Olli Juolevi makes his NHL debut

[Fatass]

Sure, but at this point, there needs to be actual evidence he's more than a 6/7 d-man on a bad defensive team. Otherwise, he is what he is. Whether that's because of injury history, or development, or whatever, he's at the point where you can't keep hoping for potential to kick in.

The other factor is that he could easily be overtaken by other prospects who've been drafted after him. Like, if you were forced to choose between Juolevi or Rathbone, who would you choose?

Bone is a special player. That’s why it’s so important during a rebuilding phase as early to have lots of extra picks, because somebody of the top picks will not work out, but the extra picks might land a Bone, who makes up for that miss. Or, if OJ is good too, then one of Bone or OJ can be traded to fill a need elsewhere.

 

[Javaman]

It would be if you leave out his hip, knee and back surgeries, and 2.5 years of rehabbing.
His last healthy season was in Finland.

Well, see my reply to Luckylarry.

At some point, you just need to acknowledge "what is" instead of clinging to "what might be."

I'm a Canucks fan and would love nothing more than to see them win the Cup before I die. If OJ becomes a legit top 4 d-man, I'd be thrilled, despite my conviction that Benning is a terrible GM.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Well, see my reply to Luckylarry.

At some point, you just need to acknowledge "what is" instead of clinging to "what might be."

I'm a Canucks fan and would love nothing more than to see them win the Cup before I die. If OJ becomes a legit top 4 d-man, I'd be thrilled, despite my conviction that Benning is a terrible GM.

As I said, he's been injured..he's only 22..He's not a homerun pick, we all realize that..... but at least we have to give him an opportunity and put him in a situation to succeed.
How is 17 NHL games a big enough sample size?

 

[Javaman]

Bone is a special player. That’s why it’s so important during a rebuilding phase as early to have lots of extra picks, because somebody of the top picks will not work out, but the extra picks might land a Bone, who makes up for that miss. Or, if OJ is good too, then one of Bone or OJ can be traded to fill a need elsewhere.

Sorry, but I don't see how this addresses any of the points I made in the post you're replying to.

 

[Javaman]

As I said, he's been injured..he's only 22..He's not a homerun pick, we all realize that..... but at least we have to give him an opportunity and put him in a situation to succeed.
How is 17 NHL games a big enough sample size?

I never said that 17 games was a big enough sample size. You're not trying to set up a strawman are you?

My point is that such a small sample size for a D+5 pick is probably a better indicator of OJ's future than his putative "potential" given that he can't crack the lineup of a defensively poor team like the Canucks. The fact remains that he's getting games now because of injuries, trades, suspensions, and COVID protocols rather than his ability as an NHL level player.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

DP

 

[Javaman]

As I said, he's been injured..he's only 22..He's not a homerun pick, we all realize that..... but at least we have to give him an opportunity and put him in a situation to succeed.
How is 17 NHL games a big enough sample size?

I realize I'm nitpicking a bit here, but the bolded phrase is the type of commentary that really drags down HFCanucks IMO.

Things would be so much better here if certain posters didn't resolutely insist upon distorting reality with euphemistic phrasing like the bolded one above.

It was a bad pick. Just describe it as such. These euphemisms make things worse, not better.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I never said that 17 games was a big enough sample size. You're not trying to set up a strawman are you?

My point is that such a small sample size for a D+5 pick is probably a better indicator of OJ's future than his putative "potential" given that he can't crack the lineup of a defensively poor team like the Canucks. The fact remains that he's getting games now because of injuries, trades, suspensions, and COVID protocols rather than his ability as an NHL level player.

He's only played 17 games because he's been rehabbing the last 2.5 years...This has been explained to you numerous times.
He's been the 6-7 D man most of the year, the reason he didn't go back in the lineup was because of cap reasons..You're ill informed.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I realize I'm nitpicking a bit here, but the bolded phrase is the type of commentary that really drags down HFCanucks IMO.

Things would be so much better here if certain posters didn't resolutely insist upon distorting reality with euphemistic phrasing like the bolded one above.

It was a bad pick. Just describe it as such. These euphemisms make things worse, not better.

17 NHL games is too small a sample size to start calling them 'bad', or a 'bust'
It wasnt a home run, neither was the guy picked before him, but listening to non stop bellyaching about it, gets old.

 

[Javaman]

He's only played 17 games because he's been rehabbing the last 2.5 years...This has been explained to you numerous times.
He's been the 6-7 D man most of the year, the reason he didn't go back in the lineup was because of cap reasons..You're ill informed.

So which is it?

He's only played 17 games because of all the rehab he's been doing?

Or he's only played 17 games because of cap reasons?

Or he's only played 17 games because he wasn't a "home run" pick at 5OA?

But, I will admit it's pretty sweet to observe you've decided to double down on the "17 game" strawman. Never change PoM, never change.

Pop quiz: Which of your specious rationalizations makes Benning look less incompetent?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So which is it?

He's only played 17 games because of all the rehab he's been doing?

Or he's only played 17 games because of cap reasons?

Or he's only played 17 games because he wasn't a "home run" pick at 5OA?

But, I will admit it's pretty sweet to observe you've decided to double down on the "17 game" strawman. Never change PoM, never change.

Pop quiz: Which of your specious rationalizations makes Benning look less incompetent?

Its been explained to you...but if you dont like the answer its always a strawman or whatever..lol...Go back to the management thread, or the tank thread.

 

[F A N]

My point is that such a small sample size for a D+5 pick is probably a better indicator of OJ's future than his putative "potential" given that he can't crack the lineup of a defensively poor team like the Canucks. The fact remains that he's getting games now because of injuries, trades, suspensions, and COVID protocols rather than his ability as an NHL level player.

He also didn't get games earlier because of injuries which affected his ability to develop into an NHL level player. His development was clearly affected and to deny that is being disingenuous. You should take your own advice. You can call him a bad pick without pushing a false narrative.

 

[Javaman]

He also didn't get games earlier because of injuries which affected his ability to develop into an NHL level player. His development was clearly affected and to deny that is being disingenuous. You should take your own advice. You can call him a bad pick without pushing a false narrative.

Where did I claim that his injuries had no effect on his ability to develop into an NHL level player?

 

[Javaman]

17 NHL games is too small a sample size to start calling them 'bad', or a 'bust'
It wasnt a home run, neither was the guy picked before him, but listening to non stop bellyaching about it, gets old.

Where did I claim that 17 NHL games is enough to label Juolevi "bad" or a "bust"?

 

[F A N]

Where did I claim that his injuries had no effect on his ability to develop into an NHL level player?

So you admit that his injuries contributed to Juolevi having "such a small sample size for a D+5 pick" then?

 

[Javaman]

So you admit that his injuries contributed to Juolevi having "such a small sample size for a D+5 pick" then?

And you have the f***ing gall to accuse me of being disingenuous.

SMH

 

[F A N]

And you have the f***ing gall to accuse me of being disingenuous.

SMH

Umm... yes? Why wouldn’t I have the gall? Are you somebody that I should be careful of?

 

[IslandBeast]

He also didn't get games earlier because of injuries which affected his ability to develop into an NHL level player. His development was clearly affected and to deny that is being disingenuous. You should take your own advice. You can call him a bad pick without pushing a false narrative.

His development also stagnated before the injuries, the end to his junior career was underwhelming to say the least. He was okay in Finland, nothing special for a 5th pick. The pick has been looking bad for a long time now

 

[AppleHoneySauce]

His development also stagnated before the injuries, the end to his junior career was underwhelming to say the least. He was okay in Finland, nothing special for a 5th pick. The pick has been looking bad for a long time now

He was an awful pick. I don't think anyone is arguing other wise.
Sending him away though is pointless as we need cheap D at this point with the incoming cap shit show. Plus who knows what happens when playing him more. Now that he ain't injured it might lead to us getting a Top 4 or even high end top 6 dman out of it.

 

[Hit the post]

His development also stagnated before the injuries, the end to his junior career was underwhelming to say the least. He was okay in Finland, nothing special for a 5th pick. The pick has been looking bad for a long time now

It’s a combination of both. How much of each is probably the thing that is up to debate. He wasn’t progressing much, if any post-draft before his first major injury. The injuries added to his stagnant development.

 

[mriswith]

I'd be curious if there are any players who dealt with injuries like his for as long as he did, as early in his development as he had to deal with them, who ended up becoming top six forwards or top four dmen.

I didn't follow him in his draft or for two years after so I don't know what he looked like back then or where he was trending other than reading other people's reports. But I'd be surprised if any player could become an impact player after losing as much time as he did during the key developmental years.

 

[AppleHoneySauce]

I'd be curious if there are any players who dealt with injuries like his for as long as he did, as early in his development as he had to deal with them, who ended up becoming top six forwards or top four dmen.

Probably not many. If at all any did, but f*** it why not try is my mind set. Not like we will truly compete with the anchor of a bottom six anyways so i figure why not try and teach/develop him. Set him up with Horvats skating coach seeing as i doubt greener will help.

 

[TheOtherGM]

At this point I have zero interest in re-hashing what could have been. It's a blown pick relative to expectations and I don't think anyone can argue that at this point.
What I am interested in talking about is, what is Juolevi now and what can he be going forward?
-------------------
First questions: What is he now, as in strengths and weaknesses? Is he out of his depth? Is he proving he at least belongs at this level?
Second question: Are his weaknesses things that can be fixed?
Third question: What is his perceived upside? What does he project to be at this point in his career?
-------------------
All I ask as I try to gain insight into this player is that you leave his draft position at the side of the road and evaluate him as if he were a potential free agent the Canucks could add to the roster.

 

[F A N]

I'd be curious if there are any players who dealt with injuries like his for as long as he did, as early in his development as he had to deal with them, who ended up becoming top six forwards or top four dmen.

I didn't follow him in his draft or for two years after so I don't know what he looked like back then or where he was trending other than reading other people's reports. But I'd be surprised if any player could become an impact player after losing as much time as he did during the key developmental years.

There are probably a few but I think most don't end up reaching their potential. The odds are better when the injury came in their draft eligible year.

Bryan Allen and Thomas Hickey might be good examples. Both missed time due to injuries post draft but did go on to develop into top 4 Dmen for a few years. Didn't quite reach their expected potential though. Ryan Murray as well.

 

[CanuckleBerry]

Has Juolevi ever played the Right side? Curious if he would be able to adapt to that. I think he probably has the IQ for it. The thought crosses my mind because most of our best defensive skaters and puck movers play or can play the Left side. So I am curious of a more conservative player like Juolevi moving over for the sake of a pairing.