Speculation: Offseason Thread XIX: Alright, Alright, Alright...

[bernmeister]

Yet another Bern team that loses a ton of games.

Well Mr. Ogrodnick, you are certainly not a doctor of letters.

that is an overly succinct criticism without any substantiation whatsoever!

You are at liberty to make that kind of charge, sir.
But do us all the honor and courtesy of qualifying why.

Although a premium in assets was paid, a premium was received.
I think the only weak link in the chain is if Canes let Hanifin go at any price, esp as ELC.

It is not logical to simply say that team would be such a loser of games when it would be younger, have more potential, be better poised for the exp draft, etc.

I'll see what ya come up with by Wed.

 

[Avery16]

If no one criticizes the trade proposals, they end up being pretty much just weekly. If you start analyzing, it can drag on for days.

 

[pld459666]

If no one criticizes the trade proposals, they end up being pretty much just weekly. If you start analyzing, it can drag on for days.

I stopped responding. He places minimal value on our assets while over valuing the players we are getting all the while leaving the NYR's the worse off team. Now and for years to come. Numerous posters have leveled the same issues towards him and it's in one ear and out the other as he continues to post bad trade after bad trade and then directs you to open your mind to think outside the box. Like that's going g to make a bad trade any better. SMH

 

[Mac n Gs]

Bern, just a heads up, the Sabres use Reinhart as a RW. He switches back and forth between flanking Ryan O'Reilly and Eichel.

 

[smoneil]

I stopped responding. He places minimal value on our assets while over valuing the players we are getting all the while leaving the NYR's the worse off team. Now and for years to come. Numerous posters have leveled the same issues towards him and it's in one ear and out the other as he continues to post bad trade after bad trade and then directs you to open your mind to think outside the box. Like that's going g to make a bad trade any better. SMH

Yup. This. There have been other "video game" trade posters, but at least they mixed it up. This is just the same set of trades repackaged and spammed all over the boards. It's entirely possible that Bern has more "McD for Trouba, Trouba for Reinhart, Stepan + for Pesce +" posts than I have TOTAL posts over the span of a decade. And because the posts are SO out there, they inevitably get quoted by people who don't know him, so ignore list doesn't even really work.

 

[Kovalev27]

Zucc's prob been team Europe's best player in these pre season games

I'm still shocked we haven't traded him with the guys we've brought in this summer.

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

Well Mr. Ogrodnick, you are certainly not a doctor of letters.

that is an overly succinct criticism without any substantiation whatsoever!

You are at liberty to make that kind of charge, sir.
But do us all the honor and courtesy of qualifying why.

Although a premium in assets was paid, a premium was received.
I think the only weak link in the chain is if Canes let Hanifin go at any price, esp as ELC.

It is not logical to simply say that team would be such a loser of games when it would be younger, have more potential, be better poised for the exp draft, etc.

I'll see what ya come up with by Wed.

Yes, having a bunch of unproven young assets taking up top minutes always works out, just ask edmonton.

You make trades that would never happen, trade our best defenseman on a great contract for another defenseman that you immediately flip for an unproven center just to facilitate a trade of Stepan based on your own personal bias. All so you can once again put youngsters in positions and situations that they are in no way ready for. Plus why should the Rangers gut their roster in such a way to prepare for an expansion draft where they will lose 1 player. Its like you found a dent in your dry wall and decided to burn your house down to fix it.

Unlike you, the Rangers are trying to win the cup.

 

[wafflepadsave]

People don't realize how much $ it takes to do anything other than a single camer a shoot anywhere. It is very expensive. For what MSG was getting I'm sure it wasn't cost effective.

No help from the NHL!

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

no, side of caution means if I am wrong and it is only NTC it is bad.

Cautious is presuming I am right and it IS nMc and we prepare for the worst.

I am going to try that with my GF

 

[darko]

Yes, having a bunch of unproven young assets taking up top minutes always works out, just ask edmonton.

You make trades that would never happen, trade our best defenseman on a great contract for another defenseman that you immediately flip for an unproven center just to facilitate a trade of Stepan based on your own personal bias. All so you can once again put youngsters in positions and situations that they are in no way ready for. Plus why should the Rangers gut their roster in such a way to prepare for an expansion draft where they will lose 1 player. Its like you found a dent in your dry wall and decided to burn your house down to fix it.

Unlike you, the Rangers are trying to win the cup.

Well said.

 

[darko]

I am going to try that with my GF

You are in trouble my friend.

 

[Miamipuck]

Yup. This. There have been other "video game" trade posters, but at least they mixed it up. This is just the same set of trades repackaged and spammed all over the boards. It's entirely possible that Bern has more "McD for Trouba, Trouba for Reinhart, Stepan + for Pesce +" posts than I have TOTAL posts over the span of a decade. And because the posts are SO out there, they inevitably get quoted by people who don't know him, so ignore list doesn't even really work.

Unfortunately, it really doesn't. If I want decent fantasy I can read GRRM or watch Star Wars.

 

[Igor Shestyorkin]

The Rangers really need to just cut out certain forwards(Glass), and maybe move out a few for a D-man that can help now. I just hope we don't trade Zucc or anything. No one's replacing his production as of now.

 

[Savant]

Snip

Bern

Let's talk about Winnipeg.

I am goin to go in a different direction than your critics and say I can certainly see the logic of the Rangers trading McDonagh for Trouba. The Rangers may not want to pay McDonagh's next contract and they can control Trouba much easier. Not to mention that lefty/righty thing. Here comes the part where we need to focus though.

Let's work off the assumption that the Rangers won't trade Stepan (rightfully or wrongfully) because they just moved Brassard. I do think there is a chance that they could move him for multiple assets around the deadline of they are scared by his upcoming NTC, so we are going to put a pin in the Stepan talk for now, because while there is logic, the timing isn't right.

Also lets work on the assumption that Buffalo does now want to trade Reinhart. I think this is very safe to say and I don't think anyone will realistically think that Reinhart is available. But this is okay. Why? Because the player that the Rangers need is Trouba, not Reinhart. Let's continue.

So let's say the Rangers move McDonagh for Trouba. This leaves a very big hole at LHD, but fixes things pretty well at RHD. However that being said the Rangers shouldn't necessarily be downgrading on position to upgrade another in a relatively lateral fashion. Therefore what you have would be this.

18-JT
76-8
NH-6/5

This isn't so great but if we look at this and we assume Staal and Girardi are untouchable to move, how do we make this better. Let's stay in Winnipeg. How do we get the Jets to add a month minutes eating LHD to the deal? They happen to have Tobias Enstrom on the roster. How do the Rangers get Enstrom back to keep the defense at a strong level? Well unfortunately you start with McIlrath who is honestly probably not long for the team anyway. Winnipeg is probably a good spot for him and he replaces Trouba on that roster. Now here is where things can get interesting. Do the Rangers move Skjei to get a deal done? Perhaps they do. I don't really want to move Skjei but to get Enstrom and Trouba it makes some sense. This gives the Rangers:

TE-8
18-JT
NH-5

I like this for couple of reasons. Trouba has the best upside in the deal. This is also a realistic way to modernize and retool the defense. Also, Enstrom only has two years left on his deal, which means that you can either let him walk for free cap space (5.75 hit), trade him to recoup assets next season as a rental, or sign him to a deal probably less than you would have paid to keep the incumbents. Also LHD are easier to replace than RHD so the Rangers will be able to find a replacement.

So if you want to keep a balance sheet you have

McDonagh, Skjei, McIlrath (4.7+.925+.8= 6.425)

For

Enstrom & Trouba
(5.75+RFA rights)

Rangers can try to bridge Trouba for a season and then resign him to a cheaper deal than McDonagh's next using the expiring money from Enstrom (resigns at discount, Graves steps in, NYR pick/trade/sign/etc) and Girardi or Staal, if not both with be bought out out/retire by them (more cap space). To finish off the deal, the Rangers can add a forward and Winnipeg can send equivalent assets back too, but that's for another post. Scheifele is obviously untouchable to Winnipeg for an infinite amount of reasons but maybe Rangers can take a chance on an Armia type. Maybe a Lemieux, Petan type. You get the idea. Rangers then continue to use their forward depth to refill some assets but again that's a post for another time. Obviously the Rangers give up a lot but they become a heck of a lot more sustainable from a roster standpoint. Can obviously tweak a bit but that's what's I've got. Hopefully you reply with some restraint and we can pick brains without going too off the wall.

 

[Idlerlee]

Zucc's prob been team Europe's best player in these pre season games

I'm still shocked we haven't traded him with the guys we've brought in this summer.

You might have answered your own question. None of the guys we brought in can replace zucc anytime soon. If the front office think we can win, they'll go for it with the best team possible

 

[JanErixon20]

Trade Proposal:

Rangers team to Carolina for the Hurricanes. Team immediately moves from NY to Quebec City.

 

[bernmeister]

Bern, just a heads up, the Sabres use Reinhart as a RW. He switches back and forth between flanking Ryan O'Reilly and Eichel.

Thanks, my good man.
We know however that Reinhart is qualified as a C.
It is not as if that were not the case and we are suggesting let's convert a non-C w/no experience into a C.

And your update actually proves my point
Sabes can afford to move him 'cause they have enough top 6 in the pivot
or is it pivot in the top 6?

 

[pld459666]

Bern

Let's talk about Winnipeg.

I am goin to go in a different direction than your critics and say I can certainly see the logic of the Rangers trading McDonagh for Trouba. The Rangers may not want to pay McDonagh's next contract and they can control Trouba much easier. Not to mention that lefty/righty thing. Here comes the part where we need to focus though.

Let's work off the assumption that the Rangers won't trade Stepan (rightfully or wrongfully) because they just moved Brassard. I do think there is a chance that they could move him for multiple assets around the deadline of they are scared by his upcoming NTC, so we are going to put a pin in the Stepan talk for now, because while there is logic, the timing isn't right.

Also lets work on the assumption that Buffalo does now want to trade Reinhart. I think this is very safe to say and I don't think anyone will realistically think that Reinhart is available. But this is okay. Why? Because the player that the Rangers need is Trouba, not Reinhart. Let's continue.

So let's say the Rangers move McDonagh for Trouba. This leaves a very big hole at LHD, but fixes things pretty well at RHD. However that being said the Rangers shouldn't necessarily be downgrading on position to upgrade another in a relatively lateral fashion. Therefore what you have would be this.

18-JT
76-8
NH-6/5

This isn't so great but if we look at this and we assume Staal and Girardi are untouchable to move, how do we make this better. Let's stay in Winnipeg. How do we get the Jets to add a month minutes eating LHD to the deal? They happen to have Tobias Enstrom on the roster. How do the Rangers get Enstrom back to keep the defense at a strong level? Well unfortunately you start with McIlrath who is honestly probably not long for the team anyway. Winnipeg is probably a good spot for him and he replaces Trouba on that roster. Now here is where things can get interesting. Do the Rangers move Skjei to get a deal done? Perhaps they do. I don't really want to move Skjei but to get Enstrom and Trouba it makes some sense. This gives the Rangers:

TE-8
18-JT
NH-5

I like this for couple of reasons. Trouba has the best upside in the deal. This is also a realistic way to modernize and retool the defense. Also, Enstrom only has two years left on his deal, which means that you can either let him walk for free cap space (5.75 hit), trade him to recoup assets next season as a rental, or sign him to a deal probably less than you would have paid to keep the incumbents. Also LHD are easier to replace than RHD so the Rangers will be able to find a replacement.

So if you want to keep a balance sheet you have

McDonagh, Skjei, McIlrath (4.7+.925+.8= 6.425)

For

Enstrom & Trouba
(5.75+RFA rights)

Rangers can try to bridge Trouba for a season and then resign him to a cheaper deal than McDonagh's next using the expiring money from Enstrom (resigns at discount, Graves steps in, NYR pick/trade/sign/etc) and Girardi or Staal, if not both with be bought out out/retire by them (more cap space). To finish off the deal, the Rangers can add a forward and Winnipeg can send equivalent assets back too, but that's for another post. Scheifele is obviously untouchable to Winnipeg for an infinite amount of reasons but maybe Rangers can take a chance on an Armia type. Maybe a Lemieux, Petan type. You get the idea. Rangers then continue to use their forward depth to refill some assets but again that's a post for another time. Obviously the Rangers give up a lot but they become a heck of a lot more sustainable from a roster standpoint. Can obviously tweak a bit but that's what's I've got. Hopefully you reply with some restraint and we can pick brains without going too off the wall.

You at least stayed with his theme of making the team worse so in that sense I applaud the effort.

Enstrom is a shell and is and has been fading. I wouldn't part with Skjei alone for that player today. Wrong side of 30 clearly declining and makes almost 5 million more? Hard pass.

And if Trouba IS a target you get him to pair with McDonagh not at the expense of McDonagh

 

[Savant]

You at least stayed with his theme of making the team worse so in that sense I applaud the effort.

Environmental is a shell and is and has been fading. I wouldn't part with Skjei alone for that player today. Wrong side of 30 clearly declining and makes almost 5 million more? Hard pass.

And if Troubadour IS a target you get him to pair with McDonagh not at the expense of McDonagh

Well you don't get Trouba without parting with McDonagh. I actually don't think this makes the team worse. It just retools the defense a bit. McDonagh hasn't been great and his next contract scares me a little. And again this is framework. Winnipeg is very deep in terms of prospects and assets, which you could recoup in a deal like this. Enstrom is not a long term move but he doesn't have to be. He is still a minutes eater and he can actually move the puck out of his own zone. That and he plays hard. Getting him out of the Central/West probably helps him out. Also, if he doesn't pan out he is easier to move, and/or that salary comes off the book and it's an extra 5.75 of cap space. And if he does pan out, then you can keep him with a lesser commitment.

If you get the right mix back from Winnipeg this is actually not a bad start to a deal.

 

[Nickmo82]

You at least stayed with his theme of making the team worse so in that sense I applaud the effort.

Environmental is a shell and is and has been fading. I wouldn't part with Skjei alone for that player today. Wrong side of 30 clearly declining and makes almost 5 million more? Hard pass.

And if Troubadour IS a target you get him to pair with McDonagh not at the expense of McDonagh

Those are some quality nicknames/auto-corrects.

 

[bernmeister]

If no one criticizes the trade proposals, they end up being pretty much just weekly. If you start analyzing, it can drag on for days.

you are at liberty to ignore me or any one else, but have such a closed mind at your own peril

I stopped responding. He places minimal value on our assets while over valuing the players we are getting all the while leaving the NYR's the worse off team. Now and for years to come. Numerous posters have leveled the same issues towards him and it's in one ear and out the other as he continues to post bad trade after bad trade and then directs you to open your mind to think outside the box. Like that's going g to make a bad trade any better. SMH

Yes, having a bunch of unproven young assets taking up top minutes always works out, just ask edmonton.

You make trades that would never happen, trade our best defenseman on a great contract for another defenseman that you immediately flip for an unproven center just to facilitate a trade of Stepan based on your own personal bias. All so you can once again put youngsters in positions and situations that they are in no way ready for. Plus why should the Rangers gut their roster in such a way to prepare for an expansion draft where they will lose 1 player. Its like you found a dent in your dry wall and decided to burn your house down to fix it.

Unlike you, the Rangers are trying to win the cup.

emphasized: this is the core of the argument.
Your rejections are ad hominum.
Please qualify why.

My adds are high quality talent. Esp Reinhart and Hanifin.
Yes NHL exp is minimal, in other cases non existent, but they project high
MATH probability and LOGIC suggest higher rated guys MORE LIKELY TO SUCCEED.

You conveniently ignore that fact -- which again, I am not saying it is a guarantee they do succeed, just that it is more likely that they do.

Fair and honest criticism is fine. However,
It is not fair or honest to say "unproven young assets" or similar IF you are lumping them on the same level of success with other generic prospects/young players. They are far more likely to succeed, with possible star upside.


As to bold, again, stop with the foolish, ineffective win now,

take our lumps quickly and efficiently as I am proposing and we minimize, maybe even avoid time where we cannot compete, with upside we can be good enough to win it all.

Doing it your way is another year of the same status quo.
Not good enough to win the cup.

You know what they say about doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.

 

[bernmeister]

Bern

Let's talk about Winnipeg.

I am goin to go in a different direction than your critics and say I can certainly see the logic of the Rangers trading McDonagh for Trouba. The Rangers may not want to pay McDonagh's next contract and they can control Trouba much easier. Not to mention that lefty/righty thing. Here comes the part where we need to focus though.

Let's work off the assumption that the Rangers won't trade Stepan (rightfully or wrongfully) because they just moved Brassard. I do think there is a chance that they could move him for multiple assets around the deadline of they are scared by his upcoming NTC, so we are going to put a pin in the Stepan talk for now, because while there is logic, the timing isn't right.

Also lets work on the assumption that Buffalo does now want to trade Reinhart. I think this is very safe to say and I don't think anyone will realistically think that Reinhart is available. But this is okay. Why? Because the player that the Rangers need is Trouba, not Reinhart. Let's continue.

So let's say the Rangers move McDonagh for Trouba. This leaves a very big hole at LHD, but fixes things pretty well at RHD. However that being said the Rangers shouldn't necessarily be downgrading on position to upgrade another in a relatively lateral fashion. Therefore what you have would be this.

18-JT
76-8
NH-6/5

This isn't so great but if we look at this and we assume Staal and Girardi are untouchable to move, how do we make this better. Let's stay in Winnipeg. How do we get the Jets to add a month minutes eating LHD to the deal? They happen to have Tobias Enstrom on the roster. How do the Rangers get Enstrom back to keep the defense at a strong level? Well unfortunately you start with McIlrath who is honestly probably not long for the team anyway. Winnipeg is probably a good spot for him and he replaces Trouba on that roster. Now here is where things can get interesting. Do the Rangers move Skjei to get a deal done? Perhaps they do. I don't really want to move Skjei but to get Enstrom and Trouba it makes some sense. This gives the Rangers:

TE-8
18-JT
NH-5

I like this for couple of reasons. Trouba has the best upside in the deal. This is also a realistic way to modernize and retool the defense. Also, Enstrom only has two years left on his deal, which means that you can either let him walk for free cap space (5.75 hit), trade him to recoup assets next season as a rental, or sign him to a deal probably less than you would have paid to keep the incumbents. Also LHD are easier to replace than RHD so the Rangers will be able to find a replacement.

So if you want to keep a balance sheet you have

McDonagh, Skjei, McIlrath (4.7+.925+.8= 6.425)

For

Enstrom & Trouba
(5.75+RFA rights)

Rangers can try to bridge Trouba for a season and then resign him to a cheaper deal than McDonagh's next using the expiring money from Enstrom (resigns at discount, Graves steps in, NYR pick/trade/sign/etc) and Girardi or Staal, if not both with be bought out out/retire by them (more cap space). To finish off the deal, the Rangers can add a forward and Winnipeg can send equivalent assets back too, but that's for another post. Scheifele is obviously untouchable to Winnipeg for an infinite amount of reasons but maybe Rangers can take a chance on an Armia type. Maybe a Lemieux, Petan type. You get the idea. Rangers then continue to use their forward depth to refill some assets but again that's a post for another time. Obviously the Rangers give up a lot but they become a heck of a lot more sustainable from a roster standpoint. Can obviously tweak a bit but that's what's I've got. Hopefully you reply with some restraint and we can pick brains without going too off the wall.

1. Kudos for showing an open mind

2 Quick thank you for an informative, intelligent post.

I disagree with some of the assumptions, but I will be a good guy here and after explaining why I disagree, I will respect this post on your terms and answer it based on your assumptions.

However, swamped for at least coupla days, anything other than short blurb reply not possible til then.

Til then

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Can we create a trade proposal thread or something like that? This used to be my go-to thread about offseason info, but now it's just full of bernmeister ****posts.

 

[Savant]

Can we create a trade proposal thread or something like that? This used to be my go-to thread about offseason info, but now it's just full of bernmeister ****posts.

I wouldn't mind a separate post for Trade Proposals and Projected Lineups. I asked one of the mods about doing so this summer and they declined. I do think that there is a place for it though. That being said everyone has a right to propose what they think and have it responded to accordingly if deemed fit. Yes I do think it can clog up threads but I have seen proposals way worse than the ones that you are referencing this summer and those weren't censored either.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

I wouldn't mind a separate post for Trade Proposals and Projected Lineups. I asked one of the mods about doing so this summer and they declined. I do think that there is a place for it though. That being said everyone has a right to propose what they think and have it responded to accordingly if deemed fit. Yes I do think it can clog up threads but I have seen proposals way worse than the ones that you are referencing this summer and those weren't censored either.

Yeah, we all have a ridiculous post here and there.

But, there's one poster who can't help continually making wall-of-text ****posts over and over again. I can't even read NYR threads on the trade board because of him. Every NYR trade thread becomes about trading half our team to get some unobtainable, unproven young player.

Oh, and let's dump Stepan for peanuts while we're at it.

Oh, and god forbid someone proposes trading Kreider.

He hijacks a pretty large percentage of threads. It's incredibly annoying. And, as another poster pointed out, you can't even ignore him, because people quote his ****posts.