Official Bryan Murray Discussion Thread

[DylanSensFan]

Toronto's scouting staff handed Burke a grand total of 3 NHLers (Schenn, Hayes, Kadri) during the time he was the GM of the Leafs.

In the same time frame (2008-2011 drafts) the Sens scouting staff gave Murray 15 NHLers (Karl, Wier, Smith, Boro, Cowen, Silf, Lehner, Wideman, Hoff, Rundblad, Stone, Zib, Puempel, Prince, JGP).

Imagine what Burke could have done if he was given x3 as many young players to plug into the roster/trade in packages for better players. Probably a hell of a lot more than Murray did.

Tell me then why Shanahan came in and pretty much cleaned house after Burke was done? And the two main players in Anaheim's last playoff run? Getzlaf and Perry who were drafted by Murray and still a staple in the NHL. Kadri is the only player that Burke really has to show for his time in Toronto and was a player he knew Murray wanted. Tell me how many players we've drafted since Murray that have made the NHL? Because I see an entire team full of draftees and if we want to look at the Lightning, Chicago or LA, not one team which Burke touched, we see a whole lot of draft picks, with a few veterans sprinkled in for good measure. This team is full of injuries and a bit off track this season... but last season was the most exciting time I've had as a fan, even more exciting than that fragile team from 2007. As a fan I feel it would be idiotic to bring in a GM like Burke who has one Stanley Cup and the key offensive players in that Cup run were Murray draft picks.

 

[HavlatMach9]

Genuinely happy that we had Murray as GM for so long. Success is hard to come by in today's NHL, and I'd say we've been below average during his time here. At the moment, he's laid a good foundation for his successor.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Maybe Burke shouldn't have built such a crappy scouting staff. He's the one who made dumb comments like "Luke Schenn is our future captain" and "Morgan Reilly would have been our pick of we were picking first overall".

I'm not aware if Burke brought in a new scouting staff or not, but if he did then he absolutely deserves criticism for that. Hiring staff is unquestionably an important part of the job, and it's one area that Murray has done very well. However, if we are considering replacing Murray with a new GM, the prospective candidate's ability to stock the scouting staff full of capable people is irrelevant, as our scouting staff does not need to be replaced upon Murray's departure. The only qualities that we should be looking for in our next GM is his ability to get good value in trades, and ability to attract quality UFAs to Ottawa. The scouting and developing will be left to the people who work in those areas of the organization.

Of course our next GM should have a similar mindset on what kind of hockey this team should play as well. As far as I know there isn't a whole lot of difference between the way Murray and Burke like hockey to be played. They both value big tough two-way hockey players.

Anyways if he were interested in the position Burke would be my first choice to replace Murray. Wanted Shero this past off-season but he was snatched up by the Devils. Hard to find guys with GM experience, remarkable trade records and history of UFA signings. Might have to wait until someone is fired to find a suitable candidate.

Tell me then why Shanahan came in and pretty much cleaned house after Burke was done? And the two main players in Anaheim's last playoff run? Getzlaf and Perry who were drafted by Murray and still a staple in the NHL. Kadri is the only player that Burke really has to show for his time in Toronto and was a player he knew Murray wanted. Tell me how many players we've drafted since Murray that have made the NHL? Because I see an entire team full of draftees and if we want to look at the Lightning, Chicago or LA, not one team which Burke touched, we see a whole lot of draft picks, with a few veterans sprinkled in for good measure. This team is full of injuries and a bit off track this season... but last season was the most exciting time I've had as a fan, even more exciting than that fragile team from 2007. As a fan I feel it would be idiotic to bring in a GM like Burke who has one Stanley Cup and the key offensive players in that Cup run were Murray draft picks.

Again I think you're giving far too much credit to the general manager for their team's draft success. It's the scouting staff that determines what players are going to be selected by their organization, not the GM. The GM is also not one of the guys training these prospects for years, that's the development/coaching staff.

Murray did a pretty good job in Anaheim, but Burke played a big part in it as well. Signed two future Hall of Famers, traded for another, and added Beauchemin, as well as some key depth guys. He didn't build the team from scratch, but he did a damn good job turning that Ducks team into a cup contender. Considering this team is a top line forward and top 4 D away from contending, wonder if Burke could be a guy who could push us over the top by packaging some of the excess young talent in the organization for impact players. Worth discussing at the very least.

 

[BonkTastic]

Brian Burke as our GM might steer me down the path towards full-blown alcoholism.


I would be more accepting of literally almost any one else. Heck, even MAK can have a chance at the reigns over Burke.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

If Burke was ever our GM, we'd have to have Torts as coach. Holy hell, what a freaking show that would be! A complete disaster, but damned entertaining.


I think a lot of folks forget, in any given year, there are a good 25+ teams in the NHL trying to get better and win a Cup. It's not like everyone backs off and goes, hey, Ottawa needs a hand...here, have a prime Stamkos for your scraps or we'll take Greening off your payroll, and hey, we'll give you this nice draft pick and premier prospect for the privilege! Go Ottawa! It's a cutthroat business, and no one is going to give away a penny more than they have to out of the goodness of their hearts.

All in all, Murray has done a good job.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Murray built such a crappy pro scouting staff. That Ryan and Spezza trade yuck

Do we actually have a pro scouting staff? I am of the opinion that nobody actually watched Conacher or Chiasson prior to us acquiring them.

 

[topshelf15]

This threadeverybody is an expert

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Do we actually have a pro scouting staff? I am of the opinion that nobody actually watched Conacher or Chiasson prior to us acquiring them.

Careful now, Conacher was brought here by Timmy Murray.

People need to get over the Spezza trade.

Once a player let's it be known he wants a move and can control the destination to a large degree, the return drops through the floor.

Chaisson is young and will be a serviceable NHL players, Paul is the guy Murray was after and got him.

 

[topshelf15]

Careful now, Conacher was brought here by Timmy Murray.

People need to get over the Spezza trade.

Once a player let's it be known he wants a move and can control the destination to a large degree, the return drops through the floor.

Chaisson is young and will be a serviceable NHL players, Paul is the guy Murray was after and got him.

The Spezza trade makes me laugh ,people here seem to think there was a better deal out there for, a fragile, expensive, one way player.Iam glad we moved him ,let dallas worry about when this guy breaks and they still have to pay him

 

[Indrew]

Spezza hasn't missed a game for Dallas yet...

The only season where he missed significant time was the lock-out shortened year.

I don't even care about the trade. He requested out, and the Sens got what they could for him.

The hate for him still bugs me though.

 

[Xamar*]

He's looking damn good too. Still don't regret the trade just wish we didn't get such a bad package in return. Paul better become a 1st liner.

 

[topshelf15]

Spezza hasn't missed a game for Dallas yet...

The only season where he missed significant time was the lock-out shortened year.

We had Spezza at his best ,and moved him at the right time .People crying about this ,need to remember he wasnt going to resign here anyhow ,and we had no interest in paying 7.5 mil a season considering his back isssue,s amd his declining skillset

 

[topshelf15]

Spezza hasn't missed a game for Dallas yet...

The only season where he missed significant time was the lock-out shortened year.

I don't even care about the trade. He requested out, and the Sens got what they could for him.

The hate for him still bugs me though.

Never said i hated him ,but he wasnt good here anymore .Both him and the team needed to move on

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Never said i hated him ,but he wasnt good here anymore .Both him and the team needed to move on

Same boat. How can you hate Spezza? He was always a professional but as you said, time to move on. Kinda like when Jacques Martin left.

 

[topshelf15]

Same boat. How can you hate Spezza? He was always a professional but as you said, time to move on. Kinda like when Jacques Martin left.

Yep ,and every team in the league knew this .We were never gonna get full value for him

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Same boat. How can you hate Spezza? He was always a professional but as you said, time to move on. Kinda like when Jacques Martin left.

I think there was still a spot on this roster for Spezza. But he didn't want to be here for a myriad of reasons including wanting to win now, getting out of the fishbowl of Ottawa and avoiding the fans who targeted him for all their life's woes.

We'd be a better team with Spezza than without. I still think Turris would have reached his potential with Jason here. And we wouldn't have to play Zbad as a #2 center either.

 

[Sensinitis]

Spezza doesn't care about winning now lol.

Also he didn't fit the style of play we were trying to implement, and as the Captain of the team that's big.

 

[Xamar*]

Spezza doesn't care about winning now lol.

Also he didn't fit the style of play we were trying to implement, and as the Captain of the team that's big.

What style ? Seems like no one on this team plays our style or else we wouldn't have lost 4-1 to the freakin Coyotes.


Unless you mean the Chiasson style. Then I understand what you mean.

 

[bert]

Toronto's scouting staff handed Burke a grand total of 3 NHLers (Schenn, Hayes, Kadri) during the time he was the GM of the Leafs.

In the same time frame (2008-2011 drafts) the Sens scouting staff gave Murray 15 NHLers (Karl, Wier, Smith, Boro, Cowen, Silf, Lehner, Wideman, Hoff, Rundblad, Stone, Zib, Puempel, Prince, JGP).

Imagine what Burke could have done if he was given x3 as many young players to plug into the roster/trade in packages for better players. Probably a hell of a lot more than Murray did.

Who do you think hires the scouting staff? They 'gave' murray these players eh kinda like Murray 'gave' them there jobs you know to scout.... Kinda like Murray picks scouts based on the types of players they produce... What do you actually think is going on? This is an NHL organization these scouts are trained by guess who.... Do you not think they dont report to him? Or report to Pierre who reports to Murray... Do you not think like any other organization or company there are systems in place.

Burke made one of the worst trades in NHL history and you are praising his trading ability. Its beyond the point of bias now your arguments are really lacking substance.

 

[bert]

What style ? Seems like no one on this team plays our style or else we wouldn't have lost 4-1 to the freakin Coyotes.


Unless you mean the Chiasson style. Then I understand what you mean.

In ice hockey teams develop what we call 'systems' the coachs implement a game plan based on the strengths and weakness's of the teams personnel. These systems range everywhere from neutral zone and offensize zone forchecks, to defensive positioning in all 3 zones. Systems include specific neutral zone re groups, power play break outs, defensive posture in the zone on the PK and many many more.

In Ottawa's system the game play and style of Jason Spezza did not gel well with the rest of the team, especially when his role was so important. Do you follow?

 

[Xamar*]

In ice hockey teams develop what we call 'systems' the coachs implement a game plan based on the strengths and weakness's of the teams personnel. These systems range everywhere from neutral zone and offensize zone forchecks, to defensive positioning in all 3 zones. Systems include specific neutral zone re groups, power play break outs, defensive posture in the zone on the PK and many many more.

In Ottawa's system the game play and style of Jason Spezza did not gel well with the rest of the team, especially when his role was so important. Do you follow?

Love how all the blame goes to Spezza. Maclean's system failed the entire team during the 2013/2014 season. Explain why Spezza had one of his best years in 2011/2012 under Maclean? did he not "gel well with the rest of the team" then to?. Fast forward to the beginning of last season. No Spezza yet the Sens still played bad defensively, played with no system and got Maclean canned. Was that Spezza's fault too? Do you follow ?

 

[bert]

Love how all the blame goes to Spezza. Maclean's system failed the entire team during the 2013/2014 season. Explain why Spezza had one of his best years in 2011/2012 under Maclean? did he not "gel well with the rest of the team" then to?. Fast forward to the beginning of last season. No Spezza yet the Sens still played bad defensively, played with no system and got Maclean canned. Was that Spezza's fault too? Do you follow ?

You did not understand what a system was I was simply trying to explain it to you.

I am having a hard time following what your argument is. I thought you didnt like Murray? Is it Murrays fault Spezza was going into a UFA season where he expressed he did not want to re sign? Was it Murray's fault Spezza makes lazy plays and lacks work ethic? Perhaps it was Murray's fault that they named Spezza captain. I dont know, but whoever made that decision it was a poor one. Jason Spezza is not an NHL captain especially on a young team lacking leadership. While he is a fantastic NHL talent he makes irresponsible plays with the puck and from time to time lacks effort.

In the right role Spezza can really thrive we saw it here right in front of us he was an offensive force. However as time went on Ottawa was not in a position to put him in a position to succeed. They wanted to get something for him while they could.

 

[Xamar*]

You did not understand what a system was I was simply trying to explain it to you.

I am having a hard time following what your argument is. I thought you didnt like Murray? Is it Murrays fault Spezza was going into a UFA season where he expressed he did not want to re sign? Was it Murray's fault Spezza makes lazy plays and lacks work ethic? Perhaps it was Murray's fault that they named Spezza captain. I dont know, but whoever made that decision it was a poor one. Jason Spezza is not an NHL captain especially on a young team lacking leadership. While he is a fantastic NHL talent he makes irresponsible plays with the puck and from time to time lacks effort.

In the right role Spezza can really thrive Ottawa was not in a position to put him in one. They wanted to get something for him while they could.

I already said a few quotes above that I don't regret Spezza being traded. What annoys me is all this talk about Spezza not following the system when it appears that no one on the Senators follows any sort of system. Every Senator is as guilty as Spezza was yet he is unfairly criticized for trying to do it all himself offensively. You should try holding everyone to the same standard since they're all NHL players making an NHL salary. Spezza didn't follow the system sure but Oct 2014 - Feb 2015 proves that NO SENATOR followed the system as well. If they did we wouldn't have been so bad then and we wouldn't be so bad now.

 

[Micklebot]

I already said a few quotes above that I don't regret Spezza being traded. What annoys me is all this talk about Spezza not following the system when it appears that no one on the Senators follows any sort of system. Every Senator is as guilty as Spezza was yet he is unfairly criticized for trying to do it all himself offensively. You should try holding everyone to the same standard since they're all NHL players making an NHL salary. Spezza didn't follow the system sure but Oct 2014 - Feb 2015 proves that NO SENATOR followed the system as well. If they did we wouldn't have been so bad then and we wouldn't be so bad now.

Oct 2014 to Feb 2015 proves that Methot is a huge part of our D core, and that an already weak group can't survive when it loses one of the main pieces.

Honestly; we had a d group of

Broke back Phillips/Boro - Karlsson
Cowen (playing through an abductor tear) - Ceci
Boro/Wiercioch - Gryba

How is Maclean or Cameron supposed to win games with that D?

I agree with you that Spezza gets too much criticism for the 13-14 season. He was still battling a back issue, adjusting to being captain, and the D group wasn't good (Phillips was bad, Karlsson was still recovering, Cowen was playing through that torn abductor for half that season, Ceci was inexperienced, ect) but he also wasn't doing himself any favours. He had committed to a better defensive game in the past (2009-13 he was much better defensively) but in 13-14 he seemed to go back to opting to cheat offensively, perhaps because he felt responsible to lead the way offensively as the new captain. He likely new the D was porous, and figured he had to out score the oposition, but his attempts compounded the lack of quality D.

edit: Anticipating the ref to 2012-13 when we lost Karlsson; We actually had a deeper group of D back then. Phillips was better than he was since, Gonchar was still a good top 4 Dman, Methot was healthy. Benoit was a decent bottom pair option, Wiercioch was playing the best hockey he has, and in an appropriately sheltered role (offensive mins with a vet partner), and add to all that we got unsustainably good goaltending.

 

[Sensinitis]

What style ? Seems like no one on this team plays our style or else we wouldn't have lost 4-1 to the freakin Coyotes.


Unless you mean the Chiasson style. Then I understand what you mean.

Basing your point on one game makes you lack credibility, lol.