HF Habs: Off-Season Discussion Part III: Ain't Got No #1 Centre Edition

[WeThreeKings]

Our roster is better than not-bad. It's a legit playoff team that's been near the top of the EC the last three seasons, which includes seasons when Price was merely good (2013) and merely top-5 (2014). In other words, even without Vezina/Hart Price from 2015, the Habs are a winning team, albeit not at 110-points.

The only weakness is another forward who can bury pucks. A pretty fundamental weakness I admit, but a very focused one. With Petry, plus an emerging Beaulieu and Pateryn, the D is set. So is the secondary scoring and solid two-way play up-front (in theory). As we saw this playoffs, Habs can play a solid shutdown game against strong offensive teams, while generating a good amount of chances. Considering we played Tampa as tough as the Rangers have so far, that's a good sign. Just need better hands to finish those chances. Assuming we don't get a 1st-line forward via trade or UFA, that pair of hands will have to come from one of our top prospects. I doubt Andrighetto, Hudon, Scherbak or Reway will become the next Tyler Johnson, but if any of them show genuine shooting finesse, it might be enough. I'll settle for two solid 2nd lines if we can't get a powerful 1st-line. With a high-end defence and goaltending in place, improving our offence from bottom-tier to mid-pack would make a huge difference.

The thing is.. Andrighetto has shown similar production to Kucherov at every level. We just didn't give him a further chance after he put up 3 pts in 3 games on the 2nd line. Hudon's rookie season was incredible in Hamilton.. both Ghetto and Hudon have put up good points at the AHL level on a team that doesn't score much, plays the same horrid system as we do in the NHL and an incompetent PP like we see at the NHL level (DA SYSTEM!!).

If we truly want to transition then we groom Big Mac and Scherbak in the AHL this season, bring up Ghetto and Hudon.

My plan:

Waive/Trade DD (mid-round pick if we can)
Waive/Trade PAP (mid-round pick if we can)
Trade Markov for a promising young D prospect close to breaking the NHL from a contending team (plus a draft pick)
Re-Sign Petry
Sign Frolik
Move Galchenyuk to center
Promote Eller to 2C
Put Plekanec in a 3C role.
Re-sign Mitchell

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Frolik (Galchenyuk has a natural goal scorer and two wingers who are great defensively, carrying a lot of the burden for him and allowing him to be creative offensively)
Hudon-Eller-Gallagher (This line can play both ways).
DLR-Plekanec-Andrighetto (Plekanec and JDLR are playing the shut-down role, Ghetto learns to play in his own end with these guys taking pressure, while Plekanec can still play offensively with Ghetto and JDLR has the ability to develop his offense here as well)
Prust-Mitchell-DSP/Weise (Typical crash and bang fourth line).

Beaulieu-Subban (increase Beaulieu's responsibility and develop)
Emelin-Petry (Worked in the play-offs..)
Tinordi-Gilbert (Time to develop Tinner at the NHL level.. Gilberts mobility and puck movement can help him)
Pateryn

Price
Toker

 

[417]

In reality I don't think our roster is all that bad, but I just dislike the system we play and total mindless offensive presence.

We have Carey Price, I get it, MB says defense wins championships, that's great, I agree, but we just looked miserable in the playoffs imo.

Re-sign Petry, trade Plekanec for a scoring winger.

The pro scouting has to do their due diligence to find players that are undervalued by their teams...those are the guys you have to go after imo.

Agreed...it's just not equipped to deal with the upper echelon teams that are currently in the playoffs. The Bolts/Rags and Ducks/Hawks are clearly a level above the Habs.

But the Habs are right there. Like I said, they are 2 top 6 forwards away IMO.

On the bright side, I think one of those forwards is already on the team (Galchenyuk), he just needs to mature a bit more and take on a bigger role and push one of Desharnais/Plekanec out of the top 6.

 

[417]

Our roster is better than not-bad. It's a legit playoff team that's been near the top of the EC the last three seasons, which includes seasons when Price was merely good (2013) and merely top-5 (2014). In other words, even without Vezina/Hart Price from 2015, the Habs are a winning team, albeit not at 110-points.

The only weakness is another forward who can bury pucks. A pretty fundamental weakness I admit, but a very focused one. With Petry, plus an emerging Beaulieu and Pateryn, the D is set. So is the secondary scoring and solid two-way play up-front (in theory). As we saw this playoffs, Habs can play a solid shutdown game against strong offensive teams, while generating a good amount of chances. Considering we played Tampa as tough as the Rangers have so far, that's a good sign. Just need better hands to finish those chances. Assuming we don't get a 1st-line forward via trade or UFA, that pair of hands will have to come from one of our top prospects. I doubt Andrighetto, Hudon, Scherbak or Reway will become the next Tyler Johnson, but if any of them show genuine shooting finesse, it might be enough. I'll settle for two solid 2nd lines if we can't get a powerful 1st-line. With a high-end defence and goaltending in place, improving our offence from bottom-tier to mid-pack would make a huge difference.

I've been a big Plekanec fan and still think he's very valuable to the Habs game, but I could see using him as the main piece in a trade for more offensive potential. Whoever we'd get would have to have more potential than simply replacing Plek's 20 goals.

Agreed and i'm convinced that MB sees it the same way. I know many here don't like the idea of trading Plekanec, but honestly, who else are you going to move in order to improve the team?

 

[Capitano]

Agreed...it's just not equipped to deal with the upper echelon teams that are currently in the playoffs. The Bolts/Rags and Ducks/Hawks are clearly a level above the Habs.

But the Habs are right there. Like I said, they are 2 top 6 forwards away IMO.

On the bright side, I think one of those forwards is already on the team (Galchenyuk), he just needs to mature a bit more and take on a bigger role and push one of Desharnais/Plekanec out of the top 6.

I have hope for Chucky, but I really worry about him being stifled creatively with this system. We have an uncanny way of destroying players...I remember when SKost came to Montreal (not that I'm comparing Chucky and SKost mind you), he was so smart...made very clever plays with the puck...found lanes that just didn't seem to be there but he found them...made good passes to players without turning his head to see them...he was crafty...then a couple years later he was a shadow of himself and the artistry was GONE.

I worry about Chucky going the same route...or at least being limited because of the leash that is on pretty much our entire team.

 

[Capitano]

Agreed and i'm convinced that MB sees it the same way. I know many here don't like the idea of trading Plekanec, but honestly, who else are you going to move in order to improve the team?

It's time to move on for sure. He doesn't scare me at all, I'd trade him anywhere for the right return.

 

[417]

It's time to move on for sure. He doesn't scare me at all, I'd trade him anywhere for the right return.

Plekanec & Emelin...those are 2 players that if i'm MB, i'm not giving away, but i'm shopping to see if there's a team out there that's looking for more experience and is willing to move draft picks/established young players.

 

[OnTheRun]

Moving Plekanec is totally fine, as long as you get a proper return for him.

Can't fail this trade however, it's going to be a disaster if MB fail on a trade like that.

 

[Milhouse40]

Moving Plekanec is totally fine, as long as you get a proper return for him.

Can't fail this trade however, it's going to be a disaster if MB fail on a trade like that.

But we must not forget that a team won't give a lot for a player who will be UFA by the end of the season.

 

[Kriss E]

Agreed and i'm convinced that MB sees it the same way. I know many here don't like the idea of trading Plekanec, but honestly, who else are you going to move in order to improve the team?

Yes, they don't like the idea of trading the best center we have when we are already lacking at that position. So it really depends on the return. I'd be all for trading Plekanec, but going into next year with DD-Eller-Galchenyuk or DLR or AHL prospect, is one heck of a stupid plan.
Sure, it might work out, IF Eller and Galchenyuk step up. But it's so stupid to gamble that way. They wasted a year by not finding out what Galchenyuk's and Eller's potential could be as offensive centers. And quite frankly, DD has no business on the top 2 lines.
So ya, it's all good to trade Plekanec for a good winger. It could work. It could also be disastrous.

 

[jwrocks1]

But we must not forget that a team won't give a lot for a player who will be UFA by the end of the season.

Really? Didn't the Islanders do just that this year? (Boychuck)

 

[HabsDieHard*]

But we must not forget that a team won't give a lot for a player who will be UFA by the end of the season.

Look at waht Spezza got for the Senators, and in a pretty similar situation as well all things considered.

Any Plekanec trade significantly weakens the teams' center depth.

I've lost all faith in Bergevin.

I fully expect him to deal Plekanec for some overrated "Good ol' Canadian" and continue to have his head in the sand about Desharnais' status on this team.

Anyone complaining about Plekx' playoff production needs to acknowledge what a big role he played all seaosn long, in every situation, and look at other centers' playoff production compared ot him and wonder if he really is part of the problem.

Plekanec isn't going to bring in a high end prospect and a top pick, so all these arguments about "trade him because the team needs improvements and how else can they get him" need to just stop.

 

[groovejuice]

But we must not forget that a team won't give a lot for a player who will be UFA by the end of the season.

Unless that team is on a short list of places Pleks is willing to go to. That's gives them a leg up during extension negotiations.

 

[jwrocks1]

Yes, they don't like the idea of trading the best center we have when we are already lacking at that position. So it really depends on the return. I'd be all for trading Plekanec, but going into next year with DD-Eller-Galchenyuk or DLR or AHL prospect, is one heck of a stupid plan.
Sure, it might work out, IF Eller and Galchenyuk step up. But it's so stupid to gamble that way. They wasted a year by not finding out what Galchenyuk's and Eller's potential could be as offensive centers. And quite frankly, DD has no business on the top 2 lines.
So ya, it's all good to trade Plekanec for a good winger. It could work. It could also be disastrous.

if the plan is for Galch to be a centre, and moving Pleks for a high end RW is part of it. If that winger is a high end 2-way guy, it would be enough to insulate Galch defensively, all while adding more offensive punch.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

Really? Didn't the Islanders do just that this year? (Boychuck)

Not really, they got a couple of 2nd round picks.

Jason Spezza got Alex Chiasson, forward prospects Alex Guptill and Nicholas Paul and a second-round pick.

Ryan Kesler got Nick Bonino, Luca Sbisa and a 1st.

However we feel Plekanec compares to those 2, it's pretty obvious that in neither situation did the team improve as a result of the deal.

I'd be totally cool with the Habs dealing Plekx for a couple of picks, even fi the best one was a late 1st, or even an unknown 1st in 2016...

But they need to significantly shore up the center depth if they do that.

Otherwise this team is just going to take a big step back next year and waste ANOTHER one of Prices' prime years.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

if the plan is for Galch to be a centre, and moving Pleks for a high end RW is part of it. If that winger is a high end 2-way guy, it would be enough to insulate Galch defensively, all while adding more offensive punch.

So at his year end press conference Bergevin says he doesn't know if Galchenyuk will ever be a center.

Then he trades the teams' best center (by far) to acquire a high end 2 way winger (a big stretch I might add) even though the team already has a perfect fit, and solid reliable 2 way guy, in Pacioretty.

And this...improves the team?

 

[Lshap]

The thing is.. Andrighetto has shown similar production to Kucherov at every level. We just didn't give him a further chance after he put up 3 pts in 3 games on the 2nd line. Hudon's rookie season was incredible in Hamilton.. both Ghetto and Hudon have put up good points at the AHL level on a team that doesn't score much, plays the same horrid system as we do in the NHL and an incompetent PP like we see at the NHL level (DA SYSTEM!!).

If we truly want to transition then we groom Big Mac and Scherbak in the AHL this season, bring up Ghetto and Hudon.

My plan:

Waive/Trade DD (mid-round pick if we can)
Waive/Trade PAP (mid-round pick if we can)
Trade Markov for a promising young D prospect close to breaking the NHL from a contending team (plus a draft pick)
Re-Sign Petry
Sign Frolik
Move Galchenyuk to center
Promote Eller to 2C
Put Plekanec in a 3C role.
Re-sign Mitchell

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Frolik (Galchenyuk has a natural goal scorer and two wingers who are great defensively, carrying a lot of the burden for him and allowing him to be creative offensively)
Hudon-Eller-Gallagher (This line can play both ways).
DLR-Plekanec-Andrighetto (Plekanec and JDLR are playing the shut-down role, Ghetto learns to play in his own end with these guys taking pressure, while Plekanec can still play offensively with Ghetto and JDLR has the ability to develop his offense here as well)
Prust-Mitchell-DSP/Weise (Typical crash and bang fourth line).

Beaulieu-Subban (increase Beaulieu's responsibility and develop)
Emelin-Petry (Worked in the play-offs..)
Tinordi-Gilbert (Time to develop Tinner at the NHL level.. Gilberts mobility and puck movement can help him)
Pateryn

Price
Toker

Not a bad lineup. Frolik would be great, though I'm curious about the cap space with two added salaries for him and Petry. Depending on which salaries come off the books, Bergevin should be taking a serious look at some of the UFA forwards on Winnipeg and Washington.

I also agree about Ghetto/Hudon. The good news is we'll probably get our wish. Pretty sure one or both will be getting a serious look throughout next season. And if our system can adapt for the playoffs -- which it did successfully -- I think it'll adapt slightly to a more offensive style during the season if more players show they have the hands to pull it off.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Markov or Desharnais to be traded. Won't happen. I'll stick to my prediction that Desharnais will shuttle between 1st and 3rd-lines, eventually ending up on the 3rd-line permanently, where he'll be effective. Markov... it's time to transition from 1st-pair to 2nd/3rd-pair/mentor status.

I defended Parenteau for a long time. Proven potential that never gelled. He either finds his mojo alongside a complentary skill guy like Andrighetto/Hudon, or he's gone.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Not a bad lineup. Frolik would be great, though I'm curious about the cap space with two added salaries for him and Petry. Depending on which salaries come off the books, Bergevin should be taking a serious look at some of the UFA forwards on Winnipeg and Washington.

I also agree about Ghetto/Hudon. The good news is we'll probably get our wish. Pretty sure one or both will be getting a serious look throughout next season. And if our system can adapt for the playoffs -- which it did successfully -- I think it'll adapt slightly to a more offensive style during the season if more players show they have the hands to pull it off.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Markov or Desharnais to be traded. Won't happen. I'll stick to my prediction that Desharnais will shuttle between 1st and 3rd-lines, eventually ending up on the 3rd-line permanently, where he'll be effective. Markov... it's time to transition from 1st-pair to 2nd/3rd-pair/mentor status.

I defended Parenteau for a long time. Proven potential that never gelled. He either finds his mojo alongside a complentary skill guy like Andrighetto/Hudon, or he's gone.

Markov out is 5.75
Desharnais out is 3.5
Parenteau out is 4.5

That's about 14 million out.

 

[jwrocks1]

So at his year end press conference Bergevin says he doesn't know if Galchenyuk will ever be a center.

Then he trades the teams' best center (by far) to acquire a high end 2 way winger (a big stretch I might add) even though the team already has a perfect fit, and solid reliable 2 way guy, in Pacioretty.

And this...improves the team?

yes. let's take the GM who is negotiating a contract with a player at his word...especially when that word woul declare his entire off-season plan. Because you know, that always happens. And it's great we have Patches, and Gallagher (also pretty good 2-way). But who do we have for secondary scoring again?

Also....you can read the post again and see the part where I wrote "if the plan is"

If you can stop blindly hating the GM for a couple posts, you'd notice this team isn't as horrible as you would hope it is.

 

[WeThreeKings]

yes. let's take the GM who is negotiating a contract with a player at his word...especially when that word woul declare his entire off-season plan. Because you know, that always happens. And it's great we have Patches, and Gallagher (also pretty good 2-way). But who do we have for secondary scoring again?

Also....you can read the post again and see the part where I wrote "if the plan is"

If you can stop blindly hating the GM for a couple posts, you'd notice this team isn't as horrible as you would hope it is.

Doesn't matter how great a boat the Titanic was.. it still had a captain drive it straight into a ****ing iceberg.

 

[OnTheRun]

But we must not forget that a team won't give a lot for a player who will be UFA by the end of the season.

Well that's Bergevin's problem, not ours.

If they had bothered to grooms Galchenyuk/Eller for increased responsibilities during the transition year. They wouldn't be in a situation where they have no margin for errors in a trade involving Plekanec.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

Doesn't matter how great a boat the Titanic was.. it still had a captain drive it straight into a ****ing iceberg.

I like how if you raise concerns it just must mean you wish this team was "horrible".

It's such an interesting discussion tactic.

 

[HabsDieHard*]

Markov out is 5.75
Desharnais out is 3.5
Parenteau out is 4.5

That's about 14 million out.

Dunno why Markov needs to go anywehre, he played like a top 25 d-man the vast majority of the year.

Shave off 75% of his 200+ penalty killing minutes.

Sit him on 4-5 b2b games.

And all of a sudden you don't even need to turn him into a 2nd, or 3rd pairing d-man.

Or hell, maybe a few times even go with an 11/7 approach, double shift Gallagher/Pacioretty/Eller the odd time and use that as a way to manage his minutes.

Smart teams know how to manage the minutes of their most important veterans.

There was no need to play Markov as much as they did.

And the fact that us casual fans could recognize that in January 2014 and somehow in May 2015 it was a glaring issue is troublesome.

Almost as troublesome as Bergevin bristling at the idea of fans having complaints about Therriens' coaching.

But hey, next year when the team puts up their 110 point banner all will be well in the world.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Dunno why Markov needs to go anywehre, he played like a top 25 d-man the vast majority of the year.

Shave off 75% of his 200+ penalty killing minutes.

Sit him on 4-5 b2b games.

And all of a sudden you don't even need to turn him into a 2nd, or 3rd pairing d-man.

Or hell, maybe a few times even go with an 11/7 approach, double shift Gallagher/Pacioretty/Eller the odd time and use that as a way to manage his minutes.

Smart teams know how to manage the minutes of their most important veterans.

There was no need to play Markov as much as they did.

And the fact that us casual fans could recognize that in January 2014 and somehow in May 2015 it was a glaring issue is troublesome.

Almost as troublesome as Bergevin bristling at the idea of fans having complaints about Therriens' coaching.

But hey, next year when the team puts up their 110 point banner all will be well in the world.

Well, I would keep Markov if we were going to contend next year. I'm operating there under the pretense of the "transition year". We can't keep transitioning and keep Markov. His best days are close to behind him. Move him while his value is still there, 'cause in 2-3 seasons, it might not be.

 

[jwrocks1]

Doesn't matter how great a boat the Titanic was.. it still had a captain drive it straight into a ****ing iceberg.

there is a difference between titanic levels of fail and what Bergevin has done thus far. He has been far from perfect, but he has helped improve the team. This summer will be the tell all on his time here, if he doesn't improve the top 6 and get that secondary scoring we desperately need, then he will have failed to improve this team.

I like how if you raise concerns it just must mean you wish this team was "horrible".

It's such an interesting discussion tactic.

If you can admit to anything this current management team has done well, and not just crap on the mistakes, then, maybe then I can believe you actually give a crap about the team, and not just blindly hating for your own entertainment

 

[HabsDieHard*]

Well, I would keep Markov if we were going to contend next year. I'm operating there under the pretense of the "transition year". We can't keep transitioning and keep Markov. His best days are close to behind him. Move him while his value is still there, 'cause in 2-3 seasons, it might not be.

Throwing away prime years of Price/Pacioretty on their bargain contracts would be asinine.

Bergevin needs to start actually improving the team, instead of prattling on about the future and this god damn inane "transition year" nonsense.