Orr says Crosby is a top-5 player of all time, McDavid has the potential to be the best ever

[412 Others]

As for Crosby to put him in the top 5 means he must be better than Lemieux? I find that hard to fathom.

Who said anything about putting Crosby in the top 2?

 

[psycat]

I think the issue is that fans like to compare resumes and career totals, rather than just talent.
McDavid is playing in a much tougher era of hockey, with the average level of competition being much higher than Gretzky. He's never going to come close to Gretzky's point totals or accolades, but I don't think it's crazy to suggest that he may be more talented.

I mean I could also be more talented.

 

[bobholly39]

Theres a difference between BEST and GREATEST

Gretzky isnt the BEST hes the GREATEST. Hockey is an evolving sport - guys now would skate circles around former players and are better in every facet of the game minus toughness

There is a difference between best and greatest, agreed.
Gretzky has more of a case for greatest, agreed.
Hockey is an evolving sport, agreed.
Hockey players haven't evolved that much. Considering how great Gretzky was - he's also pretty easily the best. The only 2 players who have an argument as "best" are Orr/Lemieux. They both reached a peak level comparable to him. Still makes sense to prefer Gretzky who did it more often and more consistently, but at least they're in the general vicinity.

Crosby and McDavid are great talents - but a step below.

Give Gretzky modern day equipment, give him a bit of time to acclimate/study today's game - and he'd rip the league to shreds, way more than Crosby or McDavid have.

 

[bobholly39]

It should be noted though that Gretzky and Lemieux basically won nothing team wise without virtual All-Star teams around them.

Gretzky was 0/11 after leaving Edmonton, a team that was so good they were able to win a Stanley Cup without him and still made the Conference Finals in 91 and 92 even without Messier and Kurri on top of that.

Not saying Gretzky isn't the greatest, but lets also be real here, none of these guys won shit either without loaded rosters.

A player has no control over their GM (Chiarelli) doing stupid things, the first year he's gone what a wild coincidence that the Oilers are immediately competing for top spot in the division and playoff bound again.

I know that Gretzky, Lemieux and even Orr won with great teams around them. I maintain that if you put any of those 3 guys peak versions on any team - give it a ~3-5 year stretch they all win at least 1 cup. They're simply way too good at their best.

Lemieux really hit his stride in ~88. Then in 89 made Rob Brown in a 100+ point guy (isn't he a career ~30 point guy?), and within 2 years won back to back cups with arguably the best smythe performances ever. Jagr is a big name but was a rookie. They did have a good team, but it was fully driven by Lemieux.

Can make the same argument for Gretzky, even moreso. Columbus Blue Jackets. First random team that popped into my head. They're in the play-in this year - i doubt they go far, probably lose that. Put Gretzky whose capable of scoring 45+ points in the playoffs on their team? Yup - they're going to win. And if they don't win this year - next year it'll work out better and they'll win. And if not then, by year 3 i'm sure. That "45+ point pace" is too big a differentiator to not lead a team to a cup. Orr - same thing.

By the time Gretzky left for LA he wasn't exactly in peak form anymore, and no he didn't win. And Lemieux didn't win again past 1992 - but he had all kinds of uneven/health issues. The premise isn't that they win every year - but at their peak being as good as they are, they definitely win at least once or twice regardless of team around them.

You couldnt make an argument against Howe if youre calling Lemieux or even Orr untouchable. Howe was better than Lemieux. I think McDavid will be the guy who finishes and is the one who finally separates himself enough to be considered clearly the 5th guy. Right now that 5th spot is in muddy waters but McDavid is the one I see grabbing it.

As great as Crosby is, he hasnt separated from the pack at 5 and hes getting older. On the other hand, McDavid has already led the league in points as many times as Crosby and has the same number of top 2 finishes. He needs to keep adding hardware but hes on track to be better than Crosby right now.



No but he would clearly lead the league in scoring. If I had to guess I would say 140-150 points for Gretzky in todays era would be attainable

McDavid is missing a lot to be in that 'clear 5th spot'. Crosby got injured and didn't win, but from that ~11-13 stretch was such a huge step above the field. If that had materialized, that would be "clear 5th/big 5 spot" material. Maybe McDavid will have such another level to channel - but so far he hasn't. McDavid is also far behind on playoffs. To reach a "clear 5th" spot he'd have to have among the greatest playoff resumes of all-time. He's young enough that it can still happen - but it's purely a guessing game now.

I think you're underestimating how insanely difficult it would be for a player to be seen as the "clear 5th best". It's one thing to be in the tier of the ~5-10 players who can be argued as 5th all-time, but to be "clearly 5th" means he's clearly above all of Crosby/Beliveau/Richard/Hull/Roy/Hasek etc. That's a really high bar.

There is no chance of anyone catching Gretzkys statistcs. That doesnt mean there will never be a better player. There just hasnt been one yet. So many things would have to go right for McD to be top 5 all time that its barely worth talking about at this point.

Very well said. I do think McDavid certainly has both the talent, as well as the career start (like Crosby, since 18, and hasn't missed a beat, which is such a critical component for them) to be a guy who sets his sight on that "5th all time" tier. But it's simply way too soon to tell. He still needs some significant improvements to his resume.

 

[Albatros]

Hockey players haven't evolved that much.

Really now? In the 1980s professional conduct was more of an exception than the rule. Even Lemieux was a heavy smoker with a sloppy work ethic in his early years. A part of Gretzky's edge was his serious approach to the game.

 

[HockeySniper]

Absolutely not LOL. Hasek is the 5 best player of all time. Crosby as great as he is and even if u hated him has to be in the top 20 no matter which way you cut it. But quite simply, individually has not done enough to be considered top 5 im sorry. 2 art ross trophies isn’t enough mcdavid has the same amount already.

 

[Mike Liut]

Welcome to the NHL.

Jordan/Montana - I let my championships speak for themselves. I'm the best to ever do it. We played tougher and harder, league these days is soft.

Gretzky/Orr - We were blessed to play when we did. Everyone is so good now... these guys today might be the best ever, they do things we couldnt.

Difference in humility between the leagues.

But yes, I almost forgot. Screw Orr, guy doesnt know what hes talking about. Only gives Crosby credit for injuries to benefit himself because he also had injuries....there, now the OP can maintain his Crosby victim complex.

Tom Brady says, move over Montana

 

[sycamore]

Tom Brady says, move over Montana

He does? How many Super Bowls did Montana lose again?

 

[Son Goku]

Absolutely not LOL. Hasek is the 5 best player of all time. Crosby as great as he is and even if u hated him has to be in the top 20 no matter which way you cut it. But quite simply, individually has not done enough to be considered top 5 im sorry. 2 art ross trophies isn’t enough mcdavid has the same amount already.

Thanks for the educated and well thought out response.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

Welcome to the NHL.

Jordan/Montana - I let my championships speak for themselves. I'm the best to ever do it. We played tougher and harder, league these days is soft.

Gretzky/Orr - We were blessed to play when we did. Everyone is so good now... these guys today might be the best ever, they do things we couldnt.

Difference in humility between the leagues.

But yes, I almost forgot. Screw Orr, guy doesnt know what hes talking about. Only gives Crosby credit for injuries to benefit himself because he also had injuries....there, now the OP can maintain his Crosby victim complex.

Uhh, the leagues may be different in that way, but I think you picked the wrong two players as an example. And the wrong era. That's more the modern era and modern players that say that. Jordan and Montana never bragged on themselves like that. They didn't go out of their way to kiss the modern players butt, but they didn't brag on themselves like that. You might be thinking more of LeBron.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I know that Gretzky, Lemieux and even Orr won with great teams around them. I maintain that if you put any of those 3 guys peak versions on any team - give it a ~3-5 year stretch they all win at least 1 cup. They're simply way too good at their best.

Lemieux really hit his stride in ~88. Then in 89 made Rob Brown in a 100+ point guy (isn't he a career ~30 point guy?), and within 2 years won back to back cups with arguably the best smythe performances ever. Jagr is a big name but was a rookie. They did have a good team, but it was fully driven by Lemieux.

Can make the same argument for Gretzky, even moreso. Columbus Blue Jackets. First random team that popped into my head. They're in the play-in this year - i doubt they go far, probably lose that. Put Gretzky whose capable of scoring 45+ points in the playoffs on their team? Yup - they're going to win. And if they don't win this year - next year it'll work out better and they'll win. And if not then, by year 3 i'm sure. That "45+ point pace" is too big a differentiator to not lead a team to a cup. Orr - same thing.

By the time Gretzky left for LA he wasn't exactly in peak form anymore, and no he didn't win. And Lemieux didn't win again past 1992 - but he had all kinds of uneven/health issues. The premise isn't that they win every year - but at their peak being as good as they are, they definitely win at least once or twice regardless of team around them.



McDavid is missing a lot to be in that 'clear 5th spot'. Crosby got injured and didn't win, but from that ~11-13 stretch was such a huge step above the field. If that had materialized, that would be "clear 5th/big 5 spot" material. Maybe McDavid will have such another level to channel - but so far he hasn't. McDavid is also far behind on playoffs. To reach a "clear 5th" spot he'd have to have among the greatest playoff resumes of all-time. He's young enough that it can still happen - but it's purely a guessing game now.

I think you're underestimating how insanely difficult it would be for a player to be seen as the "clear 5th best". It's one thing to be in the tier of the ~5-10 players who can be argued as 5th all-time, but to be "clearly 5th" means he's clearly above all of Crosby/Beliveau/Richard/Hull/Roy/Hasek etc. That's a really high bar.



Very well said. I do think McDavid certainly has both the talent, as well as the career start (like Crosby, since 18, and hasn't missed a beat, which is such a critical component for them) to be a guy who sets his sight on that "5th all time" tier. But it's simply way too soon to tell. He still needs some significant improvements to his resume.

Los of good stuff here.

But I completely disagree that putting peak Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux on any team and they automatically win a Cup within 3-5 years.

Hockey is still a team sport. Management and coaching can screw things up beyond what any single player can repair. And then there is goaltending.

 

[Garl]

Crosby is top 20, McDavid has potential to be there aswell.

Talk about Crosby as a top 5 player is pure hype. When Crosby is talked as TOP 5 does this mean that Malkin is TOP 10? I mean, between Malkin and Crosby it is not the same as between Ovy and Backstrom, where one is surely a better player, Malkin had several seasons where he was better than Crosby.

 

[chethejet]

Crosby is the best two way player and that places him higher than the typical scorer. McDavid to date lacks that element but he is still developing. Winning requires players in almost every case to be good at different scenarios to win cups. Gretzky played drive by D but his talent just overcame that. Mario was actually a really good defender when he wanted to but his energy was best served on offense.

 

[Prettyisland]

It’s time to start looking at team and league impact rather then stats. Those are unicorn numbers that can’t be touched.i think mcdavid mid prime has the potential to have the same impact and talent separation as gretz

 

[Voight]

Who said anything about putting Crosby in the top 2?

Lemoeix isnt top 2 hes 4/4

 

[bobholly39]

Los of good stuff here.

But I completely disagree that putting peak Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux on any team and they automatically win a Cup within 3-5 years.

Hockey is still a team sport. Management and coaching can screw things up beyond what any single player can repair. And then there is goaltending.

Well - i didn't use the word "automatically". There's a few basic assumptions that go in there. Pick any modern day team, even the worst one. Let's say Detroit.

Bring Gretzky on current day Detroit (and assume Gretzky dominates as much in today's league as back then). That means 200+ point regular season, 45+ point playoffs, or adjusted for today. He's too good not to turn Detroit into a winner. But it implies that:

1. He makes the players around him better. Which he did, maybe more than any player in history
2. Management/coaching is at least average, and not purposefully being morons/sabotaging. Some trades to complement team/strategy devised around maximizing Gretzky's value. To your point about goaltending - if it's particularly horrible one year, you upgrade.
3. UFA's will want to sign/play with Gretzky

So yeah. Put peak Gretzky scoring as much as he does on any team, being as good as he is - I think that team is bound to win at least 1 cup, maybe 2. He was such a big differntiator. So were peak Orr and peak Lemieux

 

[Perfect_Drug]

 

[Treb]

Lemoeix isnt top 2 hes 4/4

If he is 4th, then Crosby can be 5th without Lemieux being out of top5.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Well - i didn't use the word "automatically". There's a few basic assumptions that go in there. Pick any modern day team, even the worst one. Let's say Detroit.

Bring Gretzky on current day Detroit (and assume Gretzky dominates as much in today's league as back then). That means 200+ point regular season, 45+ point playoffs, or adjusted for today. He's too good not to turn Detroit into a winner. But it implies that:

1. He makes the players around him better. Which he did, maybe more than any player in history
2. Management/coaching is at least average, and not purposefully being morons/sabotaging. Some trades to complement team/strategy devised around maximizing Gretzky's value. To your point about goaltending - if it's particularly horrible one year, you upgrade.
3. UFA's will want to sign/play with Gretzky

So yeah. Put peak Gretzky scoring as much as he does on any team, being as good as he is - I think that team is bound to win at least 1 cup, maybe 2. He was such a big differntiator. So were peak Orr and peak Lemieux

If any of those 3 are playing today, at their peak, what are they making? More than anyone else, right? So how do you upgrade at all in a Cap league?

 

[Mike Liut]

He does? How many Super Bowls did Montana lose again?

Tom Brady has played in 9 super bowl and won 6. How many has Montana played in? How many has he won?

9>5
6>5

Brady wins

 

[bobholly39]

If any of those 3 are playing today, at their peak, what are they making? More than anyone else, right? So how do you upgrade at all in a Cap league?

Ok so Grezky joins Detroit. Let's pretend he signs McDavid money, 12.5M$ 8 years.

What's Yzerman's strategy today? Extremely passive. Tank a couple of years, accumulate prospects and rebuild. As soon as you get Gretzky that changes completely. Yzerman now becomes super aggressive. Mortgage some of the future if need be to bring in wingers, or a goalie, because you're now in "win now" mode.

Taylor Hall is UFA. I'm sure he's very interested in playing winger to Gretzky, he probably gives Detroit a good look.

it's a snowball effect.

I know there's a cap league - and I don't know Detroit's cap situation specifically - but i'm sure there are ways to build and improve quickly with Gretzky as your main piece. He's a big differentiator.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Josh Yohe goes into detail of the interview here:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thescore.com/nhl/news/1981275/amp
Is Sidney Crosby one of the best hockey players of all time?

For those who aren’t subscribed to the Athletic, there are some sound bites pulled out here:

Orr tabs Crosby as top-5 player in NHL history: 'Sid belongs on that list'

Both Orr and Lemieux have now said Crosby clearly belongs in the top-5 GOAT discussion. I’m sure many on here will have a field day with how the greatest defenceman of all time did not punish Crosby for his injuries, but rather praised him for his perseverance.

Probably more interesting is the comment about McDavid. I think it shows recognition of how the league has changed and become more competitive and more inclined to parity, and therefore a current or future player would not necessarily have to match Gretzky’s statistics and awards to really enter the GOAT discussion. I’m interested if people would agree or disagree with this.

Good post Dom. I would have Sid up there. His complete game since I would say Toews rubbing off on him has put him into the conversation. 5th is a lofty position. Howe, Orr, Lemieux, Gretzky, and we are leaving out some great players from the original 6. Belliveau, Hull. Sid is in the Messier class, definitely top 6-10 IMO.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Tom Brady has played in 9 super bowl and won 6. How many has Montana played in? How many has he won?

9>5
6>5

Brady wins

Agreed. Brady has surpassed Montana as the greatest. LeBron will probably finish 2nd all time behind only Jordan. Crosby & Ovechkin are already top 10, McDavid will likely get there too. Solid era to be a sports fan.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Ok so Grezky joins Detroit. Let's pretend he signs McDavid money, 12.5M$ 8 years.

What's Yzerman's strategy today? Extremely passive. Tank a couple of years, accumulate prospects and rebuild. As soon as you get Gretzky that changes completely. Yzerman now becomes super aggressive. Mortgage some of the future if need be to bring in wingers, or a goalie, because you're now in "win now" mode.

Taylor Hall is UFA. I'm sure he's very interested in playing winger to Gretzky, he probably gives Detroit a good look.

it's a snowball effect.

I know there's a cap league - and I don't know Detroit's cap situation specifically - but i'm sure there are ways to build and improve quickly with Gretzky as your main piece. He's a big differentiator.

Why's he getting McDavid money? Its Gretzky at his peak. Are you saying if he was playing now Gretzky would take McDavid money? I doubt it.

Guys like Taylor Hall are not giving up their one chance at a big payday to play with Gretzky. They'd have to pay up.

The Cap is a bitch.

I'd go for a better coach first. I'm sure coaching Gretzky would be of interest to top coaches.

 

[bobholly39]

Why's he getting McDavid money? Its Gretzky at his peak. Are you saying if he was playing now Gretzky would take McDavid money? I doubt it.

Guys like Taylor Hall are not giving up their one chance at a big payday to play with Gretzky. They'd have to pay up.

The Cap is a bitch.

I'd go for a better coach first. I'm sure coaching Gretzky would be of interest to top coaches.

I guess it depends on the context. Is Gretzky a UFA, or on an ELC? Or RFA? And does he go for max $$, or does he go to win? If he's a UFA he likely won't go to Detroit, so the point is moot. I figure 12.5M$ is a fine starting point for this hypothetical, even if he can get a lot more on UFA market.

What's Taylor Hall looking for this off season, 10M$AAV? I'm not saying he should look to accept 7m$ to play with Gretzky - maybe he still gets 10M$ but prioritizes the team Gretzky is on vs another suitor. Or maybe he evens signs for 9 or 9.5M to play with Gretzky, leaving a bit of money on the table.

Yes i'm sure they'd want to max out on the best coach possible too.