Ovechkin, Datsyuk and 2007-08 WAR

[DearDiary]

Explain.

Explain why Derek Roy is better than Crosby

 

[DitchMarner]

Explain why Derek Roy is better than Crosby

The numbers are only for the 2007-2008 season and Crosby missed about 30 games that season.

That said, I still don't know how Roy's rating is that high.

 

[filinski77]

A lot of empty goals with zero defense and a guy that is willing to score a goal, give up 4, lose the game and think it was a positive result.

He literally only had 3 empty net goals.

The capitals finished 12th in the league that year, despite the capitals terrible roster: 2nd place in goals only had 26, 2nd place in points had 69 points. Ovi had crazy possession numbers that season too, since his complete offensive dominance heavily outweighed any defensive sleights you can think of.

Hate the dude all you want, but you just make yourself look foolish by making stuff up.

 

[Machinehead]

People will tell you Ovechkin was mediocre in 07-08 to come to the conclusion that analytics are bad.

It's truly bizarre.

 

[Machinehead]

The numbers are only for the 2007-2008 season and Crosby missed about 30 games that season.

That said, I still don't know how Roy's rating is that high.

81 points in 78 games, 23 even strength goals, and absolutely fabulous shot and goal impacts playing over 20 minutes a night against hard competition.

I believe it.

 

[LarKing]

What’s interesting is that Evolving Hockey’s WAR model has Datsyuk as far and away the best player in the 2007-present era. I wish I had seen more of his prime but I think it’s possible that he truly was one of the greatest players of all time.

Datsyuk was an absolute animal in his prime. He made chances out of nothing with his dangling and intelligence. Routinely made veteran players look like they didn’t belong in the NHL.

 

[Apotheosis]

Datsyuk was an absolute animal in his prime. He made chances out of nothing with his dangling and intelligence. Routinely made veteran players look like they didn’t belong in the NHL.

Dude is arguably the best two way player of all time while routinely sniffing 100 points in non-offensive systems.

 

[LarKing]

Dude is arguably the best two way player of all time while routinely sniffing 100 points in non-offensive systems.

Then factor in that Datsyuk and Zetterberg were often separated and Datsyuk rarely had good wingers. Guys like Cleary and Abdelkader stole a lot of potential points.

 

[Apotheosis]

Then factor in that Datsyuk and Zetterberg were often separated and Datsyuk rarely had good wingers. Guys like Cleary and Abdelkader stole a lot of potential points.

Yeah. On pure offensive talent alone, I genuinely think he could have smashed 100+ points in most seasons he played if he played in a more offensive system. That stickhandling, passing and vision combination is just too elite to pass out. His best players were separated and Babcock to this day still runs that trash "let's split both PP" garbage.

 

[eviohh26]

What’s interesting is that Evolving Hockey’s WAR model has Datsyuk as far and away the best player in the 2007-present era. I wish I had seen more of his prime but I think it’s possible that he truly was one of the greatest players of all time.

Been saying this for a LONG time. Guy was just amazing to watch.

 

[Machinehead]

Datsyuk was an absolute animal in his prime. He made chances out of nothing with his dangling and intelligence. Routinely made veteran players look like they didn’t belong in the NHL.

He could have been putting up McDavid/Kucherov seasons offensively if he wasn't as committed to defense as he was, but he won his teams a lot of games.

 

[Lebowski]

He could have been putting up McDavid/Kucherov seasons offensively if he wasn't as committed to defense as he was, but he won his teams a lot of games.

Dastyuk was good, but he wasn't that good.

Playing a more defense oriented game also doesn't imply it'd convert 1 for 1 if he were to put his efforts on offense instead. Being a good defensive player can lead to more offense in and of itself.

He was considered one of the top players in the league in his prime, rightfully so. At his peak, he was up there with the very bests. But he was never part of the big 3, rightfully so. He never had the tools to be as dominant as McDavid, not even close.

 

[Machinehead]

Dastyuk was good, but he wasn't that good.

Playing a more defense oriented game also doesn't imply it'd convert 1 for 1 if he were to put his efforts on offense instead. Being a good defensive player can lead to more offense in and of itself.

He was considered one of the top players in the league in his prime, rightfully so. At his peak, he was up there with the very bests. But he was never part of the big 3, rightfully so. He never had the tools to be as dominant as McDavid, not even close.

You don't think Datsyuk could have had 20 more points in the years he had 97?

 

[Lebowski]

You don't think Datsyuk could have had 20 more points in the years he had 97?

I don't. 20 points is a pretty massive gap. And points aside, Datsyuk just isn't on McDavid's level. Different tiers of players.

Generally speaking, I don't believe being good defensively necessarily takes away a substantial amount of production. Not when said player is out there on every PP and also happens to be a top offensive player, at least.

 

[Hustlr]

I would say:

Crosby (2nd)
Iginla (5th)
Thornton (6th)
Malkin (7th)
Datsyuk (3rd)

Sounds like you fully support OP’s assessment. LOL

 

[Mickey Marner]

Datsyuk was arguably the 3rd best Red Wing that year, especially if you include playoffs.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Explain why Derek Roy is better than Crosby

I'm not the one making claims in here. I simply asked a poster for clarification.

 

[Turin]

You don't think Datsyuk could have had 20 more points in the years he had 97?

Probably not, no.

 

[NHL WAR]

Explain why Derek Roy is better than Crosby

Other posters have touched on it, but Crosby only played 53 games that year. He would rank 2nd with a pro-rated WAR. Also, Roy was no slouch in his prime. Over a point a game center playing 20 minutes a night.

 

[Baxterman]

Sounds like you fully support OP’s assessment. LOL

Not really which is why my rankings are different than his. If I fully supported him they would be the same.

 

[Khelandros]

Ovechkin won the Hart, Pearson, Richard, and the Art Ross while outscoring his nearest teammate by 43 points and 39 goals, had 101 primary points, and you think it's obvious that his season wasn't an all-time great season?

Considering that the post is using WAR, and the fact that Washington was 12th in the league in wins. Playing in the Southeast division which was bad. Datsyk had 97 points, but Detroit had 11 more wins than Washington.

 

[Machinehead]

He literally only had 3 empty net goals.

The capitals finished 12th in the league that year, despite the capitals terrible roster: 2nd place in goals only had 26, 2nd place in points had 69 points. Ovi had crazy possession numbers that season too, since his complete offensive dominance heavily outweighed any defensive sleights you can think of.

Hate the dude all you want, but you just make yourself look foolish by making stuff up.

This is still true.

He's still one of the better 5v5 goal impact players in the league despite the fact that he hasn't seen the inside of his own zone in about 4 years.

And honestly, who cares? You can get an AHL team to play a system. You can't teach what Ovechkin does.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

You don't think Datsyuk could have had 20 more points in the years he had 97?

No. The guy was on the best single season team post lockout in 07-08, and still didn't hit 100 points.

 

[Claypool]

Generally speaking, I don't believe being good defensively necessarily takes away a substantial amount of production.

When you spend 2-3 minutes of ice time per game playing a man down like Datsyuk did in 2007-08 you're generally going to have a harder time accumulating points. But that's why Datsyuk won Selke trophies and Stanley Cups.

 

[Midnight Judges]

When you spend 2-3 minutes of ice time per game playing a man down like Datsyuk did in 2007-08 you're generally going to have a harder time accumulating points. But that's why Datsyuk won Selke trophies and Stanley Cups.

Datsyuk averaged 1:48 of PK time that season.