Official Bryan Murray Discussion Thread

bert

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Nov 11, 2002
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I find them equally disappointing.

Then you are not paying attention.

Sorry Ice, I may not be following...there was conversation in the Randy Lee thread re: Murray and a mod suggested it get moved to this thread. So I obliged by bumping the thread. I do think that the current state of the franchise is cause to reflect on the job BM did, and question how much of his ineffectiveness (which is open to debate) was the result of organizational dysfunction.
You think the current state of the franchise is on Bryan Murray?.... Holy shit thats insane. No reason to even bother to bring up how god damn obvious its Eugene Melnyk. The internet sure is a special place.
 

DaveMatthew

Bring in Peter
Apr 13, 2005
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Brian Murray was a fantastic coach but a mediocre GM. He made some good moves, and some bad moves, but I found he was always stuck in the "in-between". He never went all-in, but never tore it down and rebuilt either.

With that said, he was highly respected by players and even in a small market, was able to attract and retain marquee players.

That alone puts him in a different stratosphere than Dorion.

I don't think the Dorion/Melnyk combination will ever sign a top player if they have any other options.

No one in their right mind would choose to be part of an organization that they're in charge of.
 
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Senscore

Let's keep it cold
Nov 19, 2012
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Then you are not paying attention.

I wrote that last February. Who's not paying attention?

In the time since then, my opinion has changed a bit. I still find Bryan Murray's overall track record with the team disappointing, especially considering where he started. Believe it or not there was a period in which we did have financially competitive resources and weren't in full blown austerity mode. I suppose I do have a better appreciation for his diplomacy, although it's hard to be certain if Melnyk was always this deranged or it was more of a slow descent.

But yeah my opinion of Dorion definitely found exciting new places to fall to.
 
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DaveMatthew

Bring in Peter
Apr 13, 2005
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I wrote that last February. Who's not paying attention?

In the time since then, my opinion has changed a bit. I still find Bryan Murray's overall track record with the team disappointing, especially considering where he started. Believe it or not there was a period in which we did have financially competitive resources and weren't in full blown austerity mode. I suppose I do have a better appreciation for his diplomacy, although it's hard to be certain if Melnyk was always this deranged or it was more of a slow descent.

But yeah my opinion of Dorion definitely found exciting new places to fall to.

I agree that Murray was a mediocre GM (although I do think he was a fantastic coach), but after resigning in 2016, he left the team with:

• A future HOF #1 defenseman, Erik Karlsson, who was 25 and had already won two Norris trophies
• Two premier point-producing wingers, Stone and Hoffman, both of whom were under 25
• A 6'2, 215 lb center who had just put up 50 points at 22 years old (Zibanejad)
• Good, young, core players like Turris and Pageau

That, as a starting point for any new GM, was great.

In two years, Dorion turned that into this.
 

Blotto71

I was wrong...the worst is NOT behind us.
May 12, 2013
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Then you are not paying attention.


You think the current state of the franchise is on Bryan Murray?.... Holy **** thats insane. No reason to even bother to bring up how god damn obvious its Eugene Melnyk. The internet sure is a special place.

Yeah, how you got that I think the current state of the franchise is on Bryan Murray from my post is beyond me.
 

Senscore

Let's keep it cold
Nov 19, 2012
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I agree that Murray was a mediocre GM (although I do think he was a fantastic coach), but after resigning in 2016, he left the team with:

• A future HOF #1 defenseman, Erik Karlsson, who was 25 and had already won two Norris trophies
• Two premier point-producing wingers, Stone and Hoffman, both of whom were under 25
• A 6'2, 215 lb center who had just put up 50 points at 22 years old (Zibanejad)
• Good, young, core players like Turris and Pageau

That, as a starting point for any new GM, was great.

In two years, Dorion turned that into this.

In fairness, drafting is a real positive for both Murray and Dorion, who both have made significant contributions to the team through that avenue. I have zero issues with either man in that context.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
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There is 2 things to understand when comparing Murray and Dorion

- Salary cap has evolved. Murray also looked very restricted by budget issues but it didn't look as major back then when the cap was (much) lower.

- Melnyk is a PR disaster, Murray kept him in check. Now Melnyk is more central to the franchise.

I wrote that last February. Who's not paying attention?

In the time since then, my opinion has changed a bit. I still find Bryan Murray's overall track record with the team disappointing, especially considering where he started. Believe it or not there was a period in which we did have financially competitive resources and weren't in full blown austerity mode. I suppose I do have a better appreciation for his diplomacy, although it's hard to be certain if Melnyk was always this deranged or it was more of a slow descent.

But yeah my opinion of Dorion definitely found exciting new places to fall to.

The team peaked 2002-2007 but what was he really left with?

Alfredsson? Alfie was kept until he was 41 y/o, played 1 year elsewhere then retired

Heatley? He was kept 2 more years but then asked for a trade publicly, which put the team in a tough spot but the Sens dodged a huge bullet there because Heatley was primed for a steep decline 2 years, making current Ryan's contract like a bargain. They got younger cheaper Michalek who was a good Senator for years.

Spezza? He was kept 7 more years and was traded older 2-3 years before his decline too

Fisher? Got a 1st and a 3rd for him

Vermette? Got Leclaire and a 2nd, which turned in Lehner, which turned in Colin White.

Meszaros? Traded him for Kuba, Picard and a 1st. Meszaros is a bit similar to Ceci actually, fast start to his NHL career, then became "average". Let's see if Dorion can get that kind of package for Ceci

Phillips? Neil? Kept until retirement

Volchenkov? Kept him 3 more years, good decision to not extend him, he ended up bought up halfway through his next contract

Redden? kept him 1 year but declined faster than Heatley. Good decision to let him go.

Schaefer? Preissing? They were out of the league very fast

Emery? Gerber? no comment needed.

So what were those magical assets that Murray started with? Thing is the Sens had a terrible prospect pool. I Suggest you compare the prospect pool he had in 2007 vs the one Dorion had in 2016...

Drafting (and developping) is the most important thing for a NHL franchise and even more for a smaller market like Ottawa who is really not a desired destination for UFAs and who is operating on a smaller budget so they need good young players on ELC or RFA contracts.

I'll copy/paste a post that I have made in the past regarding this subject :

"There's absolutely nobody I miss more right now than Bryan Murray in my non-personal life. His teams were competitive with awful coaching and awful goaltending (until Anders0n). He had to deal with a lot of drama out of his control (Emery off-ice issues, Heatley disgruntled primadonna who put the team in a very bad spot to trade him (Murray still managed to get a top asset like Michalek), Spezza that can't deal with Canadian market pressure, Corvo asking to be traded out of a Canadian market, Redden sudden fall off a cliff after the death of his mother, etc). He also had to deal with budget restraints, even though the cap evolved, the Sens were not able to follow the dance (sounds familiar?). There's a reason he had a great reputation and was so much respected in the NHL community.

It's a results oriented business so let's take a look at it. After a very successful stint as a coach for the Senators (100-46-18 record for 2005-06 & 2006-07, winning 4 rounds in just 2 years, reaching the SCF), he was the Sens GM from 2007-08 to 2015-16. Here are some team stats for that period of time :

- Team record : 339-278-87
- 19th (out of 32 teams) in P% with 0.543
- Made the playoffs 5 times out of 9 years, winning 1 round (12-21 record)
- 2.74 GF/GP, 13th (out of 32 teams)
- 2.83 GA/GP, 22nd (out of 32 teams)

Those results are not great but they're average, there's no way to look at it and say it was "disastrous" (except if you have irrational bias) and even more considering the contexts he had to deal with (budget and players issues). I always blamed him for not hiring better and more experienced coaching staff, but how much could he really spend on that anyway?

But all that being said, the most important issue was the prospect pool that he had at the beginning of his tenure.

Prospects of 2007
1. Nick Foligno
2. Brian Lee
3. Kaspars Daugavins
4. Josh Hennessy
5. Brian Elliot
6. Igor Mirnov
7. Ilya Zubov
8. Cody Bass
9. Tomas Kudelka
10. Vitaly Anikeyenko

Prospects of 2006
1. D Brian Lee
2. F Alexei Kaigorodov
3. F Josh Hennessy
4. F Nick Foligno
5. F Igor Mirnov
6. D Kirill Lyamin
7. G Jeff Glass
8. F Ilya Zubov
9. D Michal Barinka
10. D Vitaly Anikeyenko
11. F Arttu Luttinen
12. F Kaspars Daugavins
13. F Shawn Weller
14. G Kelly Guard
15. F Alexander Nikulin
16. D Tomas Kudelka
17. G Brian Elliott
18. F Cody Bass
19. D Eric Gryba

That's absolutely awful. Out of all these guys, only Foligno and Elliott had decent NHL careers.

He's also the reason why the team had so much success in 2016-17, he's the one who built that team, that Dorion (following Melnyk orders) managed to destroy in not even a year.

From 2008 to 2016 (9 drafts), Murray and his staff drafted :

Erik Karlsson
Mark Stone
Thomas Chabot
Mika Zibanejad
Mike Hoffman
Ryan Dzingel
Jakob Silfverberg
Jean-Gabriel Pageau
Cody Ceci
Robin Lehner
Zack Smith

Jared Cowen
Chris Wideman
Mark Borowiecki
Stefan Noesen
Patrick Wiercioch
Shane Prince
Marcus Sorensen
Curtis Lazar
Derek Grant
Fredrik Claesson
Matt Puempel
Max McCormick

As well as those guys who are still prospects :

Christian Wolanin
Filip Chlapik

Colin White
Christian Jaros
Marcus Hogberg
Gabriel Gagne
Ben Harpur
Francis Perron
Joey Daccord

Andreas Englund

If Muckler had just 50% of that draft success, the Sens wouldn't have declined in the first place. Players regress, get injured, get older or just leave for all kind of reasons. A market like Ottawa, who is probably among the least desired destinations for UFAs, need to be able to inject talented youth when needed, something Murray didn't have the luxury to do thanks to Muckler awful drafting and trading."
 
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Silencio

Registered User
Nov 6, 2006
3,978
4,852
Toronto
I was talking with my brother in law over Christmas Eve dinner, he worked with the Sens for several years and still has contacts within the team. He basically confirmed the speculation in this thread - Bryan Murray was the glue holding the organization together, mainly due to the fact that he wasn't afraid to stand up to Melnyk. Dorion is a complete yes-man which is the only reason why he became and still is GM. Also said Karlsson is a really good dude and never heard a single thing about him being a locker room problem FWIW.
 

danielpalfredsson

youtube dot com /watch?v=CdqMZ_s7Y6k
Aug 14, 2013
16,575
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I was talking with my brother in law over Christmas Eve dinner, he worked with the Sens for several years and still has contacts within the team. He basically confirmed the speculation in this thread - Bryan Murray was the glue holding the organization together, mainly due to the fact that he wasn't afraid to stand up to Melnyk. Dorion is a complete yes-man which is the only reason why he became and still is GM. Also said Karlsson is a really good dude and never heard a single thing about him being a locker room problem FWIW.

All I am saying is that there is no proof that Santa would have delivered presents to kids this year if Karlsson was still a Senator.

We have no way of knowing if Karlsson would have pushed Santa off his sleigh in some instragram fueled rage. For that reason alone, I think the Senators are a better team after trading him for Dylan Demelo. (Also +/-)
 

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
15,988
9,554
There is 2 things to understand when comparing Murray and Dorion

- Salary cap has evolved. Murray also looked very restricted by budget issues but it didn't look as major back then when the cap was (much) lower.

- Melnyk is a PR disaster, Murray kept him in check. Now Melnyk is more central to the franchise.



The team peaked 2002-2007 but what was he really left with?

Alfredsson? Alfie was kept until he was 41 y/o, played 1 year elsewhere then retired

Heatley? He was kept 2 more years but then asked for a trade publicly, which put the team in a tough spot but the Sens dodged a huge bullet there because Heatley was primed for a steep decline 2 years, making current Ryan's contract like a bargain. They got younger cheaper Michalek who was a good Senator for years.

Spezza? He was kept 7 more years and was traded older 2-3 years before his decline too

Fisher? Got a 1st and a 3rd for him

Vermette? Got Leclaire and a 2nd, which turned in Lehner, which turned in Colin White.

Meszaros? Traded him for Kuba, Picard and a 1st. Meszaros is a bit similar to Ceci actually, fast start to his NHL career, then became "average". Let's see if Dorion can get that kind of package for Ceci

Phillips? Neil? Kept until retirement

Volchenkov? Kept him 3 more years, good decision to not extend him, he ended up bought up halfway through his next contract

Redden? kept him 1 year but declined faster than Heatley. Good decision to let him go.

Schaefer? Preissing? They were out of the league very fast

Emery? Gerber? no comment needed.

So what were those magical assets that Murray started with? Thing is the Sens had a terrible prospect pool. I Suggest you compare the prospect pool he had in 2007 vs the one Dorion had in 2016...

Drafting (and developping) is the most important thing for a NHL franchise and even more for a smaller market like Ottawa who is really not a desired destination for UFAs and who is operating on a smaller budget so they need good young players on ELC or RFA contracts.

I'll copy/paste a post that I have made in the past regarding this subject :

"There's absolutely nobody I miss more right now than Bryan Murray in my non-personal life. His teams were competitive with awful coaching and awful goaltending (until Anders0n). He had to deal with a lot of drama out of his control (Emery off-ice issues, Heatley disgruntled primadonna who put the team in a very bad spot to trade him (Murray still managed to get a top asset like Michalek), Spezza that can't deal with Canadian market pressure, Corvo asking to be traded out of a Canadian market, Redden sudden fall off a cliff after the death of his mother, etc). He also had to deal with budget restraints, even though the cap evolved, the Sens were not able to follow the dance (sounds familiar?). There's a reason he had a great reputation and was so much respected in the NHL community.

It's a results oriented business so let's take a look at it. After a very successful stint as a coach for the Senators (100-46-18 record for 2005-06 & 2006-07, winning 4 rounds in just 2 years, reaching the SCF), he was the Sens GM from 2007-08 to 2015-16. Here are some team stats for that period of time :

- Team record : 339-278-87
- 19th (out of 32 teams) in P% with 0.543
- Made the playoffs 5 times out of 9 years, winning 1 round (12-21 record)
- 2.74 GF/GP, 13th (out of 32 teams)
- 2.83 GA/GP, 22nd (out of 32 teams)

Those results are not great but they're average, there's no way to look at it and say it was "disastrous" (except if you have irrational bias) and even more considering the contexts he had to deal with (budget and players issues). I always blamed him for not hiring better and more experienced coaching staff, but how much could he really spend on that anyway?

But all that being said, the most important issue was the prospect pool that he had at the beginning of his tenure.

Prospects of 2007
1. Nick Foligno
2. Brian Lee
3. Kaspars Daugavins
4. Josh Hennessy
5. Brian Elliot
6. Igor Mirnov
7. Ilya Zubov
8. Cody Bass
9. Tomas Kudelka
10. Vitaly Anikeyenko

Prospects of 2006
1. D Brian Lee
2. F Alexei Kaigorodov
3. F Josh Hennessy
4. F Nick Foligno
5. F Igor Mirnov
6. D Kirill Lyamin
7. G Jeff Glass
8. F Ilya Zubov
9. D Michal Barinka
10. D Vitaly Anikeyenko
11. F Arttu Luttinen
12. F Kaspars Daugavins
13. F Shawn Weller
14. G Kelly Guard
15. F Alexander Nikulin
16. D Tomas Kudelka
17. G Brian Elliott
18. F Cody Bass
19. D Eric Gryba

That's absolutely awful. Out of all these guys, only Foligno and Elliott had decent NHL careers.

He's also the reason why the team had so much success in 2016-17, he's the one who built that team, that Dorion (following Melnyk orders) managed to destroy in not even a year.

From 2008 to 2016 (9 drafts), Murray and his staff drafted :

Erik Karlsson
Mark Stone
Thomas Chabot
Mika Zibanejad
Mike Hoffman
Ryan Dzingel
Jakob Silfverberg
Jean-Gabriel Pageau
Cody Ceci
Robin Lehner
Zack Smith

Jared Cowen
Chris Wideman
Mark Borowiecki
Stefan Noesen
Patrick Wiercioch
Shane Prince
Marcus Sorensen
Curtis Lazar
Derek Grant
Fredrik Claesson
Matt Puempel
Max McCormick

As well as those guys who are still prospects :

Christian Wolanin
Filip Chlapik

Colin White
Christian Jaros
Marcus Hogberg
Gabriel Gagne
Ben Harpur
Francis Perron
Joey Daccord

Andreas Englund

If Muckler had just 50% of that draft success, the Sens wouldn't have declined in the first place. Players regress, get injured, get older or just leave for all kind of reasons. A market like Ottawa, who is probably among the least desired destinations for UFAs, need to be able to inject talented youth when needed, something Murray didn't have the luxury to do thanks to Muckler awful drafting and trading."

I always appreciate the work you put in to your posts.

one difference the Murray era had that worked in his favour was better drafting positions. I am a Murray and was never a Muckler fan but he was starting every year from further back in the pack. That said I'll never forgive not grabbing Kopitar
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,138
30,351
All I am saying is that there is no proof that Santa would have delivered presents to kids this year if Karlsson was still a Senator.

We have no way of knowing if Karlsson would have pushed Santa off his sleigh in some instragram fueled rage. For that reason alone, I think the Senators are a better team after trading him for Dylan Demelo. (Also +/-)

While I totally concur with your analysis vis-à-vis Santa and Karlsson, I fail to see how it relates to Murray's tenure as GM. Is there a way to tie this back into the discussion at hand? Perhaps Murray's fatherly influence would have been able to keep Karlsson off the naughty list?
 
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JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
15,988
9,554
I was talking with my brother in law over Christmas Eve dinner, he worked with the Sens for several years and still has contacts within the team. He basically confirmed the speculation in this thread - Bryan Murray was the glue holding the organization together, mainly due to the fact that he wasn't afraid to stand up to Melnyk. Dorion is a complete yes-man which is the only reason why he became and still is GM. Also said Karlsson is a really good dude and never heard a single thing about him being a locker room problem FWIW.

so I don't want to dispute your BIL's viewpoint but I think saying the ONLY reason that PD became the GM is because he is a yes man is a little dismissive of his career to the point he was appointed GM. PD at that point had a very successful career in the industry working in multiple roles for multiple positions and as a candidate for promotion to GM he likely would have been on the radar of other teams had he not been promoted here.
 

Burrowsaurus

Registered User
Mar 20, 2013
42,061
15,794
I always appreciate the work you put in to your posts.

one difference the Murray era had that worked in his favour was better drafting positions. I am a Murray and was never a Muckler fan but he was starting every year from further back in the pack. That said I'll never forgive not grabbing Kopitar
That was muckler.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,138
30,351
I always appreciate the work you put in to your posts.

one difference the Murray era had that worked in his favour was better drafting positions. I am a Murray and was never a Muckler fan but he was starting every year from further back in the pack. That said I'll never forgive not grabbing Kopitar

Muckler's main drafting failure (aside for Lee over Kopitar, man was I fuming over that one...) was betting on Russians. At the time, it seems like a good med risk high reward strategy. The quality of Russians available in the 2nd round and onward seemed skewed because of the KHL threat. The first round picks for the most part wasn't a big problem, Klepis and Lee were misses, but in Klepis' case, there wasn't a homerun obvious pick we missed on by choosing him.

Murray's success came from finding gems in the later rounds thanks to a strong focus on scouting.
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
28,465
8,994
Muckler's main drafting failure (aside for Lee over Kopitar, man was I fuming over that one...) was betting on Russians. At the time, it seems like a good med risk high reward strategy. The quality of Russians available in the 2nd round and onward seemed skewed because of the KHL threat. The first round picks for the most part wasn't a big problem, Klepis and Lee were misses, but in Klepis' case, there wasn't a homerun obvious pick we missed on by choosing him.

Murray's success came from finding gems in the later rounds thanks to a strong focus on scouting.
I remember having many arguments with people over that strategy to draft so many Russians over what I thought were better prospects. John Muckler was a very nice man, I met him several times at development camps & he was very nice & talkative. However, he was a terrible GM here that set this franchise back IMO with his drafting strategy & that Lee pick over Kopitar was the worst.
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,276
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Ottabot City
At the end of the day Murray convinced Melnyk to fire Muckler and hire him as GM. He knew what he was getting into. I think he told Melnyk he could work his magic and get us back to the finals. After 2010 it was clear that wasn't going to happen he then convinced Melnyk to do a rebuild on the fly. That's why we kept Spezza, Alfredsson, and Karlsson around, to keep fans optimistic and still in the stands All of those high draft picks turned out to be duds. and we became and average team who needed crazy runs to make the playoffs or just miss them out right. The year we lost to Pittsburgh was the worst thing that could have happened to this team. We were never actually that good, just had a good run with good match ups. I don't know how much Murray's sickness played into him speeding up the rebuild process but it was clear there was no plan any of them wanted to stick too.
 

Senscore

Let's keep it cold
Nov 19, 2012
19,850
14,472
There is 2 things to understand when comparing Murray and Dorion

- Salary cap has evolved. Murray also looked very restricted by budget issues but it didn't look as major back then when the cap was (much) lower.

- Melnyk is a PR disaster, Murray kept him in check. Now Melnyk is more central to the franchise.



The team peaked 2002-2007 but what was he really left with?

Alfredsson? Alfie was kept until he was 41 y/o, played 1 year elsewhere then retired

Heatley? He was kept 2 more years but then asked for a trade publicly, which put the team in a tough spot but the Sens dodged a huge bullet there because Heatley was primed for a steep decline 2 years, making current Ryan's contract like a bargain. They got younger cheaper Michalek who was a good Senator for years.

Spezza? He was kept 7 more years and was traded older 2-3 years before his decline too

Fisher? Got a 1st and a 3rd for him

Vermette? Got Leclaire and a 2nd, which turned in Lehner, which turned in Colin White.

Meszaros? Traded him for Kuba, Picard and a 1st. Meszaros is a bit similar to Ceci actually, fast start to his NHL career, then became "average". Let's see if Dorion can get that kind of package for Ceci

Phillips? Neil? Kept until retirement

Volchenkov? Kept him 3 more years, good decision to not extend him, he ended up bought up halfway through his next contract

Redden? kept him 1 year but declined faster than Heatley. Good decision to let him go.

Schaefer? Preissing? They were out of the league very fast

Emery? Gerber? no comment needed.

So what were those magical assets that Murray started with? Thing is the Sens had a terrible prospect pool. I Suggest you compare the prospect pool he had in 2007 vs the one Dorion had in 2016...

Drafting (and developping) is the most important thing for a NHL franchise and even more for a smaller market like Ottawa who is really not a desired destination for UFAs and who is operating on a smaller budget so they need good young players on ELC or RFA contracts.

I'll copy/paste a post that I have made in the past regarding this subject :

"There's absolutely nobody I miss more right now than Bryan Murray in my non-personal life. His teams were competitive with awful coaching and awful goaltending (until Anders0n). He had to deal with a lot of drama out of his control (Emery off-ice issues, Heatley disgruntled primadonna who put the team in a very bad spot to trade him (Murray still managed to get a top asset like Michalek), Spezza that can't deal with Canadian market pressure, Corvo asking to be traded out of a Canadian market, Redden sudden fall off a cliff after the death of his mother, etc). He also had to deal with budget restraints, even though the cap evolved, the Sens were not able to follow the dance (sounds familiar?). There's a reason he had a great reputation and was so much respected in the NHL community.

It's a results oriented business so let's take a look at it. After a very successful stint as a coach for the Senators (100-46-18 record for 2005-06 & 2006-07, winning 4 rounds in just 2 years, reaching the SCF), he was the Sens GM from 2007-08 to 2015-16. Here are some team stats for that period of time :

- Team record : 339-278-87
- 19th (out of 32 teams) in P% with 0.543
- Made the playoffs 5 times out of 9 years, winning 1 round (12-21 record)
- 2.74 GF/GP, 13th (out of 32 teams)
- 2.83 GA/GP, 22nd (out of 32 teams)

Those results are not great but they're average, there's no way to look at it and say it was "disastrous" (except if you have irrational bias) and even more considering the contexts he had to deal with (budget and players issues). I always blamed him for not hiring better and more experienced coaching staff, but how much could he really spend on that anyway?

But all that being said, the most important issue was the prospect pool that he had at the beginning of his tenure.

Prospects of 2007
1. Nick Foligno
2. Brian Lee
3. Kaspars Daugavins
4. Josh Hennessy
5. Brian Elliot
6. Igor Mirnov
7. Ilya Zubov
8. Cody Bass
9. Tomas Kudelka
10. Vitaly Anikeyenko

Prospects of 2006
1. D Brian Lee
2. F Alexei Kaigorodov
3. F Josh Hennessy
4. F Nick Foligno
5. F Igor Mirnov
6. D Kirill Lyamin
7. G Jeff Glass
8. F Ilya Zubov
9. D Michal Barinka
10. D Vitaly Anikeyenko
11. F Arttu Luttinen
12. F Kaspars Daugavins
13. F Shawn Weller
14. G Kelly Guard
15. F Alexander Nikulin
16. D Tomas Kudelka
17. G Brian Elliott
18. F Cody Bass
19. D Eric Gryba

That's absolutely awful. Out of all these guys, only Foligno and Elliott had decent NHL careers.

He's also the reason why the team had so much success in 2016-17, he's the one who built that team, that Dorion (following Melnyk orders) managed to destroy in not even a year.

From 2008 to 2016 (9 drafts), Murray and his staff drafted :

Erik Karlsson
Mark Stone
Thomas Chabot
Mika Zibanejad
Mike Hoffman
Ryan Dzingel
Jakob Silfverberg
Jean-Gabriel Pageau
Cody Ceci
Robin Lehner
Zack Smith

Jared Cowen
Chris Wideman
Mark Borowiecki
Stefan Noesen
Patrick Wiercioch
Shane Prince
Marcus Sorensen
Curtis Lazar
Derek Grant
Fredrik Claesson
Matt Puempel
Max McCormick

As well as those guys who are still prospects :

Christian Wolanin
Filip Chlapik

Colin White
Christian Jaros
Marcus Hogberg
Gabriel Gagne
Ben Harpur
Francis Perron
Joey Daccord

Andreas Englund

If Muckler had just 50% of that draft success, the Sens wouldn't have declined in the first place. Players regress, get injured, get older or just leave for all kind of reasons. A market like Ottawa, who is probably among the least desired destinations for UFAs, need to be able to inject talented youth when needed, something Murray didn't have the luxury to do thanks to Muckler awful drafting and trading."



First of all, I do agree Muckler left the prospect pool fairly barren. Never suggested otherwise. So that's settled.

As for the rest of it, beginning your tenure with a Stanley Cup finalist team with two elite forwards in their prime and a Captain who, while on the older side, still had a lot left in the tank, is a damn good starting position most guys don't get. Usually it's a franchise in ruins that needs to be built from the ground up.

You can go down a list and point to issues with individual players, but ultimately it's Murray's job to be aware of such things and take appropriate action when they arise. The team took an immediate drop into slow mediocrity under his reign, and although I give him and Dorion credit for rebuilding the prospect pool, the rest of the franchise sputtered out in grand fashion. Despite Karlsson's status as a generational player, we still only ended up the top seed in a playoff round twice since 2007, both times due to the new divisional rules (one of those times being against a team that actually finished the season with more points). Somewhat of an arbitrary distinction maybe but the last time we were actually a top 4 seed in the conference was 2007. Also the last time we hit 100 points.

Despite all the exciting young players we have seen come to this franchise (and then go) in the time since, we are still nowhere near the 2007 team Murray inherited. So yeah I found him disappointing because maybe I was hoping for more than perpetual mediocrity, especially after finding a player like Karlsson.
 
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Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,276
3,689
Ottabot City
First of all, I do agree Muckler left the prospect pool fairly barren. Never suggested otherwise. So that's settled.

As for the rest of it, beginning your tenure with a Stanley Cup finalist team with two elite forwards in their prime and a Captain who, while on the older side, still had a lot left in the tank, is a damn good starting position most guys don't get. Usually it's a franchise in ruins that needs to be built from the ground up.

You can go down a list and point to issues with individual players, but ultimately it's Murray's job to be aware of such things and take appropriate action when they arise. The team took an immediate drop into slow mediocrity under his reign, and although I give him and Dorion credit for rebuilding the prospect pool, the rest of the franchise sputtered out in grand fashion. Despite Karlsson's status as a generational player, we still only ended up the top seed in a playoff round twice since 2007, both times due to the new divisional rules (one of those times being against a team that actually finished the season with more points). Somewhat of an arbitrary distinction maybe but the last time we were actually a top 4 seed in the conference was 2007. Also the last time we hit 100 points.

Despite all the exciting young players we have seen come to this franchise (and then go) in the time since, we are still nowhere near the 2007 team Murray inherited. So yeah I found him disappointing because maybe I was hoping for more than perpetual mediocrity, especially after finding a player like Karlsson.
I have no doubt Melnyk was a big part of preventing Murray from putting his true stamp on the team But who's to say because of Murray's inability to produced what he claimed didn't make Melnyk tighten the reins? I never thought Heatley was a Murray type player and we all know that Melnyk had to resign him to appease the fans but I think the whole Clouston thing was set up to be able to move on from him.

Murray, for us, was an average GM who didn't lead us to success on the ice. They way he dealt with players in the media was very negative. If he would have been 10 years younger and took over as GM he could have been more successful.
 

supsens

Registered User
Oct 6, 2013
6,577
2,000
I agree that Murray was a mediocre GM (although I do think he was a fantastic coach), but after resigning in 2016, he left the team with:

• A future HOF #1 defenseman, Erik Karlsson, who was 25 and had already won two Norris trophies
• Two premier point-producing wingers, Stone and Hoffman, both of whom were under 25
• A 6'2, 215 lb center who had just put up 50 points at 22 years old (Zibanejad)
• Good, young, core players like Turris and Pageau

That, as a starting point for any new GM, was great.

In two years, Dorion turned that into this.

I'm not really sure you can you can pin Hoffman and karrlson being off the team on Dorian, Ziban being gone sucks but they brought in an older playoff guy to go for it. Things fell apart and now it's rebuild time. Brady and Norris are going to be a hardnosed secong line that is going to be a nightmare to play. The first line will be the 1st and 3rd overall picks from the next few years. I am pulling for full rebuild
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,276
3,689
Ottabot City
I'm not really sure you can you can pin Hoffman and karrlson being off the team on Dorian, Ziban being gone sucks but they brought in an older playoff guy to go for it. Things fell apart and now it's rebuild time. Brady and Norris are going to be a hardnosed secong line that is going to be a nightmare to play. The first line will be the 1st and 3rd overall picks from the next few years. I am pulling for full rebuild
GM's not knowing how to stick to a plan. Keep your high picks and wait until you are ready to make moves. Don't sacrifice picks to make you ready.
 

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