The principle still exists though. Johnson is a Spitfire but there are 19 other teams that probably wouldn't touch him if the Spits tried to move him. Just as you said nobody would touch Dalton Young. If you win things will take care of themselves but if they don't play well it will just become a sideshow which isn't fair to Johnson and it falls at the feet of the organization.
*OFFICIAL* Windsor Spitfires 2013-14 Season Thread (Part 3)
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The principle still exists though. Johnson is a Spitfire but there are 19 other teams that probably wouldn't touch him if the Spits tried to move him. Just as you said nobody would touch Dalton Young. If you win things will take care of themselves but if they don't play well it will just become a sideshow which isn't fair to Johnson and it falls at the feet of the organization.
GBFP
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- Sep 24, 2009
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Has he denied being in the bar and having sex with a women in the bathroom? Or is he just denying ****** her and denying that he knew she was 16 years old. He damn well knew she was 16yo, so in the very least best case scenario from Ben's perspective we have an 18 yr old Ben Johnson having sex with a 16 yo female in the bathroom of a licensed downtown night club in the early morning hours. And in this perfect Ben Johnson scenario that other accuser is a bald faced liar who heard this account and said "Hell, I'm gonna lie and say that happened to me too" because I want to put myself out there and have to describe in intimate detail in a court of law, quite possibly with my parents in the court room what I believe happened to me.
And yet the Spits still use him in promotions and as a model to sell their merchandise - https://www.spitsgear.com/
Welcome to the Windsor Gong Show.
OHLTG
Registered User
East Side Marios has some of the best wings in the city...seriously. It's two-minutes from the arena.
Smoke n Spice has outstanding food, too. Their Southern Fried Catfish is some of the best fish and chips I've had.
BTW, the Poutine place I mentioned is right downtown by the Tunnel exit, so if you're taking that from the States, it's literally around the corner from where you'd come into Windsor. It's called "Frenchy's Poutinery."
As for the article on Johnson - right now, as far as I know, he's innocent until proven guilty. So, that means it's businesses as usual for the team. People can accuse and say he shouldn't be playing, but until he's proven guilty, he has every right to be there.
Young's situation is different in that the cops were present when he was actually doing some of his actions - resisting arrest and attempting to steal a rifle. You can't "he said/she said" that.
The Windsor Spitfires Hockey Club aren't the judge nor the jury.
Why should they be the ones to decide Ben's fate and rob him of a potentially lucrative career without him even being criminally convicted?
Are you proposing that Windsor just ends Johnson's career in the name of positive P.R.? What happens if Johnson is innocent?
Keep in mind that I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. I have no idea if Johnson is innocent or guilty.
All I know that Section 11(d) of the Canadian Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that Ben Johnson has the right to be presumed innocent and Section 11(f) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that Ben Johnson has the right to trial by jury.
I am proposing that the team seriously looks at some sort of discipline. They don't need to kick him off the team to send a message and for him to receive it. As I said Bowen and Clark broke team imposed rules and were suspended 3 games, Johnson is charged with a couple crimes and he won't miss a single game? The organization is sending a poor message just with that alone.
I know you're playing devils advocate but let's say a lawyer in this city gets charged with sexual assault there's a terrific chance he will have his license suspended by the law society pending review of the case and the ultimate verdict. I guess I am just surprised at the carte blanche teenage hockey players have just because they were drafted by an NHL team and think they are untouchable.
I don't deny Johnson has a right to be on the team. But the team also has a right to protect its image (and chose not to). BB quote ''..... we’re trying to win hockey games and we’re going to put the best players on the ice.†I'm sure does not come up when recruiting players and telling parents the Spitfire family will foster an atmosphere where your young boy will come home a better young man.
Having Johnson sign autographs, be the model poster boy for spitsgear or probably skating with the kids after games, I can probably accept on some level. My point of contention was BB's exuberance in defense of Johnson when he could have side stepped the issue with a terse 'no comment'.
I'm a huge fan of the spitfires and even this administration, but in this specific instance
I just wish it wasn't so front and center.
Having Johnson sign autographs, be the model poster boy for spitsgear or probably skating with the kids after games, I can probably accept on some level. My point of contention was BB's exuberance in defense of Johnson when he could have side stepped the issue with a terse 'no comment'.
I'm a huge fan of the spitfires and even this administration, but in this specific instance
I just wish it wasn't so front and center.
OHLTG
Registered User
Rayzor, here's the different I see:
Bowen/Clark - what they did was fact, team dealt with it.
Johnson - He said/she said to this point.
Until Johnson is proven guilty in a court of law, he has the same right to be at camp as anyone else.
Bowen/Clark - what they did was fact, team dealt with it.
Johnson - He said/she said to this point.
Until Johnson is proven guilty in a court of law, he has the same right to be at camp as anyone else.
Pukhogg
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- Aug 27, 2012
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IMO I think the brass of the organization were told by Ducharme not to comment or discuss anything with anyone especially the media. The way the Star screws things up just to enhance their stories, I would be telling the organization to keep absolutely quiet if I were his lawyer. It's a serious legal matter that's going to affect the lives of all those involved. It will all eventually come to the surface. The kid is innocent until proven guilty and charged. The team still has to move forward.
Who said he doesn't have the right to be at camp?
Right now the perception of the Spits is one that has very little direction provided by coach or management and these players run crazy off the ice with very little discipline being provided.
Should the Saginaw Spirit have kept Dalton Young? After all until Young is innocent until proven guilty in the court of law he has the right to be at camp.
OHLTG
Registered User
Like I said above, regarding Young - the difference between him and Johnson is Young did part of his actions right in front of the police. He's guilty of, if nothing else, resisting arrest (if I read the article correct) and trying to remove the gun from the police car. If that's punishable by jail time, then he shouldn't be at camp. Johnson's stuff has yet to be proven, thus punishment of any form, isn't necessarily required at this point.
As for the being at camp comment - I've taken the conversation here to imply he doesn't deserve to be on the team until this stuff is settled. That's all I was disagreeing with.
As for the being at camp comment - I've taken the conversation here to imply he doesn't deserve to be on the team until this stuff is settled. That's all I was disagreeing with.
GBFP
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- Sep 24, 2009
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Umm, Dalton Young hasn't been convicted on anything yet either. Police are just witnesses like anybody else here - you are saying they are judge and jury?. Nothing has been proven in a court of law. What he is accused of is punishable by jail time - but what Johnson is accused of is also punishable by jail time.
Seems to me a double standard here. Young is right to be kicked off the team eventhough he hasn't been tried or convicted - but Johnson deserves to be innocent until proven guilty and deserves to play and be a member of the team.
Spitsfires Org wouldn't be convicting Johnson - so innocent until proven guilty doesn't matter. The accepted facts in this case is enough to remove him from the team, or at least severely punish him. I don't believe anybody has challenged that he was underage in the club, and that he had sex with a girl he knew was 16yo in the washroom of the club. His conduct was detrimental to the team - the negative publicity his conduct brought on the team is enough to kick him off or punish him.
In the VERY LEAST there should be a zero tolerance crackdown on the whole team whereby if you're underage and caught drinking or in a club you are suspended 3-5 games, and the second offense you are traded or cut.
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punch1943
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Duff's column
Well written article by Duff in today's local rag. Let me be the first to admit I was wrong when I said he toed the company line when dealing with the Spits. This story will not please management but sometimes the truth hurts.
Not guilty until proven guilty certainly, but perhaps it might be prudent to use other faces when dealing with the public for the time being.
Enough said ....time to head to the WFCU....so I can see firsthand....
Well written article by Duff in today's local rag. Let me be the first to admit I was wrong when I said he toed the company line when dealing with the Spits. This story will not please management but sometimes the truth hurts.
Not guilty until proven guilty certainly, but perhaps it might be prudent to use other faces when dealing with the public for the time being.
Enough said ....time to head to the WFCU....so I can see firsthand....
The Dalton Young thing is not comparable in any sense, from all reports that I have read, the police arrived on scene while the situation was unfolding and were dealing with the crimes while they were happening.
With Johnson all we know is what has been in the papers which may or may not be completely accurate. I have a personal feeling, but I'll reserve that for the moment. With regards to the Spits reaction, they may be handcuffed at the moment and told by their lawyers not to do anything because a suspension could be perceived by the public (who could be potential jurors) as a sign of guilt and depending upon the results of a trial could open the Spits to a potential lawsuit.
As I said, I have a personal feeling regarding this mess, but I also remember the whole incident a few years ago with the Duke rugby team I think, so I am trying not to rush to judgement.
That's a terrific post Otto.
OHLTG if that was your daughter who was supposedly assaulted would you have the same thoughts on Ben Johnson playing?
OHLTG if that was your daughter who was supposedly assaulted would you have the same thoughts on Ben Johnson playing?
OHLTG
Registered User
If it was my daughter in the assault, I'd be wondering what the heck she was doing in the bar at age 16.
Anyway...training camp...
Tues morning scrimmage:
- ironically, Ben Johnson was the best player on the ice. He was a man on a mission. Very impressive.
- A very tight-knit affair. Not many great scoring chances for either team. Felt rather 'feeling out.'
- Sieloff was already getting under people's skin. No complaints.
- Tough to see who struggled, but I'd imagine Legend will cover that.
- Marra had two goals for the blue side, I believe. Don't know much about the kid, but that's impressive. Sanvido had a goal, too. Parked in front of the net and banged it home.
punch1943
Registered User
IMHO Team blue showed more zip than Team White which was bigger. Not very physical in th 1st...a bit more so in the 2nd...most checks were excuse me checks. What stood out to me more than anything were the small forwards on blue...probably different once it gets physical.
I liked the work ethic of Morgan from St Thomas and a big kid on white think his name was Mayea..not sure of spelling. Thought. Luchuk was bigger than he is...
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OHLTG
Registered User
I have the feeling Luchuk is built like a horse. He's not big out there, but he's listed at 5'9 198 or something. That's solid.
I won't be there this afternoon, as I'm hitting the Tigers game tonight with my dad. If anyone is going tomorrow morning, though, come say hello. I've usually got the Nikon out, high up in the stands.
I won't be there this afternoon, as I'm hitting the Tigers game tonight with my dad. If anyone is going tomorrow morning, though, come say hello. I've usually got the Nikon out, high up in the stands.
Pretty much agree with what OHLTG writes re the scrimmage won by Team Blue in a shooutout
For Team Blue,agree Ben Johnson was the most impressive despite not scoring or being on the scoresheet,great speed like a man on the run pardon the run,Anthony Marra 19 yr old free agent who played with Georgetown last yr played very well,did stickout thats for sure
Mitch Graham was his usual buzz saw self using his great speed
Sanvido looks stronger out,Markovic for a 16 yr old played well showed some moxie by whacking Seiloff
Rookies Chris Cobham and Drew Marlatt played well both scored goals,Cobham in a shooout
Because of the lack of guilt edge scoring opps tough to get a real read on the goalies for Team Blue combined they allowed 3 goals besides a shootout goal,otherwise they looked solid cant say there bad goals allowed
Was expecting a bit more from Anthony Kotvosos he was ok needs to get noticed,he is capable of blasting people needs to do it
Grahame Brown looked steady as did Nick Ebert,Vail made some nice plays one can see his experience
For Team White- Nikita Yazkov showed nice speed and flashes of real good individual talent,needs to distribute a bit more,would like him to see him a little more engaged,definitely one to watch
Other rookies Ryan Foss and Matt Keaney whom we have written about before both played very well 2 goals by Foss including 1 in a shootout,1 goal by Kenney
Zack Percy looked good too had a goal and an asssit,was really impressed with rookie Dman,Liam Murray,showed great poise with the puck,his heads up play,not afraid to use his big body,has pretty strength,quite frankly would never have known he was 16
Pat Seiloff was usual miserable self,ticking people off,played very well at both ends of the rink
Jordan Dekort was ok thought he could have played a bit better not concerned though as Team Blue tied it on a goal by Sanvido on rebound from Vail with the goalie out
Giftopoulous was flying out there for the Whites,while Janes displayed his vet presence both in hitting and goal scoring chances
Ryan Verbeek did not play because of injury,in fact white team went with 8 forwards as Kyle Shaw was a no-show,17 year old Bryce Mayea a 6"4" 215 was added for team white,he played alright,his size was noticeable to be sure
Free agent forward Alex Morgan had a couple of nice hits,particularly one on Ebert,it was his off ice workouts that impressed,he squatted 580 lbs and did 155 ilbs repitiously 45 times,Spits brass said they had never seen anything like it
The guy is only 6FT tall nicknamed the Moose
Hopefully the feeling out process ends and we will see more scoring opps
Good pace so far but tight
OHLTG
Registered User
One thing I forgot to mention (I was almost falling asleep while typing that when I got home):
During the morning practice, former Spitfires Henrique, Weber, and Wellwood were there, along with former Whaler Liffiton. At one particular pre-play talk, with everyone around, the staff talked to the current team about what it takes to get to the next level. Now, the only reason I bring this up is because of one point Boughner made - how Henrique/Weber had just signed contracts, and the successes of Liffiton and Wellwood. He said something along the lines of...they were in your shoes just a handful of years ago. If you work hard and dedicate yourself, you could be doing the same thing down the road.
To me, that really sent a message to the youngsters. You've got three former Spitfires, and a former Whaler, standing right there with you. They worked their butts off and are now living the dream. It's very possible to do the same thing.
During the morning practice, former Spitfires Henrique, Weber, and Wellwood were there, along with former Whaler Liffiton. At one particular pre-play talk, with everyone around, the staff talked to the current team about what it takes to get to the next level. Now, the only reason I bring this up is because of one point Boughner made - how Henrique/Weber had just signed contracts, and the successes of Liffiton and Wellwood. He said something along the lines of...they were in your shoes just a handful of years ago. If you work hard and dedicate yourself, you could be doing the same thing down the road.
To me, that really sent a message to the youngsters. You've got three former Spitfires, and a former Whaler, standing right there with you. They worked their butts off and are now living the dream. It's very possible to do the same thing.
GBFP
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- Sep 24, 2009
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They are comparable in the sense that both have not been convicted or plead guilty and thus fall under "innocent until proven guilty". That the police personally witnessed Mr. Young's alleged crimes just means they have pretty good witnesses in any trial against him - it doesn't make him any more guilty right now though. Police/prosecution believe they have a very strong case against Johnson as well.
Also Young could end up having mitigating factors - he could have undiagnosed (or diagnosed for all we know) mental issues. He certainly wasn't acting at all rational from the reports we've all read on that night.
I'm okay with Johnson playing while this is all in the courts, just not putting him in ad campaigns, at autograph signings etc. He should have ZERO community profile. And Boughner should take some PR classes not to come off like a complete boob.
Spitfire ownership has to get it's ship in order and it's priorities straight. Johnson wasn't the only Spitfire at Mynt that night, Spits ownership likes to be buddies with players and look the other way and write stuff off as "boys will be boys" and we did all this crazy stuff when we played and it was the time of our lives so how can we prevent these kids from having the same memories.
youngblood10
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- Jan 26, 2010
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The message could be we will support your kid even when they screw up & are in hot water.
Then again maybe the Johnsons have disowned Ben at this time. I don't know. I agree on everything else. Spot on.
That's a terrific post Otto. Some people might not remember but in September of 1997 expectations were very high in Spitfire land. They had a lot of veteran players with a lot of talent. They had guys like Martin, Sarno, Crawford, Hansen, Cooke, Zehr, Lankshear, Mando, Elich, Brennan, young 1st rounder Mike Rupp. As any team there were questions in regards to D and goaltending but they had the pieces in place to contend. Things started off a little rocky but they pounded Sarnia and Belleville and things looked to be on the upswing. Well after that game against Belleville a lot of the players went out to party and missed curfew. Mike Awender promptly suspended all the players involved and the purge was on. They didn't win another game for 2-3 weeks and guys like Crawford, Cooke, Elich, Zehr, Rupp, Brennan were all moved over the next few months. Those trades never really panned out Windsor didn't get a lot of value back in any of those deals except Jason Ward. They could have gotten Paul Mara but the Spits had a poor rep and he didn't want to play in Windsor.
Now with new ownership there have been incidents involving Johnson, Jones and Kassian all in the past 3 years. Sit in a sports ethics class where this stuff is discussed ad nauseum. This type of behavior where entitlement and invincibility exists comes from areas such as parents, management/ownership, and past players who tell players what they can and can't get away with. Some people get hung up on the idea of innocent or guilty but it really isn't that it comes down to players making proper choices and using good judgment. There is no right way to discipline but there are certainly wrong ways and acting like there isn't a problem and doing nothing is a wrong way. In the past few years there have been the previous mentioned incidents in Windsor then you have the Beaulieu incident where he lost his job, the guys in the Soo where eventually they were acquitted but they didn't do anything either at the time, and now Dalton Young who was released. Why hasn't these things happened with Hunter in London, Spott in Kitchener, Walker in Guelph, Butler in Brampton etc...? With the Spits you just can't say these are isolated incidents anymore you have to look at management and the kids they bring in. Those players who went to Mynt that evening in March who were underage should consider themselves lucky and the ones that didn't go should be congratulated for using good judgment. In fact I would even go as far as those underage kids at Mynt that evening should not even be considered for captaincy or assistant captaincy. Guys need to set an example and it didn't happen that evening.
Now with new ownership there have been incidents involving Johnson, Jones and Kassian all in the past 3 years. Sit in a sports ethics class where this stuff is discussed ad nauseum. This type of behavior where entitlement and invincibility exists comes from areas such as parents, management/ownership, and past players who tell players what they can and can't get away with. Some people get hung up on the idea of innocent or guilty but it really isn't that it comes down to players making proper choices and using good judgment. There is no right way to discipline but there are certainly wrong ways and acting like there isn't a problem and doing nothing is a wrong way. In the past few years there have been the previous mentioned incidents in Windsor then you have the Beaulieu incident where he lost his job, the guys in the Soo where eventually they were acquitted but they didn't do anything either at the time, and now Dalton Young who was released. Why hasn't these things happened with Hunter in London, Spott in Kitchener, Walker in Guelph, Butler in Brampton etc...? With the Spits you just can't say these are isolated incidents anymore you have to look at management and the kids they bring in. Those players who went to Mynt that evening in March who were underage should consider themselves lucky and the ones that didn't go should be congratulated for using good judgment. In fact I would even go as far as those underage kids at Mynt that evening should not even be considered for captaincy or assistant captaincy. Guys need to set an example and it didn't happen that evening.
Just getting back fro todays scrimmage pm session with news that there has been a change
management because of a hugh rash of injuries are combining 2 teams to 1 so there will no practice tomorrow at 9 am just a scrimmage at 10.15 and 3 pm
This is the 1st time I have seen this happen under this ownership group,too many injuries to go with 3 teams
It has not been overly physical at camp but clearly many for what ever reason are dinged up
In the afternoon session Grahame Brown did not play because of concussion symptoms suffered this morning and Chris Cobham for the same Blue missed because of back spasms occuring on his last shift in the 1st scrimmage
I will post updates later this evening my impressions of the 2nd scrimmage
management because of a hugh rash of injuries are combining 2 teams to 1 so there will no practice tomorrow at 9 am just a scrimmage at 10.15 and 3 pm
This is the 1st time I have seen this happen under this ownership group,too many injuries to go with 3 teams
It has not been overly physical at camp but clearly many for what ever reason are dinged up
In the afternoon session Grahame Brown did not play because of concussion symptoms suffered this morning and Chris Cobham for the same Blue missed because of back spasms occuring on his last shift in the 1st scrimmage
I will post updates later this evening my impressions of the 2nd scrimmage
punch1943
Registered User
Afternoon Session
The Red-Blue game was a better one than the morning game. Certainly it's really early but none of the goalies played very well in either game....of course left to look after things on their own most of the time...on todays showing I'd rate them as follows
1) Johnston 2) DeKort 3) Batisti 4) Kuchmey
On White.....New guys that did well....Mayea, Murray and Morgan
Yazkov, Killins....OK
On Blue......New guys that did well..Marra, Kotsovos, Andlauer,Luchuk and Graham
On Red.... New guys that did well...Schmitt,
Hudie, Burns, Moore...OK
Marchese didn't look out of place
The Red-Blue game was a better one than the morning game. Certainly it's really early but none of the goalies played very well in either game....of course left to look after things on their own most of the time...on todays showing I'd rate them as follows
1) Johnston 2) DeKort 3) Batisti 4) Kuchmey
On White.....New guys that did well....Mayea, Murray and Morgan
Yazkov, Killins....OK
On Blue......New guys that did well..Marra, Kotsovos, Andlauer,Luchuk and Graham
On Red.... New guys that did well...Schmitt,
Hudie, Burns, Moore...OK
Marchese didn't look out of place
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