Confirmed with Link: [OTT/MIN] Senators trade a 6th round pick in 2014 for Matt Kassian.

[Wondercarrot]

Matt Carkner didn't even play for the rest of game 2, or in game 3, I fail to see how Carkner taking a regular shift added to the momentum shift in that NYR series. It was the act of pummeling Boyle itself and not his actual playing ablity (Although having Carkner over someone like Orr is way more valuable I will agree)..

Do you remember when McGrattan dropped Domi back in 05-06? Same thing. That fight ended years of Leafs physical dominance over Ottawa and changed the way we played Toronto.

Fighters have their place and you can't argue they change momentum in certain situations. At the very least you have to be happy that we won't have to see Phillips and Wiercioch fighting from now on.

you're having two conversations here and one of them isnt with me.
you're debating with someone else about fighting in hockey, the conversation im having is the value of a UFC fighter on skates vs a guy who takes a regular shift.
A guy who takes a regular shift and provides the same deterrent/creates a fear of revenge etc is a very useful player since he's not disrupting the rest of the team by forcing the juggling of lines throughout a game.

A "Break Glass in case of Emergency" guy who sits on the bench for 58 minutes is not useful and IMO detrimental to team success.
I suppose you can take the position that its better than nothing but barely.
Id trade a lot more to get another Neil, a player who would not just give us the balance people want to be able to respond but also acutally make our team better.

 

[Wondercarrot]

I've never really seen this guy play, but come on! It can't be that bad! it's not like they picked up some Beer league scrub and added him to the lineup..

Some people are acting like this will be Doug Glatt out there.. I'm sure he's nowhere near as bad as some of you are making him out to be...

he'd be a very well spoken Glatt, and if you're going to go Nuclear then get the biggest one.
no idea personally how he plays but to me its telling when a Wild fan comes in and says that he really liked him but the aquisition of Konopka made him expendable.

doesnt that concern you?

 

[Smash88]

he'd be a very well spoken Glatt, and if you're going to go Nuclear then get the biggest one.
no idea personally how he plays but to me its telling when a Wild fan comes in and says that he really liked him but the aquisition of Konopka made him expendable.

doesnt that concern you?

It would concern me if he were coming in here to take a permanent spot, but he's coming here essentially replacing Konopka..

He will most likely be in the pressbox most nights, like Konopka was..

But when he is in the lineup, I'm fairly certain he will be able to hold his own, at least as well as most 4th liners do..

As has been mentioned it's most likely because of the contract situations that he lost out..

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Carkner seems like the perfect enforcer. Can play, and he'll find you, and he will pummel you. Is there a forward version of him?

You are talking about a few years back I think and even then Carks was a 5/6 guy.

Carks paid a huge physical price just making it to the NHL, his knees are done let alone the wear and tear on the rest of his body.

Carks has played only one year close to a full season, since then each season finds him with decreasing playing time.

There are forwards serving in the enforcer role that are adequate fourth line guys, Thornton comes to mind. However Lucic is probably the best player & enforcer currently in the NHL.

 

[SenzZen]

he'd be a very well spoken Glatt, and if you're going to go Nuclear then get the biggest one.
no idea personally how he plays but to me its telling when a Wild fan comes in and says that he really liked him but the aquisition of Konopka made him expendable.

doesnt that concern you?

If Konopka would have signed with us for $575K/year, he'd probably still be here.

 

[Wondercarrot]

If Konopka would have signed with us for $575K/year, he'd probably still be here.

and that would truly suck.

 

[SenzZen]

and that would truly suck.

I'm fine with this trade, but if we could have kept Konopka for what Kassian makes, and kept our 6th round pick- I think even you would agree that we'd be in a better position.

 

[h2]

you're having two conversations here and one of them isnt with me.
you're debating with someone else about fighting in hockey, the conversation im having is the value of a UFC fighter on skates vs a guy who takes a regular shift.
A guy who takes a regular shift and provides the same deterrent/creates a fear of revenge etc is a very useful player since he's not disrupting the rest of the team by forcing the juggling of lines throughout a game.

A "Break Glass in case of Emergency" guy who sits on the bench for 58 minutes is not useful and IMO detrimental to team success.
I suppose you can take the position that its better than nothing but barely.
Id trade a lot more to get another Neil, a player who would not just give us the balance people want to be able to respond but also acutally make our team better.

Actually the conversation was with you the whole time if you look at the dialog that took place. I had an issue with your claim that "Carkner having the ability to play was fairly important" which was you responding to me that Carkner changed momentum in the NYR series.

I was agreeing that it's more ideal to have a heavyweight like Carkner that could play 3rd pairing minutes over someone like Orr on the 4th line for 4min a game. The fact that Carkner could play more than an Orr type enforcer had no effect on the momentum swing in that NYR series when he didn't even play for a large portion of that series. That was my point. The act of pummeling Boyle itself was the momentum change. Which is why I cited the McGrattan-Domi example as another instance when two fringe 4th liners fight and the end result was momentum shifting.

To summarize, I prefer an enforcer like Carkner that can play and fight, but a strict enforcer like Orr/McGrattan are just as effective in shifting momentum when it's needed, it's just not as practical as a Carkner because then you don't need to double shift random players on the 4th line to supplement it. I feel the extra protection and regulating the fighting to Kassian over Phillips and Wiercioch is worth a roster spot and the line shuffling to go with it. Wild fans say Kassian is actually a decent 4th liner, so lets give him a shot as well before we call him a liability.

 

[Wondercarrot]

the funny thing about opinions that people often seem unaware of is that they can also be wrong, often because people base their opinions on less than a clear understanding of the discussion at hand.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Actually the conversation was with you the whole time if you look at the dialog that took place. I had an issue with your claim that "Carkner having the ability to play was fairly important" which was you responding to me that Carkner changed momentum in the NYR series.

I was agreeing that it's more ideal to have a heavyweight like Carkner that could play 3rd pairing minutes over someone like Orr on the 4th line for 4min a game. The fact that Carkner could play more than an Orr type enforcer had no effect on the momentum swing in that NYR series when he didn't even play for a large portion of that series. That was my point. The act of pummeling Boyle itself was the momentum change. Which is why I cited the McGrattan-Domi example as another instance when two fringe 4th liners fight and the end result was momentum shifting.

To summarize, I prefer an enforcer like Carkner that can play and fight, but a strict enforcer like Orr/McGrattan are just as effective in shifting momentum when it's needed, it's just not as practical as a Carkner because then you don't need to double shift random players on the 4th line to supplement it. I feel the extra protection and regulating the fighting to Kassian over Phillips and Wiercioch is worth a roster spot and the line shuffling to go with it. Wild fans say Kassian is actually a decent 4th liner, so lets give him a shot as well before we call him a liability.

I can get with that. kassian has my full support - he's an Ottawa Senator now.

 

[YNWA14]

I'm wondering if all these people ******** on Kassian have even watched him play much? Maybe he has tools that can be used to mould him into a defensive, energy winger that can play 8 - 10 minutes a night while also being the guy that can pound on whoever needs/deserves it. He's not exactly old.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Kassian will be more useful than Daug or Regin. Period. Both of those players brought nothing. No scoring, no fore checking , no hitting, no board work nothing. Matt will bring toughness, hard hitting and fighting skill and that's more than the others bring. You want to talk about a waste of a roster spot, see Regin and Daug.

 

[Tundraman]

I really like Carkner but from a team perspective it's better to have one or more forwards as your regular enforcers. You can easily play 3 lines with minimal disruption but trying to play 5 D especially from early in a game can cause confusion with the pairings and give the other team incentive to play hard against the remaining guys to create mistakes.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Enforcer defenseman gives you more options though. You can have him out with your 1st line of forwards if the other team has its checking line out there.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Kassian will be more useful than Daug or Regin. Period. Both of those players brought nothing. No scoring, no fore checking , no hitting, no board work nothing. Matt will bring toughness, hard hitting and fighting skill and that's more than the others bring. You want to talk about a waste of a roster spot, see Regin and Daug.

The team has the second best PK in the league. Daugavins and Regin have been a big part of that. To say that they have contributed nothing is glossing over the facts at best.

Kassian is more likely to be in the box than he is on the ice during a PK.

If Kassian is going to take anyone's roster spot it should be Stone so that the kid can get quality minutes in Bingo.

 

[Qward]

Play nice with each other or so help me I will turn this thread around!

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I'm fine with this trade, but if we could have kept Konopka for what Kassian makes, and kept our 6th round pick- I think even you would agree that we'd be in a better position.

I'm sure there are some stats that might support this theory, but I'm not convinced.

IMO Kassian is here because of events in games against Toronto, Philly, NYI and Boston.

While Konopka is always a willing combatant, he just isn't in the class of McLaren, Orr, Scott, Lucic, etc. So if Murray wanted a deterent, a player to offset what the other NE teams have, Kassian is a much better solution than Konopka.

There is no point in having a enforcer, regardless of how willing, that just isn't a real threat to lay a beating on someone and change the complexion of the game.

 

[TeamRenzo]

Kassian will be more useful than Daug or Regin. Period. Both of those players brought nothing. No scoring, no fore checking , no hitting, no board work nothing. Matt will bring toughness, hard hitting and fighting skill and that's more than the others bring. You want to talk about a waste of a roster spot, see Regin and Daug.

I disagree on your point on K-Daug. He does bring something to the team, he is good on the PK and brings great energy. I think he is a good fit on our 4th line.

 

[Tundraman]

We are still short 1 enforcer from last year. I wonder if Bryan Murray is done shopping?

 

[aragorn]

We are still short 1 enforcer from last year. I wonder if Bryan Murray is done shopping?

George Parros is available & maybe they could bring up Jessiman

Kassian - Jessiman - Parros is a line I would like to see against the stinking Leafs ... with Sdao & Gryba on defence.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

The team has the second best PK in the league. Daugavins and Regin have been a big part of that. To say that they have contributed nothing is glossing over the facts at best.

Kassian is more likely to be in the box than he is on the ice during a PK.

If Kassian is going to take anyone's roster spot it should be Stone so that the kid can get quality minutes in Bingo.

To suggest Regin has been a big part of anything is a stretch.

Regin is 6th in SH TOI amongst Sens forwards and on a per game average he is 9th.

Daugavin has definitely become one of MacLean's lead guys on the PK, so if KD sits it would seem JOB will just get more PK time.

KD has already sat out 9 games and the PK didn't collapse, so why assume it might because Kassian joined the team?

The fact is KD sits because he is the worse 5 on 5 defensive player the Sens have on their roster and doesn't produce anything to offset this.

I like KD, he is a willing to sacrifice himself for the team, great character guy, but the fact is he is just an average 4th liner.

As far as Kassian, he isn't a dumb penalty machine and when he does get penalties 90% of the time he isn't going to the box alone.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

George Parros is available & maybe they could bring up Jessiman

Kassian - Jessiman - Parros is a line I would like to see against the stinking Leafs ... with Sdao & Gryba on defence.

I would love to see Carlyle's face if MacLean started these guys against the Bozak, Kessel line.

Serioulsy I wouldn't mind if Parros was brought in by Murray. Maybe a deal for Fleischmann and Parros.

 

[YNWA14]

The team has the second best PK in the league. Daugavins and Regin have been a big part of that. To say that they have contributed nothing is glossing over the facts at best.

Kassian is more likely to be in the box than he is on the ice during a PK.

If Kassian is going to take anyone's roster spot it should be Stone so that the kid can get quality minutes in Bingo.

Regin and Daugavins have only played more TOI/game than Stone and Grant. Kassian is a big guy, and there has to have been a reason at the time he was taken in the 2nd round of the draft. I'm sure he could be moulded into a PK specialist. He can bring more to the table than those two.

 

[aragorn]

I would love to see Carlyle's face if MacLean started these guys against the Bozak, Kessel line.

Serioulsy I wouldn't mind if Parros was brought in by Murray. Maybe a deal for Fleischmann and Parros.

This is exactly what I wanted Murray to do before Kassian but I would still do it. Fleischmann is only 29 yrs old I think & we could re-sign him at the end of the season for a few more yrs. Even if Parros has another yr on his contract he could be the 23rd player for this team next season along with Kassian just in certain games both would be under $2 mil. Very cheap & would be a deterant against A-Hole teams.

I would think a deal that maybe includes Puempel plus ... we have some 2nd tier prospects/players that we could do without. Regin, Condra, Daugavins, Da Costa, Pageau, Prince, Petersson, Filatov, Claesson & maybe even Hoffman. I wonder if Edmonton is ready yet to trade Petry to Ottawa for Bishop straight up?

Kassian, Parros, Petry & Fleischmann would be welcome additions to this young team for this yr & next.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

you're having two conversations here and one of them isnt with me.
you're debating with someone else about fighting in hockey, the conversation im having is the value of a UFC fighter on skates vs a guy who takes a regular shift.
A guy who takes a regular shift and provides the same deterrent/creates a fear of revenge etc is a very useful player since he's not disrupting the rest of the team by forcing the juggling of lines throughout a game.

A "Break Glass in case of Emergency" guy who sits on the bench for 58 minutes is not useful and IMO detrimental to team success.
I suppose you can take the position that its better than nothing but barely.
Id trade a lot more to get another Neil, a player who would not just give us the balance people want to be able to respond but also acutally make our team better.

Agree in principle, but a 4th liner sitting in the penalty box or on the bench really has little effect on the lines considering the average 4th line player plays 5-7 minutes a game 5 on 5.

How many other Neil's are there and what are do you think the potential is to get one if he exists?

While it is fine to talk about the ideal, it is pointless in the real world unless it has some opportunity to be achieved. Teams that have players like Neil aren't about to trade them any time soon.