Orr says Crosby is a top-5 player of all time, McDavid has the potential to be the best ever

[StonebeatsMcdavid]

Don't see how Mcdavid is in another level if he is outscored by draistle kucherov etc..

Draisaitl's season was very impressive but I don't think it's fair to say that he was the best player this season. McDavid had pretty similar numbers if you consider the 7 games he missed and also was taking on the tougher match ups. I think Panarin was the most impressive forward and Mack played extremely well while carrying the Avs with all of the injuries that happened.

Last season you could argue that Kucherov played amazingly, which he did. However he had a lot of help on one of the most stacked NHL teams in recent history. Comparably, you have Patrick Kane who was playing for a struggling Hawks team and still almost got them into the playoffs while putting up 110 points. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that he could have matched Kucherov's point production on that Tampa Bay team.

McDavid is considered to be on another level because he does this every single year without exception. There are others who have extremely impressive numbers but McDavid got into the league and had a short freshman season due to injury that was still extremely impressive for a rookie. Since then it's been nothing but MVP caliber seasons. Since entering the league, he's averaged 1.3 points per game.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I disagree with that last part. McDavid already has 2 art ross trophies and 2 second place finishes. Hes got an extra art ross and hes only in season 5 basically. The only guy beating him this year is on his own team and their points per game are almost identical. Draisatl is definitely a stud but if anyone benefits in that situation from the other its Leon.

McDavid has walked into the league and basically put himself in a position where in a full season hes never finished worst than 2nd in points and to beat him you either need to play on his team or play on a record setting line up. McDavid is separating himself way more than anyone has recently at all. Probably since Lemieux to be honest

It's more about the margins of those finishes. His Art Rosses have been by healthy margins, but not curve-breaking like we saw from Gretzky and Lemieux (and Howe and Hull in earlier years). His point totals are more like an Yzerman, including this year which was on about the level of Yzerman's big 1989.

But McDavid is doing it at a much younger age than Yzerman or Dionne, which makes it hard to find a good comparable. I thought about saying Bobby Hull but that just seems like a weird comparison for some reason.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Crosby was just a superior talent at McDavid's age, and has rounded into perhaps the most complete forward in the entire NHL. Dude is top 5 all time, for my money. Below Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux and Orr.

McDavid will likely end up in the Jagr/Hasek tier if he plays a full career, 5-10 overall or so. Needs cups by the end of his playing days.

 

[Hockeyholic]

McDavid will be a hall of famer, and likely top 15 player of all time when it's all set and done. But zero chance of him ever surpassing Mario, Gretzky, or Orr. Very doubtful he surpasses Howe. Those players are in a class by themselves. Crosby has no chance of surpassing them either.

Crosby has a chance to be top five. But I think he needs another Smythe. Honestly for as great as he's been, two Art Rosses and Harts each seem to be a bit underwhelming.

 

[Svane]

That argument doesn't exist for McDavid. Five seasons into his career, he has proven not to be on the same tier as Gretzky or Lemieux offensively. He's a phenomenal talent, makes a lot of spectacular plays -- but his production isn't close enough for the eye test to close the gap. So far, even with his great 2020 season in the mix, McDavid looks more like a Marcel Dionne or Steve Yzerman level of scorer.

Mcdavid probably looks more like that than Gretzky or Lemieux, however I'd argue hes clearly on a superior track than Yzerman and Dionne. Yzerman only had one top 10 finish in his first 5 seasons, and 2 or so seasons with Ross level play through his whole career while Mcdavid has started his career with 4 consecutive Ross/MVP caliber seasons.

Lafleur, Jagr and Crosby are the closest comparisons To Mcdavid in terms of point scoring ability, and he has a healthy chance To end up as the best of that group health permitted.

Hes not going To approach Mario or Wayne.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Mcdavid probably looks more like that than Gretzky or Lemieux, however I'd argue hes clearly on a superior track than Yzerman and Dionne. Yzerman only had one top 10 finish in his first 5 seasons, and 2 or so seasons with Ross level play through his whole career while Mcdavid has started his career with 4 consecutive Ross/MVP caliber seasons.

Lafleur, Jagr and Crosby are the closest comparisons To Mcdavid in terms of point scoring ability, and he has a healthy chance To end up as the best of that group health permitted.

Hes not going To approach Mario or Wayne.

Lafleur hadn't crossed by mind... maybe that's the closest comparable to McDavid, especially stylistically. Once again we run into the same issue as with Yzerman and Dionne, that McDavid is doing it at a much younger age. That feels like a sign of his eventually becoming a higher caliber player than the above, but he's definitely not showing Mario/Wayne caliber upside.

But I can't think of too many other guys who were already winning scoring titles at his age. Jagr and Lafleur took a while to get off the ground. There's Bobby Hull, who just feels like an odd comparison, and Crosby who I'm trying to avoid for the sake of not derailing the thread. But if McDavid ends up in that tier when all is said and done, he'll be near the very top of the list of non-big-4 guys.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It's more about the margins of those finishes. His Art Rosses have been by healthy margins, but not curve-breaking like we saw from Gretzky and Lemieux (and Howe and Hull in earlier years). His point totals are more like an Yzerman, including this year which was on about the level of Yzerman's big 1989.

But McDavid is doing it at a much younger age than Yzerman or Dionne, which makes it hard to find a good comparable. I thought about saying Bobby Hull but that just seems like a weird comparison for some reason.

i think mcdavid's first two years were pretty much the same as mario's, except mcdavid missed half his rookie season.

but then after that, mario started outscoring the #3 guy by half a point/game while mcdavid hasn't hit that next level (yet?)

tbh i think the only good comparisons in terms of scoring this much this early are crosby/ovechkin. malkin up to year three was on that pace too but then had those two bad years before his hart/ross year six.

but then looking at those guys' careers you also have the kind of sad realization that we might have been witnessing mcdavid's peak already these last four years.

 

[Oddbob]

Hasn't Gretzky been on record saying his neighbors cousins best friend is better than him?
Former players over praising younger players is nothing new

It is why I don't take much from it when star players and legends give their takes on newer players. Crosby is darn good, but he is not even close to Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe, Hasek and a number of others when it comes to dominating your peers.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So drai is better than mcd now? Hf has lost its damn mind!!!

Is that really what you took away from what I said?

 

[Seanaconda]

Josh Yohe goes into detail of the interview here:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thescore.com/nhl/news/1981275/amp
Is Sidney Crosby one of the best hockey players of all time?

For those who aren’t subscribed to the Athletic, there are some sound bites pulled out here:

Orr tabs Crosby as top-5 player in NHL history: 'Sid belongs on that list'

Both Orr and Lemieux have now said Crosby clearly belongs in the top-5 GOAT discussion. I’m sure many on here will have a field day with how the greatest defenceman of all time did not punish Crosby for his injuries, but rather praised him for his perseverance.

Probably more interesting is the comment about McDavid. I think it shows recognition of how the league has changed and become more competitive and more inclined to parity, and therefore a current or future player would not necessarily have to match Gretzky’s statistics and awards to really enter the GOAT discussion. I’m interested if people would agree or disagree with this.

Why would a guy that got his career cut in half because of injuries judge another person on them ?

 

[Seanaconda]

The McDavid thing is laughable, McDavid is part of Orr Hockey group, so either Orr is:
a) A senile 72 year old man, or
b) Wants to boost and give some confidence to his client (more likely IMO)

The Crosby thing at least has some basis, Crosby is definitely up there for the #5 spot with Jagr/Hasek/Ovi/Hull etc, so it's reasonable for Orr to want to just throw in a Canadian in that spot.

McDavid has a long way to go before he is appointed anything. For all we know, he could never win a scoring title, or goalscoring title, or a cup. Too much potential for things to go wrong. Crosby was probably deemed the next Gretzky after his Ross in his 2nd season, then he only went on to win 1 more the rest of his career. Ovechkin won 3 straight Pearsons, and lead the league in points/gp those same 3 years, and never did after that. Crosby's greatness now has came from great consistency and cups, Ovechkin from his goalscoring.

He has two scoring titles already ? Unless you mean rockets then sure the guy that scores 50 goals and comes in like 50th for points gets that every year.

 

[McTonyBrar]

Leon "product of mcd but centred his own line for a few months so that disproves he's a product of mcd" Draisaitl

My bias is gross? Bwahaha fail!!!

You've failed..

 

[alko]

What is the definition "the potential to be the best ever"?

 

[daver]

I disagree with that last part. McDavid already has 2 art ross trophies and 2 second place finishes. Hes got an extra art ross and hes only in season 5 basically. The only guy beating him this year is on his own team and their points per game are almost identical. Draisatl is definitely a stud but if anyone benefits in that situation from the other its Leon.

McDavid has walked into the league and basically put himself in a position where in a full season hes never finished worst than 2nd in points and to beat him you either need to play on his team or play on a record setting line up. McDavid is separating himself way more than anyone has recently at all. Probably since Lemieux to be honest

By "recently" you mean less than five years ago? McDavid has yet to reach Crosby's peak level of dominance.

Here is how McDavid has "separated himself" in PPG over the past four years:

16/17 - the best PPG by 0.03

17/18 - the best PPG by 0.01

18/19 - not the best PPG

19/20 - not the best PPG

 

[daver]

but then looking at those guys' careers you also have the kind of sad realization that we might have been witnessing mcdavid's peak already these last four years.

Why is it sad? It appears to me that these last two prodigies (Crosby and McDavid) were being groomed for the NHL at a much earlier age than previous ones so they hit the NHL running so to speak.

We can will never know for sure if they could have been even more dominant in Wayne's era, which happened in the middle of the NHL expanding five times over in a period of 25 years.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Why is it sad? It appears to me that these last two prodigies (Crosby and McDavid) were being groomed for the NHL at a much earlier age than previous ones so they hit the NHL running so to speak.

In what way was Sidney Crosby groomed for the NHL at an earlier age than Wayne Gretzky?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Why is it sad?

just that i think a lot of us are expecting another level, plus that there is also the chance à la age 25+ ovechkin that where he’s at now could be over a lot sooner than we are prepared for

i guess just a lesson to enjoy what we’re watching while we’re watching it instead of looking too much at history and all time rankings and is he there yet

 

[Skin Tape Session]

You've failed..

#tooeasy

 

[Voight]

He dominated more than anyone outside of Gretzky.

Howe won 4 Art Rosses in a row by some of the largest scoring margins ever.

86-66 over Richard. A win 30.3% win.

86-69 over his linemate Lindsay. Lach was the closest non-teammate in third with 65 points. A 24.6% win. 32.3% over a non-teammate.

95-71 over his linemate Lindsay. Richard was third with 61 points. A 33.8% win. 55.7% over a non-teammate.

81-67 over Richard. A 20.9% win.

He led the league in goals 3 times and assists 3 times in those 4 years. He was 2nd in goals one time and 3rd in assists.

League goal scoring fluctuated went from 5.4 down to about 4.77 during this 4 year stretch.

When you put up 48 goals and 95 points and win the scoring title by by 24 points over your closest teammate and by 34 over your closest non teammate in a 4.77 scoring environment, what else can you do to flex on your peers?

He set the individual season scoring record with 86 points in 1950-1951. Tied his own record a year later with 86 again. Then broke his own record a year later with 95. By the end of his 4 consecutive Art Rosses, he had 4 of the top 5 highest scoring seasons in history.

He finished top 5 in points 20 seasons in a row. He won 6 Art Rosses overall. He won at age 28 and age 34. He was 3rd with 103 points at age 40 in 1968-1969 which was Orr’s third season for some reference. Top 5 in Hart voting 16 times, top 4 14 times, top 3 12 times, top 2 7 times and the Hart winner 6 times.

Howe had the dominance and the longevity. It baffles me when people think his spot is the one most vulnerable in the Big Four.

Yet people on this board will act like his place in the big 4 is debatable and he could "lose it" to someone else.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Yup, both Crosby and Ovechkin are top 10 players all time at this point and it's only a matter of where they end up.

 

[bobholly39]

In what way was Sidney Crosby groomed for the NHL at an earlier age than Wayne Gretzky?

I'd agree with his statement. I just feel as though prospects and development is a lot more evolved today than it was back then. Gretzky didn't even start at the NHL, but in the WHA. So - just in terms of that. I think Crosby and McDavid are the two most NHL-ready prospects ever, doesn't mean they're the best though (Gretzky/Lemieux).

Yup, both Crosby and Ovechkin are top 10 players all time at this point and it's only a matter of where they end up.

Top 15. There are a lot of great players in history. You can probably convince me that Ovechkin is top 10 on a good day, but rather leave it at top 15. There's Crosby/Roy/Hasek/Jagr/Hull/Richard/Beliveau/Bourque/Harvey etc etc. That's a lot of names to fill out 6 spots.

 

[Saint Patty 33]

Crosby is in the top 5, yes.

McDavid will be up there one day too but not "the best".

 

[HarryLime]

McDavid will be a hall of famer, and likely top 15 player of all time when it's all set and done. But zero chance of him ever surpassing Mario, Gretzky, or Orr. Very doubtful he surpasses Howe. Those players are in a class by themselves. Crosby has no chance of surpassing them either.

Crosby has a chance to be top five. But I think he needs another Smythe. Honestly for as great as he's been, two Art Rosses and Harts each seem to be a bit underwhelming.

Agreed with all besides Crosby needing another Smyhte to join them. As someone from Halifax that loves Crosby, he didn't deserve either of the ones he was given.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I also don't see how McDavid is on another planet than anyone else in the league. Like you can say that for guys like Gretzky who won like 8 or 9 art rosses in a row, or Bobby Orr for doing his thing in the 70s, or Hasek in the 90s. I think it's the pre-draft hype to go along with Connor being the most talented player in the league.
I'm not saying he isn't the best but I kinda think terms like 'another level' or 'another planet' should only be used when this is actually the case. You should have to be clearly ahead of everyone multiple years, leaving them in the dust to get that. As good as Crosby was, I don't think he even deserves it, when you had Ovie, Datsyuk and Malkin nipping at his heels and often times being the best overall player a lot of years.

IMO McDavid has only been the best player once. I expect more to come, and would obviously start my team with him over anyone else. Just saying. Only guys like Wayne/Orr/Mario/Hasek and maybe Richard would get that statement for me off the top of my head. Might be some more, pre original 6.

You had me until you said maybe Richard who has 0 art ross trophies

 

[HarryLime]

You had me until you said maybe Richard who has 0 art ross trophies

I guess you can remove him but he was the best goal scorer ever until Wayne