Orr says Crosby is a top-5 player of all time, McDavid has the potential to be the best ever

[HarryLime]

Crosby and McDavid will never be on Mario's level


they cannot touch him

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

He led the whole league in pts all those times and most people agree that he was as deserving of the Conn Smyth as the winner was.

Leading scorer doesn’t mean best player. The statement is false

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

96-97 was also an off year for him. Off year doesnt mean decline. He could just have easily rebounded the next year and scored 160+

Yes I agree. Which is why I don't think his ppg would be declining with league goals per game in 97-98 or 98-99. I think it would be closer to his 1.77 from 00-01.

 

[Essenege]

He dominated more than anyone outside of Gretzky.

Howe won 4 Art Rosses in a row by some of the largest scoring margins ever.

86-66 over Richard. A win 30.3% win.

86-69 over his linemate Lindsay. Lach was the closest non-teammate in third with 65 points. A 24.6% win. 32.3% over a non-teammate.

95-71 over his linemate Lindsay. Richard was third with 61 points. A 33.8% win. 55.7% over a non-teammate.

81-67 over Richard. A 20.9% win.

He led the league in goals 3 times and assists 3 times in those 4 years. He was 2nd in goals one time and 3rd in assists.

League goal scoring fluctuated went from 5.4 down to about 4.77 during this 4 year stretch.

When you put up 48 goals and 95 points and win the scoring title by by 24 points over your closest teammate and by 34 over your closest non teammate in a 4.77 scoring environment, what else can you do to flex on your peers?

He set the individual season scoring record with 86 points in 1950-1951. Tied his own record a year later with 86 again. Then broke his own record a year later with 95. By the end of his 4 consecutive Art Rosses, he had 4 of the top 5 highest scoring seasons in history.

He finished top 5 in points 20 seasons in a row. He won 6 Art Rosses overall. He won at age 28 and age 34. He was 3rd with 103 points at age 40 in 1968-1969 which was Orr’s third season for some reference. Top 5 in Hart voting 16 times, top 4 14 times, top 3 12 times, top 2 7 times and the Hart winner 6 times.

Howe had the dominance and the longevity. It baffles me when people think his spot is the one most vulnerable in the Big Four.

Great answer. You got me looking at this again. The problem I got with Gordie is that while it’s true he dominated the league those 4 years and was amongst the best afterwards, he was regularly beaten by Béliveau and others, while still in his prime years (26-30 years old). It looks like this era saw a great influx of skilled forward and improvement at the position. Howe was the first and probably the best, but was he really better than a guy like Béliveau? Maybe, but not that clearly. I mean, if Béliveau was 5 years older, I’m sure he would be right up there with Howe regarding point production in those 4 years.

Lemieux, Orr and Gretzky’s are at another level in their respective peak years. Heck, at 35 years old, Lemieux was producing at a 145 points pace. Jagr an Sakic in their prime we’re at 120 that year, and everyone else were under 100. THIS is domination, and at 35...wow. Based on PPG he was outproducing a still young and healthy Gretzky after 88, and massively outproducing everyone else. For me Howe is not in that tier. I’d still put him fourth but closer to the rest of top 5 candidates : Béliveau, Crosby, McD when all is said and done, Esposito, Bobby Hull, Lafleur...etc.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

To me since I started watching hockey it has been Orr, Howe(later years), 99, 66 top 4 players in the game. #5 gets murky but Crosby is in the conversation. He wouldn’t be higher than 5 but he fits and he still has hockey to play to add to the resume.

 

[Sol]

McDavid is probably going to be better than Crosby career wise

 

[Minar]

Leading scorer doesn’t mean best player. The statement is false

What I'm saying is it was a toss up. If Gretz had won it instead of Messier in 84 nobody would have complained.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

McDavid is probably going to be better than Crosby career wise

Better start working on that playoff resume

 

[Sol]

Better start working on that playoff resume

Well he's got time.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Well he's got time.

24 next year. The clock is starting to tick however slowly

 

[NextYear67]

McDavid is probably going to be better than Crosby career wise

Definitely not probably. The lack of playoff success is holding him back large.

 

[Random Comment]

I think the issue is that fans like to compare resumes and career totals, rather than just talent.
McDavid is playing in a much tougher era of hockey, with the average level of competition being much higher than Gretzky. He's never going to come close to Gretzky's point totals or accolades, but I don't think it's crazy to suggest that he may be more talented.

amazing how 90% of people on this board don’t understand this.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

What is this garbage??? His right hand man on the PP and sometimes on 5 on 5 is Leon Freaking Draisaitl who's scored 100 points plus for 2 straight years

Your bias is so gross

Leon "product of mcd but centred his own line for a few months so that disproves he's a product of mcd" Draisaitl

My bias is gross? Bwahaha fail!!!

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Why? It didn't hurt Lemieux's legacy that he played for the Pens when they were complete ass.

Elite talent shines through. If a player struggles to have individual success on a given franchise, then that player probably wasn't truly the best of the best.

Difference is that when they were as s they brought people in to dig them out. Edmonton may never. I wouldn't want to waste my prime years pretending drai is a centre with no sniffs of anything. Who knows though Maybe Holland five em out...I doubt it but maybe..

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Leon "product of mcd but centred his own line for a few months so that disproves he's a product of mcd" Draisaitl

My bias is gross? Bwahaha fail!!!

I don't think a player can be a product of another player when he outproduces that other player. Typically, "products of" put up big numbers they wouldn't normally put up thanks to the star on their line, but they don't surpass that star's numbers (ie. Cheechoo/Thornton, Kunitz/Crosby, R. Brown/Lemieux, etc.).

 

[Skin Tape Session]

I don't think a player can be a product of another player when he outproduces that other player. Typically, "products of" put up big numbers they wouldn't normally put up thanks to the star on their line, but they don't surpass that star's numbers (ie. Cheechoo/Thornton, Kunitz/Crosby, R. Brown/Lemieux, etc.).

So drai is better than mcd now? Hf has lost its damn mind!!!

 

[StonebeatsMcdavid]

Statistically he won't touch Gretzky and most likely no one ever will. But Lemieux didn't touch Gretzky stats wise either and some consider him better.

Lemieux's story is a classic example of "what if". He is considered to be on the same level or close to the same level because he had very similar point per game percentages to Gretzky while having cancer during his career. I don't think it would be fair to say that he was better than Gretzky, career wise. But, I think it's fair to say that he was as talented as Gretzky.

 

[daver]

So drai is better than mcd now? Hf has lost its damn mind!!!

Drai, like Kucherov the year before, and MacKinnon the year before that, and Crosby the year before that, had seasons that were as good or better than McDavid's.

He is not untouchable despite possibly being (giggle) more talented than Gretzky.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

As someone on page 1 alluded to, some consider Lemieux to be better than Gretzky and he couldn't touch him statistically. I'm not saying McDavid will reach that level, but in this current NHL he is the undisputed best player and quite notably on another level than everyone else (offensively at least). He's probably gonna stay like that for a while I'd imagine. But yeah, he's got a megaton of work to do as it's not easy to put someone in the top 4 greats.

As for Crosby, I firmly place him at #5 all time. Individual dominance + his personal and team accolades... Few are as decorated as him. I just don't know if on can put Beliveau, Hull, Lafleur and co above him. Crosby in the modern day NHL has been incredibly impressive, as big and slow defensemen and small-padded goalies have been weeded out.

 

[Minar]

As someone on page 1 alluded to, some consider Lemieux to be better than Gretzky and he couldn't touch him statistically. I'm not saying McDavid will reach that level, but in this current NHL he is the undisputed best player and quite notably on another level than everyone else (offensively at least). He's probably gonna stay like that for a while I'd imagine. But yeah, he's got a megaton of work to do as it's not easy to put someone in the top 4 greats.

As for Crosby, I firmly place him at #5 all time. Individual dominance + his personal and team accolades... Few are as decorated as him. I just don't know if on can put Beliveau, Hull, Lafleur and co above him. Crosby in the modern day NHL has been incredibly impressive, as big and slow defensemen and small-padded goalies have been weeded out.

Don't see how Mcdavid is in another level if he is outscored by draistle kucherov etc..

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Don't see how Mcdavid is in another level if he is outscored by draistle kucherov etc..

McDavid plays on line 1, Draisaitl plays on line 2.

Last season Kucherov played with Point and with Stamkos at other times.

Watching McDavid, it's clear he's the best player in the league. He's on another level, but I'm not saying the discrepancy is massive.

 

[HarryLime]

I also don't see how McDavid is on another planet than anyone else in the league. Like you can say that for guys like Gretzky who won like 8 or 9 art rosses in a row, or Bobby Orr for doing his thing in the 70s, or Hasek in the 90s. I think it's the pre-draft hype to go along with Connor being the most talented player in the league.
I'm not saying he isn't the best but I kinda think terms like 'another level' or 'another planet' should only be used when this is actually the case. You should have to be clearly ahead of everyone multiple years, leaving them in the dust to get that. As good as Crosby was, I don't think he even deserves it, when you had Ovie, Datsyuk and Malkin nipping at his heels and often times being the best overall player a lot of years.

IMO McDavid has only been the best player once. I expect more to come, and would obviously start my team with him over anyone else. Just saying. Only guys like Wayne/Orr/Mario/Hasek and maybe Richard would get that statement for me off the top of my head. Might be some more, pre original 6.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Statistically he won't touch Gretzky and most likely no one ever will. But Lemieux didn't touch Gretzky stats wise either and some consider him better.

There are three major factors behind the Lemieux>Gretzky argument:

1) Lemieux did achieve similar statistical heights. His 199 points in 76 games is close enough to Gretzky's 215 in 80. Likewise his 85 goals in 76 games compared to Gretzky's 92 in 80. Gretzky's greater consistency hitting those numbers and racking up massive career totals is partially to do with a simple difference in GP.

2) Lemieux did this in the context of the 1980s Penguins, not the 1980s Oilers. This is even more extreme than the difference in team situations between Crosby and McDavid in the modern era. The Pens were god-awful, especially without Lemieux, while the Oilers were the most dominant offensive machine ever assembled.

3) The eye test. Many people who watched both players considered Lemieux the better talent.

I don't think the above are quite enough to rank Lemieux over Gretzky in the final analysis, though #3 was compelling enough for me to do that for a long time. But there's a clear, strong argument for these two players to be ranked very close to one another.

That argument doesn't exist for McDavid. Five seasons into his career, he has proven not to be on the same tier as Gretzky or Lemieux offensively. He's a phenomenal talent, makes a lot of spectacular plays -- but his production isn't close enough for the eye test to close the gap. So far, even with his great 2020 season in the mix, McDavid looks more like a Marcel Dionne or Steve Yzerman level of scorer.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Lemieux have now said Crosby clearly belongs in the top-5 GOAT discussion

Probably more interesting is the comment about McDavid

but mario is crosby’s owner and bobby orr’s agency reps mcdavid. these two literally have a financial stake in pumping those guys’ tires.

idk, i feel like if i’m bobby orr and i’m at home by myself at night watching an oilers game, i think to myself, yeah this kid is good but there’s no way he’ll ever be as good as me. he probably thought the same about gretzky bitd too. i don’t think you can be as good as these guys are and not think like that.

 

[newfy]

There are three major factors behind the Lemieux>Gretzky argument:

1) Lemieux did achieve similar statistical heights. His 199 points in 76 games is close enough to Gretzky's 215 in 80. Likewise his 85 goals in 76 games compared to Gretzky's 92 in 80. Gretzky's greater consistency hitting those numbers and racking up massive career totals is partially to do with a simple difference in GP.

2) Lemieux did this in the context of the 1980s Penguins, not the 1980s Oilers. This is even more extreme than the difference in team situations between Crosby and McDavid in the modern era. The Pens were god-awful, especially without Lemieux, while the Oilers were the most dominant offensive machine ever assembled.

3) The eye test. Many people who watched both players considered Lemieux the better talent.

I don't think the above are quite enough to rank Lemieux over Gretzky in the final analysis, though #3 was compelling enough for me to do that for a long time. But there's a clear, strong argument for these two players to be ranked very close to one another.

That argument doesn't exist for McDavid. Five seasons into his career, he has proven not to be on the same tier as Gretzky or Lemieux offensively. He's a phenomenal talent, makes a lot of spectacular plays -- but his production isn't close enough for the eye test to close the gap. So far, even with his great 2020 season in the mix, McDavid looks more like a Marcel Dionne or Steve Yzerman level of scorer.

I disagree with that last part. McDavid already has 2 art ross trophies and 2 second place finishes. Hes got an extra art ross and hes only in season 5 basically. The only guy beating him this year is on his own team and their points per game are almost identical. Draisatl is definitely a stud but if anyone benefits in that situation from the other its Leon.

McDavid has walked into the league and basically put himself in a position where in a full season hes never finished worst than 2nd in points and to beat him you either need to play on his team or play on a record setting line up. McDavid is separating himself way more than anyone has recently at all. Probably since Lemieux to be honest