Orpik and Niskanen vs Two Potatos

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

How the **** is it hard to comprehend that some people want them to make the right moves, not just moves? Wanting them to do things doesn't mean you're a hypocrite if you complain when they do the wrong ones.

They weren't 'just moves'. They were moves that addressed the longest-running problem area in the organization and significantly improved on it.

Again, I'll point back to the Willie Mitchell example of a move that was largely not considered the right move at the time LA did it.

The Isles acquisition of Thomas Vanek was also considered the right move by many. That blew up in the Isles' faces.

 

[Holtbyisms]

How the **** is it hard to comprehend that some people want them to make the right moves, not just moves? Wanting them to do things doesn't mean you're a hypocrite if you complain when they do the wrong ones.

I know it's hard to break old habits and I know a lot of us are conditioned for doom and gloom but breath deep, we made positive moves.

What exactly do you feel the "right moves" would have been and do you have any confirmation that the player(s) wanted to come here or were available to us?

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

I absolutely love how the same people who complain about us doing nothing are the ones who complain when we go all in and improve the team more than I can remember in a very long time.

Also the absolute ignorance in thinking one can simply throw money at any FA on the market and they'll come play for your team is laughable. I challenge you to listen to a fair amount of FA pressers/conference calls and tell me what the vast majority of them single out as a reason they turned down more money to go where they went (ie: Niskanen). This is the NHL and nobody is holding ESPN specials about taking their talents to D.C. Is about comfort, family and familiarity. Those both played a part in our two D signings.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

So because we don't know what's going on behind the scenes, we've got no right to make any judgements or form our own opinions?

What outside voices? The idiots on TSN and NHL network? Those guys actually fit the old GMGM axiom, "if they knew the game, they'd be in it". I trust Barry Trotz far more than any of those talking heads.

They were over-payments, sure. But you've got to pay to improve on the UFA market, unless the UFAs have already decided to sign with you (see Vanek, Thomas and Ehrhoff, Christian), and there's always a way to rid yourself of players that don't work out.

How about the overwhelming majority of Penguins fans, who've been talking about how bad Orpik's gotten for two years, and have no problem at all letting Niskanen walk? The two Penguins GMs who apparently had no interest in bringing them back either? The advanced stats that show Orpik's corsi numbers have been much worse since his sports hernia surgery? Niskanen's 1031 PDO, and the way his corsi numbers plunge away from Crosby and Malkin?

The worst case scenario, as I see it, is that Orpik keeps getting hurt and slowing down, and ends up being 2013-Erskine-type #5 defenseman within a year or so, while Niskanen is the new Wideman who just cashed in on a fluke season. Anyone who thinks either of those forecasts isn't a possibility is fooling themselves. If both of them happen we are monumentally ****ed for the foreseeable future.

 

[usiel]

How the **** is it hard to comprehend that some people want them to make the right moves, not just moves? Wanting them to do things doesn't mean you're a hypocrite if you complain when they do the wrong ones.

Respectfully it would be cool if you could clarify because it sounds like right thing was not to bring in two dmen which... were completely needed. It is anyone right to not like the paricular players/term but man.... The caps are so much better this season. I have a little hesitancy with Trotz's system unless he has shown some creativeness considering the skill on this team. Other than dman Nashville was not good drafting skill players. Was that on the scouts or was that on Trotz or somewhere in between?

 

[Liberati0n*]

They weren't 'just moves'. They were moves that addressed the longest-running problem area in the organization and significantly improved on it.

Again, I'll point back to the Willie Mitchell example of a move that was largely not considered the right move at the time LA did it.

The Isles acquisition of Thomas Vanek was also considered the right move by many. That blew up in the Isles' faces.

I know it's hard to break old habits and I know a lot of us are conditioned for doom and gloom but breath deep, we made positive moves.

What exactly do you feel the "right moves" would have been and do you have any confirmation that the player(s) wanted to come here or were available to us?

I wasn't making any comment on particular moves in that post. A bunch of people have suggested that people wanting moves were hypocrites for complaining about these. That's beyond ridiculous.

 

[Langway]

These two signings are so different, it's not appropriate to analyze them together. One is good to excellent, the other bad to terrible.

They're both mediocre in a solid way I think. Not game-changers but perhaps solid pieces at the early stages of an actual organizational program/identity. I'm not sure of the entirety of the front office or necessarily all of the players but this is the sort of boldness I expected. As smart a play as value would have been I don't think that was their intention. (I also don't expect analytics and front office types to be dictating moves. This is Trotz's baby. These were his targets.)

Orpik doesn't belong in the same sentence as Erskine. He's a legit shutdown guy and part of one of the better PKs in the league the past few years. The question is: how much does that player warrant? Less than he got reasonably but this is what happens when an organization finds themselves in a situation where overcompensating is believed to be warranted.

 

[Liberati0n*]

Respectfully it would be cool if you could clarify because it sounds like right thing was not to bring in two dmen which... were completely needed. It is anyone right to not like the paricular players/term but man.... The caps are so much better this season. I have a little hesitancy with Trotz's system unless he has shown some creativeness considering the skill on this team. Other than dman Nashville was not good drafting skill players. Was that on the scouts or was that on Trotz or somewhere in between?

I'm just saying that you can want moves and disagree with particular ones. I'm not talking about the moves, just the judgments some are making against people who are complaining. This has been a recurring thing here. You can want moves to be made and also object if the right ones (as you see them) aren't the ones that are made.

Edit: Separately, I have started to come around a little. I don't think Niskanen is particularly great, and his contract is long, but his salary isn't horrible. The widespread almost-consensus that Orpik is pretty much broken down is pretty disturbing, but I do see the value of what he could bring. His contract is terrible, of course. NBTW and strungout are right that the defense is now extremely deep. I had assumed Green would be moved, and still think he may be, which would change that somewhat. If they can trim salary from the forwards to add a center or two, things would look okay. But while that defensive depth is nice, I still don't buy that it's really a contending unit. Maybe with good coaching and development, but I don't know.

 

[Holtbyisms]

So because we don't know what's going on behind the scenes, we've got no right to make judgements?



How about the overwhelming majority of Penguins fans, who've been talking about how bad Orpik's gotten for two years, and have no problem at all letting Niskanen walk? The two Penguins GMs who apparently had no interest in bringing them back either? The advanced stats that show Orpik's corsi numbers have been much worse since his sports hernia surgery? Niskanen's 1031 PDO, and the way his corsi numbers plunge away from Crosby and Malkin?

The worst case scenario, as I see it, is that Orpik keeps getting hurt and slowing down, and ends up being 2013-Erskine-type #5 defenseman within a year or so, while Niskanen is the new Wideman who just cashed in on a fluke season. Anyone who thinks either of those forecasts isn't a possibility is fooling themselves. If both of them happen we are monumentally ****ed for the foreseeable future.

Not at all what I meant. People are entitled to be pissed off about today as much as I'm elated. I just can't understand the angst over the moves. They're both a massive upgrade over Oleksy, Schmidt, Carrick, Erskine, Wey, Brouillette, Urbom, Strachan, Hillen and Schilling. We added two top 4 defenders today and the Cap will do nothing but increase every year.

 

[usiel]

They're both mediocre in a solid way I think. Not game-changers but perhaps solid pieces at the early stages of an actual organizational program/identity. I'm not sure of the entirety of the front office or necessarily all of the players but this is the sort of boldness I expected. As smart a play as value would have been I don't think that was their intention. (I also don't expect analytics and front office types to be dictating moves. This is Trotz's baby. These were his targets.)

Orpik doesn't belong in the same sentence as Erskine. He's a legit shutdown guy and part of one of the better PKs in the league the past few years. The question is: how much does that player warrant? Less than he got reasonably but this is what happens when an organization finds themselves in a situation where overcompensating is believed to be warranted.

This...also bold moves, despite a subpar free agency, sends a message not only to the teams/league but to the players. Time to make this move having AO on the squad.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

Orpik doesn't belong in the same sentence as Erskine. He's a legit shutdown guy and part of one of the better PKs in the league the past few years. The question is: how much does that player warrant? Less than he got reasonably but this is what happens when an organization finds themselves in a situation where overcompensating is believed to be warranted.

One is a physical shot blocker who plays the puck like a grenade and isn't a smart player. The other one can also skate. If Orpik loses his skating ability - and the sports hernia and knee injury indicate to me that's a real possibility - he's a borderline passable shutdown and PK #5 defenseman, just like Erskine post-lockout.

 

[usiel]

I'm just saying that you can want moves and disagree with particular ones. I'm not talking about the moves, just the judgments some are making against people who are complaining. This has been a recurring thing here. You can want moves to be made and also object if the right ones (as you see them) aren't the ones that are made.

Edit: Separately, I have started to come around a little. I don't think Niskanen is particularly great, and his contract is long, but his salary isn't horrible. The widespread almost-consensus that Orpik is pretty much broken down is pretty disturbing, but I do see the value of what he could bring. His contract is terrible, of course. NBTW and strungout are right that the defense is now extremely deep. I had assumed Green would be moved, and still think he may be, which would change that somewhat. If they can trim salary from the forwards to add a center or two, things would look okay. But while that defensive depth is nice, I still don't buy that it's really a contending unit. Maybe with good coaching and development, but I don't know.

Who cares if anyone or the majority disagrees with you....or their judgements to the majority or the minority. Everyone is equal here when it comes to their opinion regardless of majority.

If Green is moved it is for another dman. But this is clear watching the playoffs...need to have puck moving dmen. IMHO Green has been hand cuffed. One thing I saw in the 3rd and 4th round of the playoffs once a good skating dman who could pass broke down the forechecker when coming out behind of the net it was free sailing.

 

[WanderingCapsFan]

So Ovechkin is overpaid as a emotionally fragile power play specialist. And Backstrom is overpaid as a fat, lazy #1 center.

How is this different?

Loser organIzation.

And I've been here since year one.

Same old, same old.

 

[artilector]

I'll give it to potatoes by a very slim margin, since when they rot, you can just throw them out, you don't have to carry the decomposing organic matter around with you.

However, if the salary cap continues to skyrocket, it may tip the scale in favor of the bipedals. That's the big hope.

Also there's a non-zero chance that "science, b1tch" will make some advances in the field of life-extension and regeneration in the next five years, and so the risk associated with Brooks 2.0 might possibly be mitigated. In fact, start him on those Black Mamba voodoo knee injections right away, can't hurt, sort of.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

Not at all what I meant. People are entitled to be pissed off about today as much as I'm elated. I just can't understand the angst over the moves. They're both a massive upgrade over Oleksy, Schmidt, Carrick, Erskine, Wey, Brouillette, Urbom, Strachan, Hillen and Schilling. We added two top 4 defenders today and the Cap will do nothing but increase every year.

Do you think the worst case scenario I outlined is totally unreasonable? Because I think the possibility that happens is a pretty good reason for angst. If this blows up, it's crippling, and it doesn't seem like there'll be any lockout to throw us a compliance buyout life-raft.

 

[usiel]

So Ovechkin is overpaid as a emotionally fragile power play specialist. And Backstrom is overpaid as a fat, lazy #1 center.

How is this different?

Loser organIzation.

And I've been here since year one.

Same old, same old.

Not sure I understand your post. Feels like coming in on the finale of another conversation.

 

[KevinM]

My gut says potatoes for now, but maybe Niskanen and Orpik (just say "NO!") will surprise us. We definitely improved on the blue line, but at a pretty enormous cost and there's a lot of uncertainty surrounding both players as well as huge term that makes me uneasy.

 

[Devil Dancer]

They're both mediocre in a solid way I think. Not game-changers but perhaps solid pieces at the early stages of an actual organizational program/identity. I'm not sure of the entirety of the front office or necessarily all of the players but this is the sort of boldness I expected. As smart a play as value would have been I don't think that was their intention. (I also don't expect analytics and front office types to be dictating moves. This is Trotz's baby. These were his targets.)

Orpik doesn't belong in the same sentence as Erskine. He's a legit shutdown guy and part of one of the better PKs in the league the past few years. The question is: how much does that player warrant? Less than he got reasonably but this is what happens when an organization finds themselves in a situation where overcompensating is believed to be warranted.

I love the boldness, and I hope that continues into the future in both the FA market and the trade market, but that doesn't change the fact that these are two very different signings that should be analyzed separately. Niskanen could be a good Cap for many years. Orpik might be a good Cap for 1-2 years if we're lucky, and the last 2-3 years of that contract are almost guaranteed to be bad.

So I vote for Niskanen and one potato.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

The board up this board's ass has a board up its ass

This.

Really? This is a thread?

Maybe I missed it because I haven't read through all the threads, but if any of you have posted an actual defense of these moves, with reasons why the Pens fans and the statistics shouldn't be believed, I'd really love to hear it. So far all I'm hearing is "but it's better than last year!"

 

[Acallabeth]

Well, obviously I'd prefer us signing better and cheaper players, but let's be reality: we're not an attractive franchise, so to get there and to improve the team, we have to overpay. Just at least overpay the right players...

 

[Liberati0n*]

Maybe I missed it because I haven't read through all the threads, but if any of you have posted an actual defense of these moves, with reasons why the Pens fans and the statistics shouldn't be believed, I'd really love to hear it. So far all I'm hearing is "but it's better than last year!"

Why is a mod trolling a thread on his own board?

 

[searle]

The signings I'm happy with, paying Brooks Orpik THAT much money when he's 38 will cripple us in a few years. Let's just pray we get another round of compliance buyouts near then.

For this year and next year I think it's not a bad move at all. Except that it meant we couldn't sign a number 2 Centre.

 

[txpd]

two things.

1. Before Ehrhoff was bought out Niskanen was considered the best defenseman in the UFA market. The Caps got him. The reaction that it somehow is a stupid move doesn't make any sense to me. I fear that his career year last season risks that he is a flash in the pan, but that's a long way from doom.

The Orpik deal is another story. You almost have to think the Caps factored in buying him out after two or three seasons as part of getting him. The two deals combined softens the hideous term of the Orpik deal.

2. as to defending the Orpik deal. Trotz with his involvement last year with team USA GM Poile and Pens defense coach Rierden being on the Caps staff now, you would think these two would know if these two players are reliable. Lets face it Trotz will not survive the term of these contracts and his tenure will be a career killer if both of these players stink.

I mean this is what some of you have to be saying. Niskanen is as bad as Green and Green sucks....addition by subtraction. right? Oprik is no better than the doomed Erskine of last season.

By all indications Trotz was heavily involved in these acquisitions.

 

[g00n]

Maybe I missed it because I haven't read through all the threads, but if any of you have posted an actual defense of these moves, with reasons why the Pens fans and the statistics shouldn't be believed, I'd really love to hear it. So far all I'm hearing is "but it's better than last year!"

I think you missed the joke. I thought it was obvious that my comment was a slightly veiled Simpsons reference (what with your Futurama username) intended to poke fun at those taking your post too seriously. I guess the irony here is that the board in your butt has a board in its butt, too.

As for the moves and comments in other threads, I questioned the lack of any ATTEMPT at communication with Ehrhoff and challenged the notion that his decision to go to the Pens was set based on criteria we had no chance of countering. We didn't even TRY. And I can surmise as to why...

I have suggested there would be a Reirden connection and that Niskanen and Orpik would be coming our way, half-joking that maybe getting Reirden was part of a tin-foil hat plan to get those two on the cheap (Ha!). Given what I believe is a pattern of nepotism and preference for familiarity in the Caps organization filtering down from Ted and DP I was not surprised at all by these moves, and upon seeing the Orpik specifics I was even more firmly convinced that they had those two targeted all along and maybe made token overtures to other players, if at all.

But, since the meltdown vs Tampa over 10 years ago, pre-firesale, I've been banging the drum to restore the SC Finals quality defense we used to have. I have been saying in recent years that this team needs TWO top four defensemen before it's a Cup contender. It has been one of my main complaints regarding GMGM...that he has not valued defensemen or defense IN GENERAL enough to pay for it. I have also said you have to overpay at times to get the right pieces because that's how the market looks to those watching it blow by. So I applaud the willingness of the new-ish regime to open up the coffers and throw some coin at defense.

BUT BUT BUT...wtf on the Orpik numbers? It's not just people here on this board questioning it. It's the entire hockey world. It's a clear overpayment, which would be OK if quality is what you're paying for. And with Orpik there are a lot of questions that make both the length and salary seem potentially ridiculous.

So it's good that they finally tried to make the right moves. But the actual details of the moves deserve some skepticism.

Like most things in life the situation is complex enough that you can get part of what you want and part of what you don't want. This looks like a mixed result that needs to be evaluated down the line. If we hoist a Cup in 2-3 years and Orpik and Niskanen contribute, few should care much about these contracts until the time comes to move on.

...since you asked.

 

[PucktotheHead]

People *****ing about Mac making the moves he did. The thing is he did SOMETHING and didn't just sit and watch everyone make moves. How many people were pissed when they hired Mac because they wanted Shero?? Shero because he took risks and tried to improve his club. That boys and girls is what happened yesterday for the Caps. Did they pay too much? Yeah Orpik as we see him today but if he plays well and finishes a solid plus player who skates with a huge pair swinging will it be a good move? I think so. Will he make it here all five years? I don't think so but who knows. Look at Willie Mitchell.

Peters good move. Latta good move. Niskanen good move. Orpik the jury is out. I absolutely did not want him here but am willing to see if he can prove me wrong. I think there are deals to come. Beagle, Mojo, Erskine, maybe Brouwer or Ward or some Hershey dudes. Lots of talented young D down there and not much in the way of forwards.

So what did we learn yesterday?

The Caps have a GM willing to pull the trigger. For better or worse. You never win if you don't take a chance.

And I am okay with that. Drop the puck.

 

[Coldplay619]

People *****ing about Mac making the moves he did. The thing is he did SOMETHING and didn't just sit and watch everyone make moves. How many people were pissed when they hired Mac because they wanted Shero?? Shero because he took risks and tried to improve his club. That boys and girls is what happened yesterday for the Caps. Did they pay too much? Yeah Orpik as we see him today but if he plays well and finishes a solid plus player who skates with a huge pair swinging will it be a good move? I think so. Will he make it here all five years? I don't think so but who knows. Look at Willie Mitchell.

Peters good move. Latta good move. Niskanen good move. Orpik the jury is out. I absolutely did not want him here but am willing to see if he can prove me wrong. I think there are deals to come. Beagle, Mojo, Erskine, maybe Brouwer or Ward or some Hershey dudes. Lots of talented young D down there and not much in the way of forwards.

So what did we learn yesterday?

The Caps have a GM willing to pull the trigger. For better or worse. You never win if you don't take a chance.

And I am okay with that. Drop the puck.

At least we have a GM that's willing to take risks? What kind of help is that if his moves are **** and crippling to the team's future?

Keep drinking the kool-aid.