OT: Official COVID-19 Thread

[GordieGallant]

The problem is you can’t believe the scientists because like politicians, and the news media they all have an agenda.

Both my wife and myself have worked through this whole pandemic and haven’t gotten sick yet. I have found like anything common sense goes a long way.

 

[TaLoN]

Not asking... Mandating without legislative approval. There is a difference, which sets a precedence which as mentioned is one of my primary concerns.

As permitted by the state constitution created by the legislature.

 

[Minnewildsota]

there are trials that have shown wearing cloth masks increase risk of getting sick and they arent hard to find

Then find them. Again, it’s not my job to search for evidence in your claims

 

[Minnewildsota]

The problem is you can’t believe the scientists because like politicians, and the news media they all have an agenda.

Both my wife and myself have worked through this whole pandemic and haven’t gotten sick yet. I have found like anything common sense goes a long way.

The problem is common sense isn’t all that common.

It’s common sense to not drink and drive. Yet, we’re need a law for it. It’s common sense not to steal from others, etc

 

[TaLoN]

A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

A post-hoc analysis adjusted for compliance and other potential confounders showed that the rate of ILI was significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (RR=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07), compared with the medical masks arm (table 4). There was no significant difference between the medical mask and control arms.

Laboratory tests showed the penetration of particles through the cloth masks to be very high (97%) compared with medical masks (44%) (used in trial) and 3M 9320 N95 (<0.01%), 3M Vflex 9105 N95 (0.1%).

We have provided the first clinical efficacy data of cloth masks, which suggest HCWs should not use cloth masks as protection against respiratory infection. Cloth masks resulted in significantly higher rates of infection than medical masks, and also performed worse than the control arm.

The trend for all outcomes showed the lowest rates of infection in the medical mask group and the highest rates in the cloth mask arm.

The physical properties of a cloth mask, reuse, the frequency and effectiveness of cleaning, and increased moisture retention, may potentially increase the infection risk for HCWs.

We also showed that filtration was extremely poor (almost 0%) for the cloth masks. Observations during SARS suggested double-masking and other practices increased the risk of infection because of moisture, liquid diffusion and pathogen retention.31 These effects may be associated with cloth masks.

Further, we found no significant difference in rates of virus isolation in medical mask users between the three trials, suggesting that the results of this study could be interpreted as partly being explained by a detrimental effect of cloth masks. This is further supported by the fact that the rate of virus isolation in the no-mask control group in the first Chinese RCT was 3.1%, which was not significantly different to the rates of virus isolation in the medical mask arms in any of the three trials including this one.

The data also show that the clinical case definition of ILI is non-specific, and captures a range of pathogens other than influenza. The study suggests medical masks may be protective, but the magnitude of difference raises the possibility that cloth masks cause an increase in infection risk in HCWs.

AGAIN, Cloth masks do nothing but make you at higher risk for illness. If everyone can have N95's, sure i get the mandate.

Did you read the portion about Cloth masks during the COVID-19 pandemic?



I 100% agree that a cloth mask isn't as effective as other's(N95) however you would agree that that a cloth mask is better than no mask. plus it is very important to wash and and cycle cloth masks.

We all don't work in hospitals so we can leave the better mask for people that work with Covid. everyday people can wear cloth masks.

did you read this part of my post?

We also showed that filtration was extremely poor (almost 0%) for the cloth masks. Observations during SARS suggested double-masking and other practices increased the risk of infection because of moisture, liquid diffusion and pathogen retention.31 These effects may be associated with cloth masks.

covid is a SARS virus....

EDIT: Also stated in my post is that cloth masks increase risks of lung infections. Why would you wear something that increases your risk of getting sick during a pandemic?

Yes and they updated the article with regards of Covid and they said you should wear a mask even if it doesn't offer effective protection. If you have to work.

Health workers are asking us if they should wear no mask at all if cloth masks are the only option. Our research does not condone health workers working unprotected.

you dont think that may be written as a legal avenue to not get sued by someone? all of a sudden their test results are going to change? I dont see any science backing up that sentance.

Yes, I read that. You're choice of highlighting is interesting. Why didn't you highlight the whole statement. To paraphrase what that is saying it says "You shouldn't work without adequate PPE. If you choose to, a cloth mask may provide some protection".

Granted there is no evidence of this provided. It's the standard post covid followup to not be a head on spike (CIDRAP was forced to do something similar). They are followups that say "We stand by our research, but sure a cloth mask might help".

As far as this "The cloth masks may have been worse in our study because they were not washed well enough – they may become damp and contaminated. The cloth masks used in our study were products manufactured locally, and fabrics can vary in quality. This and other limitations were also discussed."

How is that any different than the masks we are seeing out in day to day life? I promise you most people are washing and rotating masks daily.



It's not even just that. The entire paragraph makes clear they don't think the cloth masks are adaquate PPE, with a line at the end of the paragraph saying "If you choose to ignore this, sure a cloth masks might provide a physical barrier" (with no evidence of that provided).

The problem with this entire discussion? It's in reference to masks protecting the person wearing the mask.

It makes that entire study irrelevant.

Can face masks protect against the coronavirus?

Cloth masks

A cloth mask is intended to trap droplets that are released when the wearer talks, coughs or sneezes. Asking everyone to wear cloth masks can help reduce the spread of the virus by people who have COVID-19 but don't realize it.

Cloth face coverings are most likely to reduce the spread of the COVID-19 virus when they are widely used by people in public settings. And countries that required face masks, testing, isolation and social distancing early in the pandemic have successfully slowed the spread of the virus.

While surgical and N95 masks may be in short supply and should be reserved for health care providers, cloth face coverings and masks are easy to find or make, and can be washed and reused.

Masks can be made from common materials, such as sheets made of tightly woven cotton. Instructions are easy to find online. Cloth masks should include multiple layers of fabric. The CDC website even includes directions for no-sew masks made from bandannas and T-shirts.

How to wear a cloth face mask
The CDC recommends that you wear a cloth face mask when you're around people who don't live with you and in public settings when social distancing is difficult.
Here are a few pointers for putting on and taking off a cloth mask:

• Wash or sanitize your hands before and after putting on and taking off your mask.
• Place your mask over your mouth and nose.
• Tie it behind your head or use ear loops and make sure it's snug.
• Don't touch your mask while wearing it.
• If you accidentally touch your mask, wash or sanitize your hands.
• If your mask becomes wet or dirty, switch to a clean one. Put the used mask in a sealable bag until you can wash it.
• Remove the mask by untying it or lifting off the ear loops without touching the front of the mask or your face.
• Wash your hands immediately after removing your mask.
• Regularly wash your mask with soap and water by hand or in the washing machine. It's fine to launder it with other clothes.

And, here are a few face mask precautions:

• Don't put masks on anyone who has trouble breathing, or is unconscious or otherwise unable to remove the mask without help.
• Don't put masks on children under 2 years of age.
• Don't use face masks as a substitute for social distancing.

The CDC doesn't recommend using face shields instead of masks because it's unclear how much protection they provide. However, wearing a face mask may not be possible in every situation. If you must use a face shield instead of a mask, choose one that wraps around the sides of your face and extends below your chin.
Tips for adjusting to a face mask

It can be challenging to get used to wearing a face mask. Here are some tips for making the transition:

• Start slow. Wear your mask at home for a short time, such as while watching television. Then wear it during a short walk. Slowly increase the time until you feel more comfortable.
• Find your fit. If your mask isn't comfortable or is too difficult to breathe through, consider other options. Masks come in a variety of styles and sizes.

If these tips don't help or you have concerns about wearing a mask, talk with your doctor about how to protect yourself and others during the pandemic.

Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US

There was a significant decline in daily COVID-19 growth rate after the mandating of face covers in public, with the effect increasing over time after the orders were signed. Specifically, the daily case rate declined by 0.9, 1.1, 1.4, 1.7, and 2.0 percentage points within 1–5, 6–10, 11–15, 16–20, and 21 or more days after signing, respectively. All of these declines were statistically significant (p<0.05 or less). In contrast, the pre-event trends in COVID-19 case growth rates were small and statistically insignificant.

We also projected the number of averted COVID-19 cases with the mandates for face mask use in public by comparing actual cumulative daily cases with daily cases predicted by the model if none of the states had enacted the public face cover mandate at the time they did (see details in appendix B).19 The main model estimates suggested that because of these mandates, 230,000–450,000 cases may have been averted by May 22. Estimates of averted cases should be viewed cautiously and only as general approximations.

The study provides evidence that US states mandating the use of face masks in public had a greater decline in daily COVID-19 growth rates after issuing these mandates compared with states that did not issue mandates. These effects were observed conditional on other existing social distancing measures and were independent of the CDC recommendation to wear face covers issued April 3, 2020. As international and state governments begin to relax social distancing restrictions, and considering the high likelihood of a second COVID-19 wave in the fall and winter of 2020,30 requiring the use of face masks in public could help in reducing COVID-19 spread.

 

[GuerinUp]

Then find them. Again, it’s not my job to search for evidence in your claims

i did, and posted it. had you read it.

 

[GuerinUp]

[QUOTE="TaLoN, post: 174660756, member: 104082"]The problem with this entire discussion? It's in reference to masks protecting the person wearing the mask.

It makes that entire study irrelevant.

Can face masks protect against the coronavirus?[/QUOTE]

That makes absolutely zero sense. Masks are not one way travel, oxygen and germs go in and out at equal amounts. thats like saying a hole in your oil pan wont let oil out, but you can put it in through it

Those studies you posted do not take into effect other mandates such as travel restrictions, work closures, or any other variable that was also implemented with the mask mandate. Its an empty number and terrible science to assume an end result without accounting for all variables. We mAdE a maSk ManDAte AS WeLL As CLoSeD EveRyThiNG doWN aNd ScAREd thE PubLIC IntO StaYing HOme MaSKs aRe tHe rEaSoN NuMbERS aRe DowN

 

[HotDish]

The problem with this entire discussion? It's in reference to masks protecting the person wearing the mask.

It makes that entire study irrelevant.

Can face masks protect against the coronavirus?






https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

 

[GuerinUp]

View attachment 378395

This is the science eh? gonna compare urine to a virus....

 

[TaLoN]

Face masks slow spread of COVID-19; types of masks, length of use matter: Pandemic could be stopped if at least 70 percent of the public wore face masks consistently
No Debate: New Study Shows How Masks Slow Spread of COVID-19 | Hartford HealthCare
Repeatedly studies done on this prove they are slowing the spread.

Everyone still needs to follow the other restrictions though too, and the problem is, many are not. It would be even worse though right now if Leone were ignoring the other restrictions while also never wearing masks.

Yes, you can still get infected while wearing a mask. That's why you still need to social distance and limit your exposure time around others.

Masks work by reducing the distance your expelled particles travel. The longer you're there though, the more particles you expel and the further they will travel anyway. Eventually you could expel enough volume of particles to make your mark wearing irrelevant, which is why you need to follow social distancing and exposure time rules as well.

If you don't wear a mask and are spreading the virus, you increase the viral load you expose others to even if social distancing and limiting exposure time, thus increasing risk of infection for others.

Viral load exposed to is a key factor in getting infected or not. Reduce the viral load, reduce the chances of infection.

 

[HotDish]

This is the science eh? gonna compare urine to a virus....

its an analogy for people that don't understand science or like to argue in bad faith. I did remark this in this thread a few pages ago. Wearing mask is about protecting others not yourself. That was the whole story about the Covid positive hairdressers who worked with cloth masks and no one that they know of out of the 150+ people they did haircuts on got Covid.

 

[GuerinUp]

its an analogy for people that don't understand science or like to argue in bad faith. I did remark this in this thread a few pages ago. Wearing mask is about protecting others not yourself. That was the whole story about the Covid positive hairdressers who worked with cloth masks and no one that they know of out of the 150+ people they did haircuts on got Covid.

i read the article, and we had some compelling arguments on that as well. But urine as an analogy? honestly? Id rather get pissed on without pants on so it dries quicker than getting soaked in my pants and sitting in it all day. also, pants dont protect you at all from piss unless they are waterproof. much like a cloth mask vs any other mask. you sit and stew in germs which was my entire point, increasing your risk of being infected.

 

[GuerinUp]

you wanna keep pointing fingers, these types of events are a reason the numbers are soaring, way more than mask wearing:

Coronavirus cases in NYC linked to Tulum festival that became superspreader event: report

 

[HotDish]

you wanna keep pointing fingers, these types of events are a reason the numbers are soaring, way more than mask wearing:

Coronavirus cases in NYC linked to Tulum festival that became superspreader event: report

I don't think anyone is arguing that masks is the fix everything tool. I think most would agree on: Don't go out unless you really need to. If you go out wear a mask, social distance, and wash your hands often.

Yes it is dumb to hosts events during this pandemic like it was dumb for SD to have Sturgis. It was dumb to have a post Stanley cup celebration in Tampa Bay. It was dumb to have political rallies in a non-mask, non social distance convention center in OK city.

No pro masker should argue that those events should go on even if you have a mask. Wearing a mask is just about adding another line of protection even it isn't the strongest. Just unfortunately we have groups of people that can't think of others and a piece of fabric is the next big threat of oppression apparently.

 

[GuerinUp]

I don't think anyone is arguing that masks is the fix everything tool. I think most would agree on: Don't go out unless you really need to. If you go out wear a mask, social distance, and wash your hands often.

Yes it is dumb to hosts events during this pandemic like it was dumb for SD to have Sturgis. It was dumb to have a post Stanley cup celebration in Tampa Bay. It was dumb to have political rallies in a non-mask, non social distance convention center in OK city.

No pro masker should argue that those events should go on even if you have a mask. Wearing a mask is just about adding another line of protection even it isn't the strongest. Just unfortunately we have groups of people that can't think of others and a piece of fabric is the next big threat of oppression apparently.

opression: the state of being subject to unjust treatment or control

tyranny: an act or the pattern of harsh, cruel, and unfair control over other people.

What would you call a mandate or government shutdowns of businesses without critical data and analysis of particular parts of said mandates not being released to general public? Its a very similar debate to gun control. "automatic guns kill people" yet we need our body guards. no, mentally unstable and evil people kill people. "cloth masks will protect you" yet politicians can be seen not wearing masks or following distancing guidlines quite often in public.

You want every american to just jump on a train of acceptance, when questioning authority is the whole premise of our country's foundation and is constitutional.

 

[HotDish]

opression: the state of being subject to unjust treatment or control

tyranny: an act or the pattern of harsh, cruel, and unfair control over other people.

What would you call a mandate or government shutdowns of businesses without critical data and analysis of particular parts of said mandates not being released to general public? Its a very similar debate to gun control. "automatic guns kill people" yet we need our body guards. no, mentally unstable and evil people kill people. "cloth masks will protect you" yet politicians can be seen not wearing masks or following distancing guidlines quite often in public.

You want every american to just jump on a train of acceptance, when questioning authority is the whole premise of our country's foundation and is constitutional.

how is wearing a piece of fabric unjust and control? We are literally asking people to do the bare minimum. Thank God we didn't have to live through government mandated rationing during WW2 because Americans would've folded like a lawn chair and surrendered in the opening months since the Government restricted our access to sugar.

Where is this questioning of authority when it comes to seat belts? how about smoking indoors? I don't see people making a fuss.

 

[TaLoN]

During a pandemic, mask wearing is a basic hygiene issue, just like wearing shoes when you go to the store is whether it's a pandemic or not.

No shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service.

No, it's not the end all be all solution, but it's a measure taken, that when followed along with the other measures, limits the spread, keeps the health care system from getting overwhelmed, and will go away when the pandemic is over.

Very likely by sometime in the summer if people get vaccinated.

 

[fentonsbrainchild]

Can you supply definitive proof that filthy nasty masks protect people anymore than not having them on?

Honestly all I’m taking away from this thread is: do you not wash your mask?

Hygiene is important

 

[Northerner]

Honestly all I’m taking away from this thread is: do you not wash your mask?

Hygiene is important

1. Masks get dirty the second you breath on them

2. Masks get dirty the second you put your hands on them

3. Some masks can't be washed

4. You can't control every American and how often they do or don't wash their mask



And I could go on. The idea that a mask is going to some how protect you from a virus is silly. I touch a door handle a hundred times a night, then adjust my mask with the hands I just touched a dirty door handle many times in a given night.


I have my hands around my face way more because of the mask adjusting and so on than I would If I didn't have the mask on.



This whole debate is like so many others: both sides are dug in. There is no middle ground. I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. Welcome to the new America.

 

[Dee Oh Cee]

The mask helps protect others from you. It doesn't protect yourself from others.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Both my wife and myself have worked through this whole pandemic and haven’t gotten sick yet. I have found like anything common sense goes a long way.

Do you know how ridiculous this argument sounds? I mean, you could make the argument for anything with this type of thinking:

I drank through my pregnancy and my child turned out okay.

I didn't wear a seatbelt and survived a car accident, because if I had worn it, I would have been crushed. Instead I was thrown from the car and survived!

I don't wear a motorcycle helmet, because I am a safe driver!

I don't have time to walk over to the crosswalk, so I walk across the street anywhere and haven't been hit yet!

The mask helps protect others from you. It doesn't protect yourself from others.

They don't get it; I mean it's all about them and their comfort and safety, not anyone else's.

I've known so far two people who have lost people to Covid (one due to the after effects of Covid) and another is struggling hard in recovery.

 

[GuerinUp]

Do you know how ridiculous this argument sounds? I mean, you could make the argument for anything with this type of thinking:

I drank through my pregnancy and my child turned out okay.

I didn't wear a seatbelt and survived a car accident, because if I had worn it, I would have been crushed. Instead I was thrown from the car and survived!

I don't wear a motorcycle helmet, because I am a safe driver!

I don't have time to walk over to the crosswalk, so I walk across the street anywhere and haven't been hit yet!



They don't get it; I mean it's all about them and their comfort and safety, not anyone else's.

I've known so far two people who have lost people to Covid (one due to the after effects of Covid) and another is struggling hard in recovery.

Oh i get it, but i also dont live in a fantasy world where a piece of cloth without a carbon filter is going to protect you from anything. Example being an article i read from the health department yesterday warning scarves are not a substitute for cloth masks. Alot of scarves are made of thicker and tighter woven fabric. I would argue a scarf if wrapped correctly and made of the right fabric is probably way more effective than 90% of the cloth masks people are wearing. The logic here is asinine.

 

[HotDish]

Literally the mask debate is can you think of others or are you just selfish? It is about protecting others.

It you can't think of others it would be the best for society that you stay home and look at yourself in the mirror since that is all that matters to you.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Oh i get it, but i also dont live in a fantasy world where a piece of cloth without a carbon filter is going to protect you from anything. Example being an article i read from the health department yesterday warning scarves are not a substitute for cloth masks. Alot of scarves are made of thicker and tighter woven fabric. I would argue a scarf if wrapped correctly and made of the right fabric is probably way more effective than 90% of the cloth masks people are wearing. The logic here is asinine.

Problem is most scarves and not wrapped correctly nor made of the right fabric, which is why they discourage them from being used.

 

[Northerner]

D



They don't get it; I mean it's all about them and their comfort and safety, not anyone else's.

I've known so far two people who have lost people to Covid (one due to the after effects of Covid) and another is struggling hard in recovery.

I get it plenty well. And I do wear a mask when I am out. A flimsy little piece of clothe that I believe does little good to anyone, but still.


I don't have the luxury of staying home. I am the only income in my house.


The most frustrating part of all of this is people who DO have the luxury of working from home just flippantly telling people like me off with statements like "just stay home". It's unbelievably insensitive, yet they don't have the awareness of how insensitive it is - I will die if I don't have an income and pay my mortgage.


More frustrating still, is the so-called news running story after story of horrific examples (outliers, all) of people who die from this disease. They are all about promoting horrific fear in all of us. It's criminal the way they run this stories to put extreme fear in all of us.

The news had me so afraid I actually want to get the virus, to get it over with, the way they have me so affraid I am going to die because of it.