Ottawa - Edmonton - Islanders Draft Discussion

[SENSational Sens Fan]

Chances are Ottawa is taking a center in either RNH or Couturier with the trade of Fisher and now Kelly.

 

[prongertheman9]

Honestly I don't care for the % of points that come on the power play. He could score 99% of his points and the PP and still create a lot of value at even strength. RNH has not progressed at creating value at even strength and there's not a significant explanation I see for this. He's top dog on his team and hasn't been injured. He regularly plays with Kudrna and Froese. Also, though he's a good defensive player, he still doesn't play in some heavy defensive system like Brampton was in 08-09 or even Drummondville right now ... also, through 49 games RNH had 0 points at SH, so I wouldn't put too much value in that anyways ...

Also, I don't care much for highlights. What matters most is consistency. I often see people drool over highlight reel goals. I don't care much for that. Consistency is toughest ability to develop for any player. Any player can easily improve on gaining weight, improve on skating, shooting and whatnot, those skills are easy to improve on for players of that caliber. From all I can gather, RNH isn't a consitent producer at even strength and there's no valid explanation for this as of now for me.

Fair game if from what you see you like him, we judge players from different point of views. However, I don't see how a statistical argument can be made to justify having RNH as the top player of this draft ... or even a top 5 player ...

First of all, RNH plays on a line with Kudrna and Persson. Both players are undrafted and quite frankly wouldn't be even close to where they are now in points if it wasn't for RNH. Froese does however play on the first pp unit with RNH and it shows that when RNH has an decent sniper on the ice with him they will produce( Froese first in pp goals, RNH first in pp assists). I think his power-play production is due more to the fact that RNH finally has some high end skill to distribute the puck to than it is the fact that he can't produce at ES. He also played with Willie Coetzee last year who isn't an elite prospect or even drafted but was definitely better than Kudrna and Persson so that is why you are seeing a drop in ES production. I would love to know who Couturier and Lando's regular linemates are in comparison.

Secondly Red Deer is averaging 2.27 goals against a game. 08/09 Brampton Battalion's average allowed was 2.71 and Drummondville is averaging 2.76 a game. Now I haven't watched Drummondville play this year or the Battalion a few years ago so I don't know what kind of systems the team play but I know that you are going strictly off numbers anyways so there they are for you.

To close, the QMJHL is widely known as easily the weakest of the 3 Major Junior leagues in Canada. The numbers this year indicate that the OHL is outscoring the other 2 leagues by a fair margin. In conclusion it is safe to say that if Lando and SC were playing in the WHL their stats would be lower or if RNH played in the other 2 leagues his stats would be higher.

 

[Macch]

Chances are Ottawa is taking a center in either RNH or Couturier with the trade of Fisher and now Kelly.

I really doubt that Fisher or Kelly would have had an influence on who the Sens picked

 

[MatthewT]

I really doubt that Fisher or Kelly would have had an influence on who the Sens picked

agree, it would be different if we dealt Spezza

 

[Mathletic]

First of all, RNH plays on a line with Kudrna and Persson. Both players are undrafted and quite frankly wouldn't be even close to where they are now in points if it wasn't for RNH. Froese does however play on the first pp unit with RNH and it shows that when RNH has an decent sniper on the ice with him they will produce( Froese first in pp goals, RNH first in pp assists). I think his power-play production is due more to the fact that RNH finally has some high end skill to distribute the puck to than it is the fact that he can't produce at ES. He also played with Willie Coetzee last year who isn't an elite prospect or even drafted but was definitely better than Kudrna and Persson so that is why you are seeing a drop in ES production. I would love to know who Couturier and Lando's regular linemates are in comparison.

Secondly Red Deer is averaging 2.27 goals against a game. 08/09 Brampton Battalion's average allowed was 2.71 and Drummondville is averaging 2.76 a game. Now I haven't watched Drummondville play this year or the Battalion a few years ago so I don't know what kind of systems the team play but I know that you are going strictly off numbers anyways so there they are for you.

To close, the QMJHL is widely known as easily the weakest of the 3 Major Junior leagues in Canada. The numbers this year indicate that the OHL is outscoring the other 2 leagues by a fair margin. In conclusion it is safe to say that if Lando and SC were playing in the WHL their stats would be lower or if RNH played in the other 2 leagues his stats would be higher.

They may not have NHL future but they're still decent junior players. Same for Landeskog who'll play with Akeson, Tipoff and so on or Couturier with Vachon and Palat. The problem is, at even strength RNH isn't outscoring them. I can understand he makes them better on the PP but. I know I'm repeating myself but my bug with RNH is his even strength production. Even strength production is the main predictor of NHL offensive success. Also, Landeskog, Couturier are outproducing their teammates at even strength by quite a bit. I don't know why RNH couldn't do the same, especially since he's said to be a superior offensive talent projected to go n'1 by a lot of people.

Btw, my definition of production and value isn't the same as raw production. You may compare raw numbers but it doesn't say much as far as I'm concerned. For instance, Eberle had fine but not outstanding even strength numbers in 08 but created a lot of production and value.

As for the offense-defense balance of teams, it's not so much raw offensive numbers but rather how much was produced on offense vs defense. Even though Brampton and Drummondville are outscoring Red Deer, they still managed to create a lot more value defensively ... that is removing the goalie's production from the total production of the defense ...

You may think the Q is weaker, but it really isn't. A weaker league would be an American High School compared to a CHL league. The QMJHL is a fine league. It's not because a league doesn't produce x type of player in the NHL that the league is a weak. A 20 year old player with no NHL future is a tougher opponent than a 17 year old with potential. It may not be fun to scout that 20 year old guy but I wouldn't rule the QMJHL as a weaker league by any means. Furthermore, I wouldn't extrapolate Couturier's stats to saying that his production would decrease. Drummondville is as close as it gets to a stereotyped WHL team. They play a solid overall game. Place Couturier on a team that plays with basically 4 forwards like Portland and I bet his numbers go up.

 

[STHLM*]

RNH is really overrated.

First of all, people in here give critique to Lando for his goalscoring. Even it's garbage goals it's goals. You should worry about RNH lack of goalscoring instead. Lando has 7 goals more than RNH in 18 games less. That's a huge difference. If Lando hasn' been injured then the difference should be even bigger. In what way has RNH better offensive than Lando? The most of RNH points are assists in PP. That's not that impressive. Some people say RNH makes his teammates better. I would rather say that about Lando. Look at Akeson's stats. He dropped in the scoring race when Lando was out. Now he's back in the top. Even Murphy seems to have dropped when Lando was out.

Lando is a great goascorer, the best one of the big 3, he has great defensive too. He hits, he make the opponent to take penalties. He fights.

Lando is great in all part of his game. All I hear about RNH is his offensive skills which I think are overrated. If the most points are assists in PP already now how will this translate to NHL then? Why I don't hear anything about the rest of RNH game? his skating, defensive, hits, fights, face offs? He as center should have better defensive than Lando as a wing.

Lando he the prospect I can see captain a Stanley cup winner in the future. I can't say the same for RNH.

Someone here Said OHL outscore the other leagues by far. What I know OHL is also the strongest league. If so it's ridiculous to bash Lando to not be in top 20 in the OHL scoring. If WHL is that weak in scoring then why RNH not dominate the scoring race? He shouldn't have any competition in the scoring race? RNH shouldn't do better in OHL than Lando.

 

[STHLM*]

that is, if Larsson can live up to expectations...which is really tough to figure out from d-men...the fact that very few impact defensemen come in the top 5 picks is a little concerning to me

cause if Larsson ends up being a Jovanovski, Zyuzin or Hamrlik while RNH or Couturier end up being Staal, Toews, or Backstrom I'll be choked that the Oilers pick Larsson

what a ridiculous argument. What if RNH and SC ends up being Daigle or Patrik Stefan...

The teams should draft by BPA not by if they think the player will be a bust or not because no one knows that.

 

[SDig14]

RNH is really overrated.

First of all, people in here give critique to Lando for his goalscoring. Even it's garbage goals it's goals. You should worry about RNH lack of goalscoring instead. Lando has 7 goals more than RNH in 18 games less. That's a huge difference. If Lando hasn' been injured then the difference should be even bigger. In what way has RNH better offensive than Lando? The most of RNH points are assists in PP. That's not that impressive. Some people say RNH makes his teammates better. I would rather say that about Lando. Look at Akeson's stats. He dropped in the scoring race when Lando was out. Now he's back in the top. Even Murphy seems to have dropped when Lando was out.

Lando is a great goascorer, the best one of the big 3, he has great defensive too. He hits, he make the opponent to take penalties. He fights.

Lando is great in all part of his game. All I hear about RNH is his offensive skills which I think are overrated. If the most points are assists in PP already now how will this translate to NHL then? Why I don't hear anything about the rest of RNH game? his skating, defensive, hits, fights, face offs? He as center should have better defensive than Lando as a wing.

Lando he the prospect I can see captain a Stanley cup winner in the future. I can't say the same for RNH.

Someone here Said OHL outscore the other leagues by far. What I know OHL is also the strongest league. If so it's ridiculous to bash Lando to not be in top 20 in the OHL scoring. If WHL is that weak in scoring then why RNH not dominate the scoring race? He shouldn't have any competition in the scoring race? RNH shouldn't do better in OHL than Lando.

Go watch him play. There are so many things wrong in here, but I have written novels in other threads. If you want to know about RNH's overall game and why is an amazing talent, then simply search the threads and have a read or buy some games and have a viewing of him.

 

[PortlandWinterHawks]

I stop listening to people who bring up stats and don't actually players play and make projections. There are reasons why some players even with high point totals go third round and some players with low point totals go high (Tyler Myers)

 

[benjiv1]

RNH is really overrated.

First of all, people in here give critique to Lando for his goalscoring. Even it's garbage goals it's goals. You should worry about RNH lack of goalscoring instead. Lando has 7 goals more than RNH in 18 games less. That's a huge difference. If Lando hasn' been injured then the difference should be even bigger. In what way has RNH better offensive than Lando? The most of RNH points are assists in PP. That's not that impressive. Some people say RNH makes his teammates better. I would rather say that about Lando. Look at Akeson's stats. He dropped in the scoring race when Lando was out. Now he's back in the top. Even Murphy seems to have dropped when Lando was out.

Lando is a great goascorer, the best one of the big 3, he has great defensive too. He hits, he make the opponent to take penalties. He fights.

Lando is great in all part of his game. All I hear about RNH is his offensive skills which I think are overrated. If the most points are assists in PP already now how will this translate to NHL then? Why I don't hear anything about the rest of RNH game? his skating, defensive, hits, fights, face offs? He as center should have better defensive than Lando as a wing.

Lando he the prospect I can see captain a Stanley cup winner in the future. I can't say the same for RNH.

Someone here Said OHL outscore the other leagues by far. What I know OHL is also the strongest league. If so it's ridiculous to bash Lando to not be in top 20 in the OHL scoring. If WHL is that weak in scoring then why RNH not dominate the scoring race? He shouldn't have any competition in the scoring race? RNH shouldn't do better in OHL than Lando.

Goals come easier in the OHL vs WHL.

Landeskog is also bigger than a lot of players in the OHL, so he is able to use his size to produce. When he enters the NHL his size will almost be a non factor, as he will no longer be stronger than the average NHL'er.

In contrast, RNH is able to produce in a tighter (defensivley) league, whilest having no size advantage vs any players in the league, with arguably less support.

Also, RNH and Landeskog are completely different players, one is a playmaker while the other is a powerforward, of course Landeskog is going to have more goals when RNH thinks pass first.

IMO the safer choice at the draft is Landeskog, but if you want to swing for the fences you go for RNH.

 

[prongertheman9]

RNH is really overrated.

First of all, people in here give critique to Lando for his goalscoring. Even it's garbage goals it's goals. You should worry about RNH lack of goalscoring instead. Lando has 7 goals more than RNH in 18 games less. That's a huge difference. If Lando hasn' been injured then the difference should be even bigger. In what way has RNH better offensive than Lando? The most of RNH points are assists in PP. That's not that impressive. Some people say RNH makes his teammates better. I would rather say that about Lando. Look at Akeson's stats. He dropped in the scoring race when Lando was out. Now he's back in the top. Even Murphy seems to have dropped when Lando was out.

Lando is a great goascorer, the best one of the big 3, he has great defensive too. He hits, he make the opponent to take penalties. He fights.

Lando is great in all part of his game. All I hear about RNH is his offensive skills which I think are overrated. If the most points are assists in PP already now how will this translate to NHL then? Why I don't hear anything about the rest of RNH game? his skating, defensive, hits, fights, face offs? He as center should have better defensive than Lando as a wing.

Lando he the prospect I can see captain a Stanley cup winner in the future. I can't say the same for RNH.

Someone here Said OHL outscore the other leagues by far. What I know OHL is also the strongest league. If so it's ridiculous to bash Lando to not be in top 20 in the OHL scoring. If WHL is that weak in scoring then why RNH not dominate the scoring race? He shouldn't have any competition in the scoring race? RNH shouldn't do better in OHL than Lando.

I don't know which is worse here, your grammar or your point of view!

 

[40oz]

RNH is really overrated.

First of all, people in here give critique to Lando for his goalscoring. Even it's garbage goals it's goals. You should worry about RNH lack of goalscoring instead. Lando has 7 goals more than RNH in 18 games less. That's a huge difference. If Lando hasn' been injured then the difference should be even bigger. In what way has RNH better offensive than Lando? The most of RNH points are assists in PP. That's not that impressive. Some people say RNH makes his teammates better. I would rather say that about Lando. Look at Akeson's stats. He dropped in the scoring race when Lando was out. Now he's back in the top. Even Murphy seems to have dropped when Lando was out.

Lando is a great goascorer, the best one of the big 3, he has great defensive too. He hits, he make the opponent to take penalties. He fights.

Lando is great in all part of his game. All I hear about RNH is his offensive skills which I think are overrated. If the most points are assists in PP already now how will this translate to NHL then? Why I don't hear anything about the rest of RNH game? his skating, defensive, hits, fights, face offs? He as center should have better defensive than Lando as a wing.

Lando he the prospect I can see captain a Stanley cup winner in the future. I can't say the same for RNH.

Someone here Said OHL outscore the other leagues by far. What I know OHL is also the strongest league. If so it's ridiculous to bash Lando to not be in top 20 in the OHL scoring. If WHL is that weak in scoring then why RNH not dominate the scoring race? He shouldn't have any competition in the scoring race? RNH shouldn't do better in OHL than Lando.

Lando!

 

[Mathletic]

I stop listening to people who bring up stats and don't actually players play and make projections. There are reasons why some players even with high point totals go third round and some players with low point totals go high (Tyler Myers)

if you so decide that Myers was unprojectable ... I disagree but anyways ... there's more to it than just straight points. Especially for defensemen. Points would come fairly far in the equation in order to evaluate d-men. Also, last time I checked, Nugent-Hopkins had a fairly high total of points. Why am I not a huge fan?

just for fun, did you project any of them in their draft year? just to name a few

Jamie Benn, David Booth, Shea Weber, Cody Franson, Duncan Keith, Henrik Lundqvist, Jan Hejda, Joe Pavelski, Tobias Enstrom, Dustin Byfuglien, Johan Franzen, Daniel Winnik, Mark Streit, Niklas Hjalmarsson, Darren, Helm, Cal Clutterbuck, Alec Martinez?

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Meh, I'd rather RNH over Larsson for pretty much any team in the league... I've never been high on Larsson - but it has nothing to do with the fact he's Swedish.

I still would pick him #2 over Couturier.

Even better.

Here's hoping Larsson drops to 3 or 4!

 

[Mathletic]

Landeskog is also bigger than a lot of players in the OHL, so he is able to use his size to produce. When he enters the NHL his size will almost be a non factor, as he will no longer be stronger than the average NHL'er.

In contrast, RNH is able to produce in a tighter (defensivley) league, whilest having no size advantage vs any players in the league, with arguably less support.

Landeskog is what 205?

let's take a look at recent draft picks at about that weight as they entered the draft

Matt Duchene 200, Ryan O'Reilly 200, Eric Tangradi 207, Jordan Staal 215, Bobby Ryan 219, Wolski 200, Nathan Horton 201, Jordan Caron 202, Luke Adam 203, James Sheppard 204, Alex Bourret 209, Brayden Schenn 198, Kyle Beach 203, Peter Mueller 205, Milan Lucic 204, Andrew Ladd 200, Ryan Getzlaf 195, Colin Wilson 215, Jonathan Toews 195, Paul Stastny 201, Drew Stafford 202, David Booth 212, JVR 200, Jack Skille 198, Ryan Stoa 200, Pacioretty 203, Kyle Okposo 195, Zajac 205, Kreider 201, Hanowski 198, Charlie Coyle 202

for the most part their play has translated really well at the next level. Either from CHL to NHL or High School to NCAA and whatnot.

Feel free to add any names you like, it's not meant to be an exhaustive survey ... for as long as you don't name players like Brian Boyle at 244 ...

 

[Hockify]

Ottawa - Edmonton - Islanders Draft Discussion

Devils should be in this list too, they have been down there most of the season.

 

[Very Stable Genius]

lol the hype RNH is getting from us sens fans is ridiculous. Its getting obsessive in fact. I'm sure he will be a good player, but you don't have to go out of your way to bash other equal prospects and ignore RNH's flaws. Who knows what the sens are going to do? Just because the have holes at the forward/centre doesn't mean you should expect we are taking one. Just chillax, let the season play out and let the sens scouts do their jobs and they will select who they think is the best player available.

 

[YNWA14]

Landeskog is what 205?

let's take a look at recent draft picks at about that weight as they entered the draft

Matt Duchene 200, Ryan O'Reilly 200, Eric Tangradi 207, Jordan Staal 215, Bobby Ryan 219, Wolski 200, Nathan Horton 201, Jordan Caron 202, Luke Adam 203, James Sheppard 204, Alex Bourret 209, Brayden Schenn 198, Kyle Beach 203, Peter Mueller 205, Milan Lucic 204, Andrew Ladd 200, Ryan Getzlaf 195, Colin Wilson 215, Jonathan Toews 195, Paul Stastny 201, Drew Stafford 202, David Booth 212, JVR 200, Jack Skille 198, Ryan Stoa 200, Pacioretty 203, Kyle Okposo 195, Zajac 205, Kreider 201, Hanowski 198, Charlie Coyle 202

for the most part their play has translated really well at the next level. Either from CHL to NHL or High School to NCAA and whatnot.

Feel free to add any names you like, it's not meant to be an exhaustive survey ... for as long as you don't name players like Brian Boyle at 244 ...

Look at a guy like Mike Richards, who Lando has been compared to. He's smaller and has a similar style of play and it definitely translated well. Saying that he dominated because he's bigger doesn't mean a whole lot. Size isn't everything. He's just a very strong dude.

 

[Dosing]

lol the hype RNH is getting from us sens fans is ridiculous. Its getting obsessive in fact. I'm sure he will be a good player, but you don't have to go out of your way to bash other equal prospects and ignore RNH's flaws. Who knows what the sens are going to do? Just because the have holes at the forward/centre doesn't mean you should expect we are taking one. Just chillax, let the season play out and let the sens scouts do their jobs and they will select who they think is the best player available.

It's only gonna get worse closing in on draftday, get used to it.

 

[YNWA14]

lol the hype RNH is getting from us sens fans is ridiculous. Its getting obsessive in fact. I'm sure he will be a good player, but you don't have to go out of your way to bash other equal prospects and ignore RNH's flaws. Who knows what the sens are going to do? Just because the have holes at the forward/centre doesn't mean you should expect we are taking one. Just chillax, let the season play out and let the sens scouts do their jobs and they will select who they think is the best player available.

This.

I actually feel like I've been attacking RNH because the hype has gotten almost ridiculous. I'm high on everyone in the top 5, including RNH, but seriously it's hard to be high on him with the way he's being portrayed.

 

[Mathletic]

This.

I actually feel like I've been attacking RNH because the hype has gotten almost ridiculous. I'm high on everyone in the top 5, including RNH, but seriously it's hard to be high on him with the way he's being portrayed.

I plead guilty for that as well. It's not like I feel like he's a total bust, far from it.

 

[STHLM*]

I don't know which is worse here, your grammar or your point of view!

iPad is the problem...

 

[NyQuil]

How can producing on the powerplay be seen as a liability?

That's what differentiates a top 3 forward from a top 6 or top 9 forward.

Offensively creative guys can make use of the extra space and put up more production.

Give me the best powerplay producing guy in Juniors, please.

I've seen what a team looks like that works hard and scores gritty goals but can't put the puck in the net with the man advantage, and it 'aint pretty.

 

[STHLM*]

Look at a guy like Mike Richards, who Lando has been compared to. He's smaller and has a similar style of play and it definitely translated well. Saying that he dominated because he's bigger doesn't mean a whole lot. Size isn't everything. He's just a very strong dude.

I agree.

I think it's funny how the RNH lovers are saying the size is a weakness for Lando. If anything, the size is a weakness for RNH. He's small and if he can't do more than all those PP assists in junior level then why should he be better in NHL? In PP RNH get more space. That's why he do those points. At even strength he don't get space.That's his weakness.

Some people should worry about RNH size instead.

 

[Mathletic]

How can producing on the powerplay be seen as a liability?

That's what differentiates a top 3 forward from a top 6 or top 9 forward.

Offensively creative guys can make use of the extra space and put up more production.

Give me the best powerplay producing guy in Juniors, please.

I've seen what a team looks like that works hard and scores gritty goals but can't put the puck in the net with the man advantage, and it 'aint pretty.

fine, here's Robbie Schremp for you, best PP guy in juniors

The problem with Nugent-Hopkins isn't what is, it's what isn't. It doesn't take a genius to understand that PP production is good. What's not so good is lack of production at even strength.