyfly]

"Not pulling his own weight" is stupidity in its purest form when it comes to finding reasons NOT to put a young player in the best possible position to succeed. It's old school, hierarchical bull **** and it just sucks the life out of the very players you should be trying to nurture.

Put Geno or Sid between Adams and Sill for a full season of 5 on 5. Give them no PP time but hey, put them out there 5 on 5 for 20 minutes a night. Serious question, how many points do you think they put up in a season?

No, Beau is not Sid and he's not Geno, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. When you take a guy that's suited for a particular role - and drafted as such - putting him in the worst possible spot and making him fight through it to prove he belongs is simply asinine.

You're not weeding anyone out or making any sort of point by putting a raw talent with grinders, then asking him to go against nature and "produce" at a regular clip, especially when the guys he's playing with are just as guilty of being exactly what Bennett is being punished for to begin with. This is exactly the stuff Larionov wrote about.

Yes the circumstances were different because of the injuries, but I think Brian Rust got more minutes next to Geno in a two week span than Beau has had in his limited time over the last few seasons COMBINED. The worst part is, it's obvious he and Geno work, but they fight tooth and nail to not play them together.

You've got a 45 to 55 point player there if you just let him grow, and you're stifling him for what? To try to fit some stupid vision you have or out of fear of offending veterans who aren't pulling their own weight?

If they trade Bennett without giving him a legit shot, just to SEE once in for all what they may have, it's an indictment on the franchise and how they've handled their young players. Simple as that.

Hey now, Kunitz has carried his weight the last 8 games before this with half ass play and his one whole point. All the while being gifted a spot on the top PP and playing with Crosby or Malkin. He finally got a goal last night, which was essentially a gift. If you play with Malkin and Crosby long enough, you will eventually pot one.

The whole situation is just pathetic. BB, while he is probably a good guy and such, is an asset the org used a first round pick on. You can't afford to ruin the development of a guy like BB, because of washed up players like Kunitz and Adams.

I came across an article the other day from Jan 18th and MJ was praising BB and said he was playing well with Malkin, he had good vision, etc. Then he even hands us horse **** like this:



Like I said the other day, play him with Malkin for a full season, and he will put up 40 points or so. I have no doubt in my mind. If he can't stay healthy again, then ya, move on at that point. If he can stay healthy and they still want to trade him, fine.

The difference is, you are now trading a young asset with high value, vs what he is now, which is an extremely low valued asset.

 

[Sam Spade]

You didn't notice Bennett against the Hawks?

You are correct he had a very good game against them, I forgot.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Hey now, Kunitz has carried his weight the last 8 games before this with half ass play and his one whole point. All the while being gifted a spot on the top PP and playing with Crosby or Malkin. He finally got a goal last night, which was essentially a gift. If you play with Malkin and Crosby long enough, you will eventually pot one.

The whole situation is just pathetic. BB, while he is probably a good guy and such, is an asset the org used a first round pick on. You can't afford to ruin the development of a guy like BB, because of washed up players like Kunitz and Adams.

I came across an article the other day from Jan 18th and MJ was praising BB and said he was playing well with Malkin, he had good vision, etc. Then he even hands us horse **** like this:



Like I said the other day, play him with Malkin for a full season, and he will put up 40 points or so. I have no doubt in my mind. If he can't stay healthy again, then ya, move on at that point. If he can stay healthy and they still want to trade him, fine.

The difference is, you are now trading a young asset with high value, vs what he is now, which is an extremely low valued asset.

1. Why is that quote horse****?

2. BB playing a full uninterrupted season even on the 3rd line will get close to 40 points (33pt pace so far in his career). I don't know why moving up to post 40 is such a great thing. If he's playing 2nd line RW with Geno the bar better be set higher than that.

I would have no problem with putting him on the 2nd line but you act like playing on the 3rd line is some type of punishment for a inexperienced winger. I don't see why there is anything wrong with letting a young guy get experience and develop on the 3rd line and grow into a top 6 spot. Ideally he would already be there with Kuntiz being bumped down but its really a non issue.

 

[Sam Spade]

though improved, the third and fourth lines are still subpar for a playoff club. the top two lines are only above average because of their centers. the blueline has talent individually but is a poor collection of players not built for playoff hockey.

depth is improved but still not a strength compared to other playoff clubs.

this team is going nowhere unless sid/geno are near the top of their games.

This might be the 1st post that I pretty much agree with you on all points.

Malkin and Crosby quite simply can get guys paid. Comeau, Kunitz, Dupuis, wanna get a fat contract, get on a line with the two best centers in the game.

And even with Winnick I don't see the third and fourth lines being that great unless 2014 playoff Sutter shows up.

The D gets bashed around all game by every physical team they play and only Despres has an answer. Every time Letang goes to throw a hit I hold my breathe he doesn't hurt himself.

If it all clicks of course the Pens can win the Cup they have the high end talent to do it, but they will need the match ups to fall perfectly, just as they did in 2009. But lets be real this team will go as far as Crosby and Malkin take them.

 

[Old Gregg]

People concentrating on any small things Crosby MIGHT have done incorrectly in this game is about the same as people sniping at Malkin for having (even for his standards) an unusually miserable night in the dot in the midst of a dominating game.

Crosby was in near-vintage form, last night.

I'm so disappointed I missed the 2nd and 3rd period of this game. I may watch it tonight. Hopefully these guys can keep up their current play

Also does anyone have a video of the Fleury penalty

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1. Why is that quote horse****?

2. BB playing a full uninterrupted season even on the 3rd line will get close to 40 points (33pt pace so far in his career). I don't know why moving up to post 40 is such a great thing. If he's playing 2nd line RW with Geno the bar better be set higher than that.

I would have no problem with putting him on the 2nd line but you act like playing on the 3rd line is some type of punishment for a inexperienced winger. I don't see why there is anything wrong with letting a young guy get experience and develop on the 3rd line and grow into a top 6 spot. Ideally he would already be there with Kuntiz being bumped down but its really a non issue.

Uh, he isn't on the third line. If he was, and got rolled over shifts there, I would have no problem with it.

BB game has regressed since he was benched and now he is being regulated to fourth line minutes. When he was the best player on the ice agt Chi, he didn't get a second of PP time or a single shift in OT.

Now Downie is taking his shifts on the third line. With Winnik coming in, he isn't going to suddenly get more minutes.

I also believe Capps sources that they tried to trade BB and it fell through. It makes a lot of sense when you look at the odd scratchings and now his ice time keeps dwindling.

And putting up 40 points while showing you can play top six minutes, is an attainable goal, that would put substantial value on BB in a trade.

Just like there is a significant difference after a year in Despres' value, there will be with BB if he isn't jerked around.

 

[cassius]

I've noticed a trend that when Malkin gets physically engaged in a game, he tends to elevate to an entirely higher level.

Wilson trolling him in warmups and the bench brawl really seemed to spark him.

 

[wej20]

You wont like Malkin when he's angry, didn't someone get under his skin against the Rangers and then he destroyed Girardi?

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Uh, he isn't on the third line. If he was, and got rolled over shifts there, I would have no problem with it.

BB game has regressed since he was benched and now he is being regulated to fourth line minutes. When he was the best player on the ice agt Chi, he didn't get a second of PP time or a single shift in OT.

Now Downie is taking his shifts on the third line. With Winnik coming in, he isn't going to suddenly get more minutes.

I also believe Capps sources that they tried to trade BB and it fell through. It makes a lot of sense when you look at the odd scratchings and now his ice time keeps dwindling.

And putting up 40 points while showing you can play top six minutes, is an attainable goal, that would put substantial value on BB in a trade.

Just like there is a significant difference after a year in Despres' value, there will be with BB if he isn't jerked around.

1. He has been for the most part.

2. He hasn't regressed at all he's been playing really well. Don't care about the PP time against Chicago, they have bigger issues getting the real PP guys straightened out. Also don't care about OT time. He should be in the rotation above Kunitz but its a non issue.

3. Winnik's gonna play the left side it wont effect BB, They might move Downie there and that IMO would be a mistake as I think the overall lineup with BB on the 3rd and Downie on the fourth is more effective.

4. That might be true but do we know what the return would have been? That's the key IMO. Im not trying to push BB out the door but for the right return he's fair game.

5. I think with a competent C he can put 40 up on the third, If he's playing with Geno 40 is ok but the bar would need to be raised. It would increase his trade value but that an secondary motivation in my mind. BBs development and the teams success are far more important than his trade value.

6. I think BBs trade value is going up though, just like Despres (not as fast or as far). The biggest thing that will help his value is just staying healthy. Points are nice but I don't think talent is the question.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Crosby was great in all 3 zones last night and scored a huge goal on the pp. If Geno hadn't been as dominant as he was Crosby would have stood out much more.

BB is being horribly mis-used, I don't know how anybody could argue he isn't.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I've noticed a trend that when Malkin gets physically engaged in a game, he tends to elevate to an entirely higher level.

Wilson trolling him in warmups and the bench brawl really seemed to spark him.

It isn't QUITE a guaranteed disaster for the other team. The Flyers, for instance, have been pushing his buttons successfully for the most part for a few years, now. But a lot of it, I think, depends on simply how much he's feeling it at the time. How dialed in he is.

Had Tom Wilson been watching Malkin a little closer the last handful of games, especially, maybe he'd have known better. Because right now, yeah... trying to piss with the guy is probably going to blow up in your face.

 

[Jacob]

I hope we see more of that move where Crosby skates up the wall and circles toward the face off dot and snaps a low wrister through a screen mid-stride. Add that to his repertoire and he'll get another 5-7 goals per year.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1. He has been for the most part.

2. He hasn't regressed at all he's been playing really well. Don't care about the PP time against Chicago, they have bigger issues getting the real PP guys straightened out. Also don't care about OT time. He should be in the rotation above Kunitz but its a non issue.

3. Winnik's gonna play the left side it wont effect BB, They might move Downie there and that IMO would be a mistake as I think the overall lineup with BB on the 3rd and Downie on the fourth is more effective.

4. That might be true but do we know what the return would have been? That's the key IMO. Im not trying to push BB out the door but for the right return he's fair game.

5. I think with a competent C he can put 40 up on the third, If he's playing with Geno 40 is ok but the bar would need to be raised. It would increase his trade value but that an secondary motivation in my mind. BBs development and the teams success are far more important than his trade value.

6. I think BBs trade value is going up though, just like Despres (not as fast or as far). The biggest thing that will help his value is just staying healthy. Points are nice but I don't think talent is the question.

I'd prefer they kept BB, but Capp has been right in the past with his sources. So if he says they tried to trade BB, that is bothersome and at the core of my frustration with the situation right now.

Perhaps some other team values him more than I would think, but I doubt the deal would have fell through if both teams were happy with the return. So something was amiss, obviously.

If BB plays with Malkin next season, stays healthy and puts up 40 points, there isn't even a debate that his value will be substantially higher than it is now.

The fact that they probably were talking about moving him while his value is this low, seems awfully stupid IMHO. For an org that is woeful at developing skilled fwds, you have to wonder what they are thinking. They honestly deserve zero benefit of the doubt, because it is a proven fact they have no idea how to draft and develop skilled fwds.

Its gotten truly ridiculous and its time they start trying to figure out what is at the root cause of this extremely disturbing 20 year trend.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I wonder what was said at the end of the CBJ game. I mean, that game didn't end well, but maybe the Crosby fight had a delayed effect. Like I posted in another thread, after Crosby fought Niskanen he went on a 25 game pt streak and the team also started playing some good hockey.

Same. idk if someone blew up or it was just embarrassing/angering enough to jolt something. Something gave somewhere, though.

 

[Pancakes]

I hope we see more of that move where Crosby skates up the wall and circles toward the face off dot and snaps a low wrister through a screen mid-stride. Add that to his repertoire and he'll get another 5-7 goals per year.

Walking off the wall and shooting with a screen is always a great play whether you have a lethal shot or not. It used to be Jagr's bread and butter. Giroux also uses that play to great effect. He walks off the wall with the puck and then either fires a seam pass or a wrister. Patrick Kane does it too.

I've never understood why Sid doesn't do that more. He has the skating and quick hands to do it and it's such a great move on the PP.

 

[Old Gregg]

Same. idk if someone blew up or it was just embarrassing/angering enough to jolt something. Something gave somewhere, though.

It sure woke up Crosby and Malkin

 

[billybudd]

"Hey Geno. Next year we're going to play you with our fourth best right wing the entire year, no matter how he plays. Reason for this is we want him to feel good about himself and we're using you to do it. We expect him to have about 10 goals and whatever he can leech off you in assists."


It's "Tangradi played his best hockey with Sid. Leave him there for a year," repeated by the same people who said it then. Never mind that Sid--the only of the two who actually mattered--looked far from his best with Tangradi.

Malkin and Crosby don't exist to stat-pad fumbling projects so they feel like they're helping when they're not. No idea where that idea comes from.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I'd prefer they kept BB, but Capp has been right in the past with his sources. So if he says they tried to trade BB, that is bothersome and at the core of my frustration with the situation right now.

Perhaps some other team values him more than I would think, but I doubt the deal would have fell through if both teams were happy with the return. So something was amiss, obviously.

If BB plays with Malkin next season, stays healthy and puts up 40 points, there isn't even a debate that his value will be substantially higher than it is now.

The fact that they probably were talking about moving him while his value is this low, seems awfully stupid IMHO. For an org that is woeful at developing skilled fwds, you have to wonder what they are thinking. They honestly deserve zero benefit of the doubt, because it is a proven fact they have no idea how to draft and develop skilled fwds.

Its gotten truly ridiculous and its time they start trying to figure out what is at the root cause of this extremely disturbing 20 year trend.

1. Yeah I think trading him would likely be a mistake. Im not dead set against it in theory but I cannot think of many situations where they would be getting the better end of a BB deal.

2. Yeah , I agree about his value going up if he got 40 with Malkin. I just think 40 shouldn't be the standard for anyone on Malkins wing in general. I don't think we are disagreeing in general, just want to qualify that.

3. Yeah you would think they would luck into a couple of home grown forwards. But stranger thing have happened.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

It sure woke up Crosby and Malkin

The team in overall looks better, Johnston has even improved in some areas.

There's still issues but overall something changed.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

1. Yeah I think trading him would likely be a mistake. Im not dead set against it in theory but I cannot think of many situations where they would be getting the better end of a BB deal.

2. Yeah , I agree about his value going up if he got 40 with Malkin. I just think 40 shouldn't be the standard for anyone on Malkins wing in general. I don't think we are disagreeing in general, just want to qualify that.

3. Yeah you would think they would luck into a couple of home grown forwards. But stranger thing have happened.

Maybe they can start by developing a third liner first I guess. Since they have no clue what they are doing. Why jump in feet first...

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Maybe they can start by developing a third liner first I guess. Since they have no clue what they are doing. Why jump in feet first...

They might develop a winger by the time Cleveland develops a QB.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

"Hey Geno. Next year we're going to play you with our fourth best right wing the entire year, no matter how he plays. Reason for this is we want him to feel good about himself and we're using you to do it. We expect him to have about 10 goals and whatever he can leech off you in assists."


It's "Tangradi played his best hockey with Sid. Leave him there for a year," repeated by the same people who said it then. Never mind that Sid--the only of the two who actually mattered--looked far from his best with Tangradi.

Malkin and Crosby don't exist to stat-pad fumbling projects so they feel like they're helping when they're not. No idea where that idea comes from.

You really can't see the difference between BB and Tangradi?

Also lol at calling BB our 4th best rw when Adams is on the team.

The best part is you discounting a young, talented player who hasn't even played 100 nhl games yet simply because he has been used poorly and put in a position where he is not going to succeed.

 

[chethejet]

Hey, don't deal from a position of weakness. Trade some D man for filling a need up front. the fact is the D man if not a shut down guy or is exceptional offensive talent is not a big deal. Pens have Maatta, DP, Letang, Despres, Borts and two or three young D amen. Eventually Letang will be moved as his worth to the Pens will decline. Not sure when, but pens have to get picks or top 6 forwards in the next two years.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

Is IcedCapp's comments on a potential Bennett trade in another thread and I missed it? Anyone have a link? That is troubling to say the least.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

1. Yeah I think trading him would likely be a mistake. Im not dead set against it in theory but I cannot think of many situations where they would be getting the better end of a BB deal.

2. Yeah , I agree about his value going up if he got 40 with Malkin. I just think 40 shouldn't be the standard for anyone on Malkins wing in general. I don't think we are disagreeing in general, just want to qualify that.

3. Yeah you would think they would luck into a couple of home grown forwards. But stranger thing have happened.

Beau with Malkin should be scoring at a 55+ point pace. I could see Beau hitting 25 goals and with his play making maybe get Malkin back to 40+ goals.

He is are one shot at a cheap forward in the top 6 that can create