Ovechkin, Datsyuk and 2007-08 WAR

  1. NHL WAR Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2018
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    84
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    It is not an unpopular opinion to say Alex Ovechkin's 2007-08 season is the best of the 2000s. I was curious to see how it would grade by WAR. I also wanted to test how a peak Pavel Datsyuk's all around game would compare to Ovechkin's dominant goal scoring.
    So I went component by component, pitting them head to head in each aspect of WAR: Ovechkin, Datsyuk and the Importance of WAR. I also listed the leaders league wide for each category.

    For those not wanting to read the full thing, I'll spoil the ending. Ovechkin finished with 9 WAR, Datsyuk 8. Both of these are crazy numbers. The only 8 WAR season from 2015-19 was Nikita Kucherov's 8.4 last year.

    Top 10 forwards by WAR 2007-08:


    player (Team)WAR
    ALEX.OVECHKIN (WSH)9
    PAVEL.DATSYUK (DET)8
    HENRIK.ZETTERBERG (DET)7.6
    JAROME.IGINLA (CGY)7
    JOE.THORNTON (S.J)6.7
    EVGENI.MALKIN (PIT)6.6
    DANIEL.ALFREDSSON (OTT)6
    DEREK.ROY (BUF)5.8
    SIDNEY.CROSBY (PIT)5.6
    JASON.SPEZZA (OTT)5.3


    This exercise further reinforces two of my opinions:

    1. Alex Ovechkin's 07-08 season very much should be considered an all-timer
    2. An all-encompassing stat like WAR is necessary to reward do it all players ,like Datsyuk, who cannot be accurately measured by points alone

    Feel free to share your thoughts on the data and share your personal ranking of the best seasons of the 2000s.
     
  2. Blais For Smythe go

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2012
    Messages:
    84,156
    Likes Received:
    15,146
    Trophy Points:
    177
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Nova Scotia
  3. Baxterman Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,939
    Likes Received:
    1,471
    Trophy Points:
    100
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    That seems to show how poor of a stat war is than anything else.
     
  4. NHL WAR Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2018
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    84
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Which part?
     
  5. The Grim Reaper Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    4,125
    Likes Received:
    4,707
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Michigan
    Explain.
     
  6. TomasHertlsRooster Don’t say eye test when you mean points

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    33,281
    Likes Received:
    24,773
    Trophy Points:
    192
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Graduate Student
    Location:
    Fremont, CA
    What’s interesting is that Evolving Hockey’s WAR model has Datsyuk as far and away the best player in the 2007-present era. I wish I had seen more of his prime but I think it’s possible that he truly was one of the greatest players of all time.
     
  7. NHL WAR Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2018
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    84
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Interesting. Do you happen to recall what his best single season WAR was by that model?
     
  8. Chips Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,944
    Likes Received:
    2,515
    Trophy Points:
    126
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    There’s four 50 minute videos on YouTube that have not only scoring, but other plays

    THe volume and consistency of dekes alone, threading passes, counter hits etc was amazing
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  9. TomasHertlsRooster Don’t say eye test when you mean points

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    33,281
    Likes Received:
    24,773
    Trophy Points:
    192
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Graduate Student
    Location:
    Fremont, CA
    7.4 WAR in 2007-2008. The next best season by any player was Connor McDavid with 6.3 WAR in 2016-2017. And then the 3rd best season is Datsyuk with 6.1 WAR in 2008-2009. :laugh:
     
    authentic and NHL WAR like this.
  10. Baxterman Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,939
    Likes Received:
    1,471
    Trophy Points:
    100
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Seeing the players listed and the high WAR values they have on them and then realizing that they are not the top guys from that season makes me question if there is something wrong with the stat being used to rank them.

    I mean you even say it that Ovechkins season should be considered an all timer and it isn’t even close to that. That should raise warning flags.
     
    Khelandros likes this.
  11. Midnight Judges HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    9,794
    Likes Received:
    5,029
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Ovechkin won the Hart, Pearson, Richard, and the Art Ross while outscoring his nearest teammates by 43 points and 39 goals, had 101 primary points, and you think it's obvious that his season wasn't an all-time great season?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  12. GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    8,656
    Likes Received:
    5,066
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    The fact that you personally dislike the player doesn't take away from how dominant that season was. When you score 65 goals, lead the League in points and dominate possession, that is an all-time great season by any objective measure.
     
  13. GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    8,656
    Likes Received:
    5,066
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    Read his posts. He just doesn't like the player.
     
    itsjustsurvival and Andrei79 like this.
  14. NHL WAR Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2018
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    84
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male

    Who do you consider the top forwards that season?
     
    stopclickbait likes this.
  15. Baxterman Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,939
    Likes Received:
    1,471
    Trophy Points:
    100
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    We’ll have to agree to disagree.

    Not just a personal dislike the guy is vastly overrated as a player as well as evidenced by this “evaluation” of his meh season.
     
  16. GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    8,656
    Likes Received:
    5,066
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    How is it a "meh" season? Can you explain without being biased?
     
  17. Baxterman Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,939
    Likes Received:
    1,471
    Trophy Points:
    100
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    I would say:

    Crosby
    Iginla
    Thornton
    Malkin
    Datsyuk
     
  18. Baxterman Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,939
    Likes Received:
    1,471
    Trophy Points:
    100
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    A lot of empty goals with zero defense and a guy that is willing to score a goal, give up 4, lose the game and think it was a positive result.
     
    Datsyukian Deke likes this.
  19. NHL WAR Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2018
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    84
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Gotcha. FWIW, Crosby's 5.3 WAR that season pro-rates to 8.6 over 82 games which would spring board him up to 2nd on the list.
     
    Baxterman likes this.
  20. GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    8,656
    Likes Received:
    5,066
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    Interestingly, even though Ovechkin still scores a lot of goals, I don't think WAR flatters him too much these days. That's likely due to his decline in playmaking and because of the fact that he is no longer able to drive or control the play the way he used to be able to (which influences his advanced statistics).

    But by any objective measure, his 2008 season is one of the best of the century.
     
    NHL WAR likes this.
  21. GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    8,656
    Likes Received:
    5,066
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, ON
    Considering he was +28 and basically carried an average at best team to the playoffs, I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about.
     
    authentic, bh53, P10p and 10 others like this.
  22. Baxterman Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Messages:
    6,939
    Likes Received:
    1,471
    Trophy Points:
    100
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Plus minus is about as useless a stat as there is.
     
  23. Romang67 BitterSwede

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Messages:
    25,479
    Likes Received:
    8,368
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Evanston, IL
    3. 3 empty net goals.

    And of course the Capitals allowed way fewer goals than they scored with Ovechkin on the ice. They scored 150 goals with Ovi on the ice, and allowed 67. Or put another way, Ovi scored 65 goals, and the Capitals allowed 67 with him on the ice.

    That's because it's unsubstantiated nonsense.
     
  24. Midnight Judges HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    9,794
    Likes Received:
    5,029
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    This WAR calculation actually underrates Ovechkin a bit because it utilizes expected goals for.

    Expected goals for assumes every player in the NHL has the same quality of shot and then predicts how many goals should have been scored with them on the ice based on shot distance. Ovechkin routinely leads the NHL in goals and is among the highest in shot distance, which indicates he has a great shot (duh).

    This WAR system also rates power play goals as roughly the same value as ES secondary assists, which is bizarre IMO.
     
  25. Regal Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    18,494
    Likes Received:
    6,434
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 50,000
    Location:
    Vancouver
    How isn't it?

    Edit: Nevermind, you just don't know what you're talking about apparently
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"