Seravalli: On Elias Lindholm: "I think he will either be signed by draft week or traded."

[Digitalbooya]

Rewind a season and Lindholm absolutely destroyed Hintz head to head in the playoffs...

Hintz had more playoff points in this year's playoffs than Lindholm has in his entire career.

 

[AKL]

Sounds like a pretty routine trade negotiation.

I would wager most routine trade negotiations aren't that far apart in value. The difference between a 1st+2nd and 3rd+Foligno is not small.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Hintz had more playoff points in this year's playoffs than Lindholm has in his entire career.

And he had 25 points (9 goals) in his first 44 playoff games..

Kaprizov was a complete no show for you guys this playoffs - does that make him useless?

It's a silly argument to make.

 

[AKL]

And he had 25 points (9 goals) in his first 44 playoff games..

Kaprizov was a complete no show for you guys this playoffs - does that make him useless?

It's a silly argument to make.

I think you can try making this argument again if Lindholm ever has a run like Hintz did. Otherwise it doesn't change the fact that Hintz had more points this year than Lindholm has in his career.

Also, unironically, that 25 points in 44 games was only marginally worse (0.06 points per game) than Lindholm's numbers, so I'm not even sure that's the dunk you think it is. At worst, Hintz is equal to Lindholm. At best, he's far better.

And yeah, Kaprizov was useless this year. I'm not sure how that strengthens your argument but alas.

 

[HighLifeMan]

I think you can try making this argument again if Lindholm ever has a run like Hintz did. Otherwise it doesn't change the fact that Hintz had more points this year than Lindholm has in his career.

Also, unironically, that 25 points in 44 games was only marginally worse (0.06 points per game) than Lindholm's numbers, so I'm not even sure that's the dunk you think it is. At worst, Hintz is equal to Lindholm. At best, he's far better.

And yeah, Kaprizov was useless this year. I'm not sure how that strengthens your argument but alas.

What argument am I trying to make? I simply pointed out that using such small data points when comparing players is a silly. Hintz got hot for 19 games at a crucial time of year - that doesn't make him a significantly better player than Lindholm. They are both fantastic hockey players, and certainly (at this point) in the same tier of talent.

I am not sure what your insistence is on discrediting Lindholm in this thread.

 

[2023FriendshipTour]

Would love to see him in Colorado on the 2nd line. Colorado would be head and above the rest of the west at that point with him and being healthy.

 

[AKL]

What argument am I trying to make? I simply pointed out that using such small data points when comparing players is a silly. Hintz got hot for 19 games at a crucial time of year - that doesn't make him a significantly better player than Lindholm. They are both fantastic hockey players, and certainly (at this point) in the same tier of talent.

I am not sure what your insistence is on discrediting Lindholm in this thread.

My insistence on discrediting Lindholm is because this is a discussion board, and I'm discussing how Lindholm isn't as good as you're trying to make him out to be.

Like you actually said (presumably with a straight face) that we shouldn't put any stock into Hintz's playoff run this year because it was just a hot streak at the right time. Meanwhile, you're pulling out all the excuses for how Lindholm would have scored 72 points (his average per 82 with Calgary) instead of 64 points if only he had better wingers, or that Lindholm was in fact the one that carried Tkachuk and Gaudreau to their 100+ point seasons by "doing all the heavy lifting".

You are bending over backwards to make Lindholm look better than he is, and you are sweeping everything that says otherwise under the rug as trivial.

So what is your insistence on pumping Lindholm's tires? Is your end goal to get people on a message board to agree to offer you the asinine request of top prospect+1st+1st+2nd that some of your fellow Flames fans have asked for? Will that make you guys feel better when he ultimately doesn't return that because he's clearly not worth that?

 

[Digitalbooya]

And he had 25 points (9 goals) in his first 44 playoff games..

Kaprizov was a complete no show for you guys this playoffs - does that make him useless?

It's a silly argument to make.

Kaprizov was injured and came back just before the playoffs started. His playoff performance was highly disappointing, but one that has at least some semblance of a valid explanation. Kaprizov also get major props for basically dragging a mediocre team into the playoffs.

 

[crazyfisherman]

That's crazy man. Lindholm was the most important player on a team that didn't make the playoffs. Hintz was the most important player on a team that went to game 6 of the conference finals. It's not the same.



Unless some new info has come out since the last time I saw an actual offer from a Flames fan, the "quibbling about the secondary stuff" has come down to whether the "secondary stuff" is a 3rd round pick/cap dump like Foligno, or if it's another 1st+2nd round pick. So that's a pretty major chasm.

Saying hintz is the most important player on the stars is such a joke take. Choose between miro, Robertson and hintz i guarantee you hintz is first off the team. Hintz is the 3rd or 4th best player on hes own team.

 

[AKL]

I love Lindholm. I was a big advocate for trading for him before he was moved to Calgary. I'd still love him on my team. I believe I've said I'd offer Rossi+1st for him in one of these threads this week. He's a great player.

But I'm trying to be realistic about what level of player he is. Maybe that's because my team isn't the one that's about to lose him. Maybe if my team was the team trading him I'd be a little more biased too. He's not a play driver. He's not an elite offensive center. He's a top complementary top six center. He's very good defensively. He can fill a 1C role in the sense that he's not Warren Peters or Ryan Hartman. He's never going to lead a good team in scoring.

His production was on par with guys like Dylan Stome, Vincent Trochek, Joel Eriksson Ek, Robert Thomas, Nick Suzuki. I don't consider any of them 1C's either, and I wouldn't give up Rossi+1st+1st+2nd for them.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I would wager most routine trade negotiations aren't that far apart in value. The difference between a 1st+2nd and 3rd+Foligno is not small.

It’s finding common ground between the 1st and the 3rd.

 

[AKL]

It’s finding common ground between the 1st and the 3rd.

So what is the common ground between Rossi+1st+1st+2nd and Rossi+1st+3rd?

This is a 70 point center with one year remaining on his contract, mind you.

 

[NiagaraKraken]

Gotta imagine Seattle would be in play here. Division rival tho.

 

[HighLifeMan]

My insistence on discrediting Lindholm is because this is a discussion board, and I'm discussing how Lindholm isn't as good as you're trying to make him out to be.

Like you actually said (presumably with a straight face) that we shouldn't put any stock into Hintz's playoff run this year because it was just a hot streak at the right time. Meanwhile, you're pulling out all the excuses for how Lindholm would have scored 72 points (his average per 82 with Calgary) instead of 64 points if only he had better wingers, or that Lindholm was in fact the one that carried Tkachuk and Gaudreau to their 100+ point seasons by "doing all the heavy lifting".

You are bending over backwards to make Lindholm look better than he is, and you are sweeping everything that says otherwise under the rug as trivial.

So what is your insistence on pumping Lindholm's tires? Is your end goal to get people on a message board to agree to offer you the asinine request of top prospect+1st+1st+2nd that some of your fellow Flames fans have asked for? Will that make you guys feel better when he ultimately doesn't return that because he's clearly not worth that?

1. Where did I say Hintz' playoff performance was meaningless? It got his team to the third round. That means something, but it doesn't catapult him into some untouchable tier of talent.. Compare the 2,3,4 year averages of these players and make a fair and honest assessment of what they provide in all areas of the game. 19 game sample sizes don't work for me.

2. You can call them excuses all you want but I am simply pointing out reasons as to why his production dipped since you continue to harp on it. Lindholm played mid to low second line minutes alongside secondary talent and still produced at a very respectable rate offensively. This was under the very same coach who squeaked a massive 55 points out of Jonathan Huberdeau. Expecting any player to produce at their best under such restraints is unfair. Additionally as I keep mentioning - there is far more to the game of hockey than offense, and Lindholm touches every other aspect in a very positive manner. His analytics, his Selke nomination, his teammates production when paired with him all speak to that.

3. What have I swept under the rug? You point to Lindholm being a *complementary* piece due to his linemates producing more than him, but then completely overlook Roope Hintz producing 34 points less than his linemate, nor has he ever led a team in scoring over the course of a season. Why don't these concerns apply to Hintz?

4. I am pumping his tires because he is a fantastic hockey player that I would hate to see leave. I am certain I will be displeased with any deal involving Lindholm as it's a trade that makes this team considerably worse. I think a proposal along the lines of Rossi, 1st, roster player (middleton?) and maybe a b level asset would be fair in terms of value. For all we know Calgary management may have little interest in a Rossi and a deal to Minessota is dead on arrival to begin with.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

So what is the common ground between Rossi+1st+1st+2nd and Rossi+1st+3rd?

This is a 70 point center with one year remaining on his contract, mind you.

Rossi + 21 + 2nd + whatever we can get for Foligno somewhere if it’s at least a 2nd rounder probably.

Or we add in a 2nd 1st and Calgary adds a 2nd, and we keep what we get for Foligno. Wouldn’t be ideal, but should probably at least be discussed.

Obviously this wouldn’t be for 1 year of Lindholm. That worry would have to be quashed in whatever way it can.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Saying hintz is the most important player on the stars is such a joke take. Choose between miro, Robertson and hintz i guarantee you hintz is first off the team. Hintz is the 3rd or 4th best player on hes own team.

Even just comparing them this year they really aren't that far apart at all at 5v5 play.
Hintz vs Lindholm
The real gap was actual Goals For percent this year. That is more in testament to how bad Markstrom was for the first like 5 month of the season, besides that their their Corse For %, Shots For %, and expected Goals For % were all very close.

 

[AKL]

Rossi + 21 + 2nd + whatever we can get for Foligno somewhere if it’s at least a 2nd rounder probably.

Or we add in a 2nd 1st and Calgary adds a 2nd, and we keep what we get for Foligno. Wouldn’t be ideal, but should probably at least be discussed.

Obviously this wouldn’t be for 1 year of Lindholm. That worry would have to be quashed in whatever way it can.

So the compromise to Rossi+1st+1st+2nd vs Rossi+1st+3rd is Rossi+1st+2nd+2nd? That hardly seems like a compromise. Why not Rossi+1st+3rd+3rd?
Or Rossi+1st+1st+2nd for Lindholm+2nd? Yeah that doesn't move the needle much when we're still giving up Rossi+1st+1st. The only change there is we move up ~5-10 picks in the second round?

Let's call it Rossi+1st+Foligno for Lindholm. Calgary gets their prospect and a first, then whatever they want to use Foligno for, while we get Lindholm+cap space to fit Lindholm? If Foligno is worth a 2nd, that's Rossi+1st+2nd. More than fair for a 70 point center.

 

[Bond]

So the compromise to Rossi+1st+1st+2nd vs Rossi+1st+3rd is Rossi+1st+2nd+2nd? That hardly seems like a compromise. Why not Rossi+1st+3rd+3rd?
Or Rossi+1st+1st+2nd for Lindholm+2nd? Yeah that doesn't move the needle much when we're still giving up Rossi+1st+1st. The only change there is we move up ~5-10 picks in the second round?

Let's call it Rossi+1st+Foligno for Lindholm. Calgary gets their prospect and a first, then whatever they want to use Foligno for, while we get Lindholm+cap space to fit Lindholm? If Foligno is worth a 2nd, that's Rossi+1st+2nd. More than fair for a 70 point center.

Does Rossi suck now lol

 

[AKL]

Does Rossi suck now lol

He doesn't suck, he still projects as a top six two-way center. If he still had the value he had when he was drafted, he wouldn't be anywhere near a conversation about Elias Lindholm.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

So the compromise to Rossi+1st+1st+2nd vs Rossi+1st+3rd is Rossi+1st+2nd+2nd? That hardly seems like a compromise. Why not Rossi+1st+3rd+3rd?
Or Rossi+1st+1st+2nd for Lindholm+2nd? Yeah that doesn't move the needle much when we're still giving up Rossi+1st+1st. The only change there is we move up ~5-10 picks in the second round?

Let's call it Rossi+1st+Foligno for Lindholm. Calgary gets their prospect and a first, then whatever they want to use Foligno for, while we get Lindholm+cap space to fit Lindholm? If Foligno is worth a 2nd, that's Rossi+1st+2nd. More than fair for a 70 point center.

A compromise, yes. Not the compromise to end all compromises. I certainly give it more thought than I do Rossi + 1st + 1st + 2nd.

If Calgary is fine with the two 3rds, by all means.

 

[AKL]

A compromise, yes. Not the compromise to end all compromises. I certainly give it more thought than I do Rossi + 1st + 1st + 2nd.

If Calgary is fine with the two 3rds, by all means.

Well I'm looking, but so far the only deals I've really seen are from one Flames fan who's expecting something similar to Rossi+1st+1st+2nd or Sillinger+Boqvist+1st+2nd and laughs at anything below that.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Well I'm looking, but so far the only deals I've really seen are from one Flames fan who's expecting something similar to Rossi+1st+1st+2nd or Sillinger+Boqvist+1st+2nd and laughs at anything below that.

I would expect nothing less of any fan of any team.

 

[AKL]

I would expect nothing less of any fan of any team.

Then why are you here trying to find common ground?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Then why are you here trying to find common ground?

I don’t think that’s quite what I’d call it.

 

[Bond]

He doesn't suck, he still projects as a top six two-way center. If he still had the value he had when he was drafted, he wouldn't be anywhere near a conversation about Elias Lindholm.

Yeah, I don’t follow the Wild closely so was surprised a Wild fan put his name forward. Regressed a bit more than expected?