Out of Town Thread Part XXIII

[LaP]

Nikita Scherbak a critiqué Michel Therrien, Marc Bergevin et le Canadien en Russie


Pretty interesting what do you guys think?

Don't think there's any jaw dropping revelation in this. We all know MT is a bad coach and a terrible individual. It's been confirmed by a couple of person already. Well all know the current management doesn't seem to particularly like Russian players. People can believe the great Russian purge was just a coincidence but honestly you can also believe in fairy tales ...

 

[Toene]

Nothing that we dont already know to be true about Therrien considered it was all public on 24CH.

Therrien and Lefebvre were two of the worst coaches for young players in the NHL. Maybe it was Scherbak. But when everyone they touched turned to ****. The circumstantial evidence is compelling.

Lot of our players had their best offensive seasons with Therrien. I hate the guy and think he's beyond dumb, but I won't say that Julien, while more human and tolerant, and way more structured, is the one to have delivered the best results.

Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Markov, Galchenyuk, Eller, are many had their best season under MT. Now, let me be clear, this is not me praising Therrien. The players may very well have performed despite him.

My point is when you put this next to CJ's own body of work, we didnt get that much of an upgrade. I hope Julien retires soon and Ducharme takes over eventually.

 

[LaP]

blah blah... kid doesn't make the NHL so he blames his coach... I've heard this before... maybe it is that very attitude that kept him from making it in the first place.

This coach has been blamed by Briere too who was a seasoned vet. Honestly does people still need any proof MT sucked *** as a coach????

 

[WeThreeKings]

Scherbak also couldn’t cut it in LA, he is simply not an nhl level player

This logic is used all the time but it's not always so cut and dry.

If you put salt instead of sugar into the cake batter, no matter what you do after that, you can't salvage the cake. So when Therrien and Lefebvre f***ed up Scherbaks development, there's not much LA can do after he's spoiled.

 

[LaP]

Hoping Romanov won't take that seriously.

As long as he's not playing the Russian way and speak English properly he should be safe. If not he'll be shipped out of town as fast as Sergachev was.

 

[LaP]

This logic is used all the time but it's not always so cut and dry.

If you put salt instead of sugar into the cake batter, no matter what you do after that, you can't salvage the cake. So when Therrien and Lefebvre ****ed up Scherbaks development, there's not much LA can do after he's spoiled.

There's nothing he said we did not already know. He's basically confirming things we already knew. Him being a bad hockey player doesn't mean anything. Anyway the great Willie Desjardins is coaching in the WHL this season. MT will be assistant mostly because his good friend gave him a job. He would still be home making pancakes without AV.

 

[Mrb1p]

My buddy and I went to Detroit to catch a Wings/Habs game during the Joe's last year. Cool experience, but the arena itself was an archaic piece of crap. Looked like something from the 1940s, even though it was built only 40 years ago.

Oh, I thought it was mych older than that. It was built in the late 70s?

 

[1909]

There's nothing he said we did not already know. He's basically confirming things we already knew. Him being a bad hockey player doesn't mean anything. Anyway the great Willie Desjardins is coaching in the WHL this season. MT will be assistant mostly because his good friend gave him a job. He would still be home making pancakes without AV.

Most headcoaches are hiring "friends" as assistant coaches, anyway.

 

[Wats]

blah blah... kid doesn't make the NHL so he blames his coach... I've heard this before... maybe it is that very attitude that kept him from making it in the first place.

Yeah I mean look at all the amazing development stories we've seen from that time period:

1.

 

[417]

Don't think there's any jaw dropping revelation in this. We all know MT is a bad coach and a terrible individual. It's been confirmed by a couple of person already. Well all know the current management doesn't seem to particularly like Russian players. People can believe the great Russian purge was just a coincidence but honestly you can also believe in fairy tales ...

That's not exclusive to the Montreal Canadiens.

There are teams who, without any scruples, do not draft/trade/sign Russian players.

This has long been accepted in NHL culture...

 

[Andrei79]

I like how people aren't trying to actually ask questions about how development was under Therrien/Lefebvre, but rather just marginalize Scherbaks opinion as much as possible. It pretty much kills any possible discussion about what happened there. The same can be said about comments like "he wasn't mentally tough enough", they're just low end justifications that prevent any sort of self reflection.

We have years of players saying similar things about Therrien. The real issues here are two fold: how can anyone reading about his coaching style think " yeah, this is good for young players" and how this GM enabled him for so many years.

 

[1909]

Yeah I mean look at all the amazing development stories we've seen from that time period:

1.

"amazing" drafts too, thanks to TT !

 

[Andrei79]

That's not exclusive to the Montreal Canadiens.

There are teams who, without any scruples, do not draft/trade/sign Russian players.

This has long been accepted in NHL culture...

Dumb teams tend to do this. The Red Wings and Capitals fortunately didn't mind. Actually, neither the Blues or the Capitals win their cups if a bunch of teams werent russophobe.

 

[417]

This logic is used all the time but it's not always so cut and dry.

If you put salt instead of sugar into the cake batter, no matter what you do after that, you can't salvage the cake. So when Therrien and Lefebvre ****ed up Scherbaks development, there's not much LA can do after he's spoiled.

Nikita Scherbak was a bad draft pick.

Sometimes, it's just that.

 

[MXD]

I like how people aren't trying to actually ask questions about how development was under Therrien/Lefebvre, but rather just marginalize Scherbaks opinion as much as possible. It pretty much kills any possible discussion about what happened there. The same can be said about comments like "he wasn't mentally tough enough", they're just low end justifications that prevent any sort of self reflection.

We have years of players saying similar things about Therrien. The real issues here are two fold: how can anyone reading about his coaching style think " yeah, this is good for young players" and how this GM enabled him for so many years.

I don't see why there has to be a discussion on this.

A player who didn't have quite what's needed to succeed at this level didn't succeed, and a terrible talent developper made sure a miracle didn't happen.

It seems to me that, if you can't acknowledge one, you probably shouldn't discuss the other.

 

[417]

Dumb teams tend to do this. The Red Wings and Capitals fortunately didn't mind. Actually, neither the Blues or the Capitals win their cups if a bunch of teams werent russophobe.

Yeah I wasn't endorsing that practice, just saying, I'm not personally surprised to read those comments from Scherbak and I also wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

Xenophobia is a part of the culture of hockey. Hell, it's often celebrated.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Bergevin signed Radulov, took a chance on Semin, drafted Scherbak/Sergachev in the first round and rumors were he wanted Emelin back after Vegas claimed him in the expansion draft.

Surprised no one talks about the guy who's behind the bench when bringing up the "Russian purge" considering we've got rid of all the Russian players after he came here and the only Russian he had in Boston was Khoklachev who played 8 games total in 3 years.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Nikita Scherbak was a bad draft pick.

Sometimes, it's just that.

He wasn't. He was a 25th overall pick with a lot of offensive tools, a good skating stride and a good frame. The percentage of late 1st round players who make it aren't that high.

Timmins didn't forget how to draft for this period where every major prospect when to the AHL and completely died with Lefebvre.

Would Scherbak still bust with someone else? We'll never know. But the idea that because someone didn't make it somewhere else immediately after doesn't hold any weight in an argument about whether or not a player was ruined by bad development or they weren't a good pick. Once the critical development years are mismanaged, there's not much you can do to salvage the product.

I would also like to add in Scherbak's case that the best he looked in pro camps were immediately after his draft and his second year.. in his AHL debut years, he looked worse.

 

[417]

He wasn't. He was a 25th overall pick with a lot of offensive tools, a good skating stride and a good frame. The percentage of late 1st round players who make it aren't that high.

That's kind of my point.

Timmins didn't forget how to draft for this period where every major prospect when to the AHL and completely died with Lefebvre.

Actually I do think Timmins, whether by his own volition or direction from management, did go through a period where he struggled with draft picks.

The 2008 to 2014 years give or take weren't very successful for him and the organization, whether it's because of a lack of picks or bad drafting

would Scherbak still bust with someone else? We'll never know. But the idea that because someone didn't make it somewhere else immediately after doesn't hold any weight in an argument about whether or not a player was ruined by bad development or they weren't a good pick. Once the critical development years are mismanaged, there's not much you can do to salvage the product.

But this assumes that EVERY player drafted IS "developable".

Which we all know, isn't the case.

 

[Andrei79]

Nikita Scherbak was a bad draft pick.

Sometimes, it's just that.

Well, maybe he was. But, he had a good D+1 season followed by injury issues. His adaptation to the pro game wasn't easy, but its compounded by the fact there were some weird decisions made like putting him at center coming back from injury. Compared to other WHL picks, he had good production and his 30 points in 26 games were really good. That's where you wonder if things couldnt have been different.

Darren Dietz, for example, was very well thought of on this board, though he needed work on some technical skills. He flamed out under Lefebvre and is now one of the better KHL players after only his 2nd season there. It just has to make you think what would be different with better skills coaches, more emphasis on offense, better AHL coaching, etc. Seems like there were a lot of development failures in recent years and many players showing some promise eventually flaming out hard.

Yeah I wasn't endorsing that practice, just saying, I'm not personally surprised to read those comments from Scherbak and I also wouldn't be surprised if it's true.

Its part of the culture of hockey.

Yeah, I know, I was more or less following up on what you were saying. Teams, not just in hockey, deliberately prevent themselves from being better for reasons that have nothing to do with the sport.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

This logic is used all the time but it's not always so cut and dry.

If you put salt instead of sugar into the cake batter, no matter what you do after that, you can't salvage the cake. So when Therrien and Lefebvre ****ed up Scherbaks development, there's not much LA can do after he's spoiled.

I'd say Julien ****ed up Scherbak more than Therrien did given he played minimal games for the chainsmoker.

Our season was over in 2017-2018 and instead of playing Scherbak in the top 6 to end the last couple months of the year to see what he's got he played him on a line with Logan Shaw as his centre, where any player would show nothing offensively.

 

[Andrei79]

I don't see why there has to be a discussion on this.

A player who didn't have quite what's needed to succeed at this level didn't succeed, and a terrible talent developper made sure a miracle didn't happen.

It seems to me that, if you can't acknowledge one, you probably shouldn't discuss the other.

Interesting that your answer to what I'm describing is exactly what I'm describing.

If a player fails, it means he didn't have what it takes. Pretty much end of story. Which basically means there's no possible discussion on the topic. Good for you if you think like this, but I'd rather have people in management who dont.

What I'm saying here is that asking whether Scherbak might have had been an NHLer is a legitimate question in itself.

 

[WeThreeKings]

That's kind of my point.


Actually I do think Timmins, whether by his own volition or direction from management, did go through a period where he struggled with draft picks.

The 2008 to 2014 years give or take weren't very successful for him and the organization, whether it's because of a lack of picks or bad drafting


But this assumes that EVERY player drafted IS "developable".

Which we all know, isn't the case.

All my point is, taking the player completely out of the picture.

Just because a prospect doesn't make it in another organization isn't an exoneration for his development. It doesn't mean that his development wasn't ruined or the player wasn't mishandled.

You will never know because we can't rewrite history. But I just hate the posts that use it as vindication for Therrien and Lefebvre when their track record wasn't very good.

In the end, Lefebvre and Therrien were fired for lack of results and Scherbak is someone they didn't get results out of. I don't think the Kings games have any value at all in the debate.

 

[Lshap]

Oh, I thought it was mych older than that. It was built in the late 70s?

Yeah, the Joe Louis Arena was built in 1979. The Red Wings' real history happened at the Detroit Olympia, which lasted from 1927 to 1979, and is where the great Howe/Lindsay/Delvecchio teams played. At least the Joe can brag about the Lidstrom/Yzerman era.

 

[417]

Well, maybe he was. But, he had a good D+1 season followed by injury issues. His adaptation to the pro game wasn't easy, but its compounded by the fact there were some weird decisions made like putting him at center coming back from injury. Compared to other WHL picks, he had good production and his 30 points in 26 games were really good. That's where you wonder if things couldnt have been different.

How many players coached and developed by Kevin Constantine have gone on to have success in the NHL?

From what I understand, he's more about winning in the WHL, then he is about developing

So is it possible that Scherbak's development may have been compromised before he even got to the NHL?

Darren Dietz, for example, was very well thought of on this board, though he needed work on some technical skills. He flamed out under Lefebvre and is now one of the better KHL players after only his 2nd season there. It just has to make you think what would be different with better skills coaches, more emphasis on offense, better AHL coaching, etc. Seems like there were a lot of development failures in recent years and many players showing some promise eventually flaming out hard.

I agree that this team has had issues with development - but not every player is capable of being developed.

For years I've said that fans have a distorted view of what the AHL is...

Most players who play in the NHL, either bypass the AHL all together or play limited amounts of time in the AHL.

The idea that the AHL is a breeding ground for perspective NHL players, I've never really believed in.

Sure there are examples like Tomas Plekanec...

But there are tons of examples of players who didn't play in the AHL as well.

Yeah, I know, I was more or less following up on what you were saying. Teams, not just in hockey, deliberately prevent themselves from being better for reasons that have nothing to do with the sport.

It's so backwards