Ovechkin, Datsyuk and 2007-08 WAR

[WingsMJN2965]

Detroit would have been way better off playing him to his supposed generational offensive potential if he actually had 120 point potential. Which he didn’t.

Datsyuk's production rate adjusted to Ovechkin's ice time would put him at 115 points in 07/08 and 124 points in 08/09.

Yeeeowch.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

Datsyuk's production rate adjusted to Ovechkin's ice time would put him at 115 points in 07/08 and 124 points in 08/09.

Yeeeowch.

Too bad it doesn't work like that.

 

[DanZ]

Points and Selke voting? Yeah that's not going to convince me, sorry.

Let me guess, intangibles?

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Too bad it doesn't work like that.

Not in the minds of simple folk, certainly.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

Considering he was +28 and basically carried an average at best team to the playoffs, I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about.

This is the same guy that said the Flames have 20 forwards better than James Neal. It is not worth arguing with him.

The aforementioned Ovechkin season was one of the best of all time.

 

[NHL WAR]

Ok interesting yes.

But what is WAR?

What the **** is WAR?

A Winning Statistic

 

[eviohh26]

Awards don't mean ****. I'm pretty sure we could find inferior guys winning the Hart over all the guys you mentioned except Zetterberg (great player but not on the same level as Toews/Bergeron, let alone Datsyuk)

Zetteberg was better than Toews and Bergeron.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

A Winning Statistic

How does it work for goalies ?

 

[Aladyyn]

Let me guess, intangibles?

No, we have pretty tangible evidence that Toews was a fantastic player when Chicago was winning Cups.

 

[stopclickbait]

Derek Roy was a good player, but Vanek and Pominville were much better that year.

Why were Vanek and Pominville that much better than Roy?

 

[Gurglesons]

Why were Vanek and Pominville that much better than Roy?

They drove the line.

Not trying to say Roy wasn’t a top six center, but I’d say a good comparison would be Bryan Little.

He wouldn’t have hit 80 if it was not for Pominville having a career year and Vanek was clearly the best player for Buff once Briere left.

 

[NHL WAR]

How does it work for goalies ?

I don't currently have a model for goalies (or defenseman for that matter), but in the past I used GSAA and minutes played.

 

[stopclickbait]

They drove the line.

Not trying to say Roy wasn’t a top six center, but I’d say a good comparison would be Bryan Little.

He wouldn’t have hit 80 if it was not for Pominville having a career year and Vanek was clearly the best player for Buff once Briere left.

Huh? Do you mean to say Vanek drove Roy?

The 3 together only played 20min total
Pominville only played with Roy for 56 min total he was on a totally different line
Vanek and Roy though did play together most of the season for 784 minutes

They were a good powerplay unit though.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Gurglesons]

Huh? Do you mean to say Vanek drove Roy?

The 3 together only played 20min total
Pominville only played with Roy for 56 min total he was on a totally different line
Vanek and Roy though did play together most of the season for 784 minutes

They were a good powerplay unit though.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

Yeah, Vanek with Roy and Pominville’s career year on the PP.

 

[Turin]

Datsyuk's production rate adjusted to Ovechkin's ice time would put him at 115 points in 07/08 and 124 points in 08/09.

Yeeeowch.

Wow. You believe that’s how it works?

 

[wetcoast]

Wow. You believe that’s how it works?

It doesn't work that way but there has to be some acknowledgment for TOI advantages and defensive play?

WAR is a baseball metric where stats can be isolated for players.

The hitter faces the pitcher it's a one on one measurement in hockey it's a lot more fluid with 10 position players all poised to switch from offense to defense at the drop of a hat.

It doesn't translate as well in a fluid game where offense/defense can happen at the same time for any said player.

Ovechkin had an awesome season, his best in fact but Datsyuk' season gets criminally underrated.

The fact that Datsyuk was 9th in Hart voting that year was an still is a complete joke.

 

[Turin]

It doesn't work that way but there has to be some acknowledgment for TOI advantages and defensive play?

WAR is a baseball metric where stats can be isolated for players.

The hitter faces the pitcher it's a one on one measurement in hockey it's a lot more fluid with 10 position players all poised to switch from offense to defense at the drop of a hat.

It doesn't translate as well in a fluid game where offense/defense can happen at the same time for any said player.

Ovechkin had an awesome season, his best in fact but Datsyuk' season gets criminally underrated.

The fact that Datsyuk was 9th in Hart voting that year was an still is a complete joke.

Datsyuk was very, very good and I have no problem at all with people putting him around the top of players in 2008 and 2009. I do think it’s ridiculous how people overcompensate for the media’s lack of hype for him at the time, when the entire internet and hockey fandom at large knew he was sick. To say things like his defensive play was so good he sacrificed 20% of his entire production, or that if he just played the same amount of minutes he’d surpass the generational offensive guys like Geno and OV.. that’s just not how it works and you start to needlessly overrate just how good he was when he was obviously great already.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The fact that Datsyuk was 9th in Hart voting that year was an still is a complete joke.

It might be due to vote splitting. Detroit had three players in the top ten in Hart voting that year. The voters didn't seem sure whether Lidstrom, Datsyuk or Zetterberg was actually most valuable.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Datsyuk spent between 54-64% of his ice time in 07-08 with Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Rafalski, and Holmstrom. It's hard to find a more advantageous situation than that.

 

[wetcoast]

Datsyuk was very, very good and I have no problem at all with people putting him around the top of players in 2008 and 2009. I do think it’s ridiculous how people overcompensate for the media’s lack of hype for him at the time, when the entire internet and hockey fandom at large knew he was sick. To say things like his defensive play was so good he sacrificed 20% of his entire production, or that if he just played the same amount of minutes he’d surpass the generational offensive guys like Geno and OV.. that’s just not how it works and you start to needlessly overrate just how good he was when he was obviously great already.

We will never know but to finish 4th in scoring 2 years in a row while winning the Selke both years is all time elite plain and simple.

Part of the reason that Ovechkin had such a great peak 3 seasons is because of the ice time and focus on total offense, along with all time talent and drive of course.

 

[Aceboogie]

Seeing the players listed and the high WAR values they have on them and then realizing that they are not the top guys from that season makes me question if there is something wrong with the stat being used to rank them.

I mean you even say it that Ovechkins season should be considered an all timer and it isn’t even close to that. That should raise warning flags.

Maybe something is wrong is your evaluation

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Datsyuk didn't "sacrifice" anything. His offense and defense helped the Red Wings win games.

 

[The Macho King]

WAR is not a real stat. Hockey isn't baseball.

 

[NHL WAR]

Hockey isn't baseball.

On behalf of the entire forum, I would like to thank you for clearing that up. I've been confused ever since:

 

[Aladyyn]

WAR is not a real stat. Hockey isn't baseball.

So what it isn't baseball? The concept applies to any sport.