Proposal: NYR-EDM: 25th + 30th Overall for 10th Overall

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Like you, I've been on these boards a LONG time. I remember plenty of trade requests for Hall in his first few years and I don't remember Oiler fans entertaining ANY of them until well after we had Ebs, Nuge, Hall and had just drafted another winger in Yak... and even then it was in exchange for an established or potential #1D not a quantity deal.

Bern considers 1 poster agreeing with his cockamamie proposals as "lots of positive feedback."

 

[haveandare]

You're generalizing everybody together. Foote++ - So if the package was Foote, 1st, Howden, how much different would that have been than what the Rangers received? The problem was including Miller - what was Miller worth? How much did we really get for McDonagh vs what Miller's worth.

For months, we also read from fans who didn't included Sergachev or any roster player in what they wanted.

Exactly. Proposals asking for Sergachev were routinely shot down by other Ranger fans as unrealistic in the days leading up to the deadline.

The fact that Miller being involved makes it hard to determine what the return for McD alone was is just that - a fact.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Lol no, he boasted about rangers getting at least what they expected in the nash/grabner deals, and then tried to make up some awful excuse when ranger fans were wrong.

The rangers got no where near what their fans thought they would. for months we read several posts, "stating a fact" that any deal for McDonagh starts with Sergachev, hell even Foote++.

That post doesn't exactly seem like boasting and that poster isn't the boasting type. You seem to have an agenda and a lot of your posts in this thread of come off as snarky for no reason whatsoever.

You can go on talking about how some might have said what you've said in quotations, as anyone who speaks in an absolute like that is obviously misguided, but he clearly stated in the other part of the post that you quoted that no one actually knows what player will get what return at any point.

Most of us were right about what Nash and Grabner would return. No one knew what McDonagh would return because that deal got expanded last minute when the Rangers decided they wanted to move JT Miller as well.

So whatever you'd like to say about McDonagh doesn't really hold any water as no one knew Miller was being included as well.

 

[TGWL]

I wanted a 1st, Rayddsh/Howden, Foote for McDonagh

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

id do it for 16

 

[One Winged Angel]

I wanted a 1st, Rayddsh/Howden, Foote for McDonagh

That's what I thought McDonagh would return. One would think that the return wasn't that far off, considering that a 1st and Howden were in the deal. Maybe the Rangers preferred Hajek to Foote? I'm not sure, but the basis of what we thought would go for McDonagh was in fact apart of the deal, in a 1st round pick and 2 top prospects.

However, there is no basis to judge this deal and say X was the return for McDonagh and Y was the return for Miller, as it was all in one deal and not 2 seperate deals.

 

[AvatarAang]

That's what I thought McDonagh would return. One would think that the return wasn't that far off, considering that a 1st and Howden were in the deal. Maybe the Rangers preferred Hajek to Foote? I'm not sure, but the basis of what we thought would go for McDonagh was in fact apart of the deal, in a 1st round pick and 2 top prospects.

However, there is no basis to judge this deal and say X was the return for McDonagh and Y was the return for Miller, as it was all in one deal and not 2 seperate deals.

oh give me a break there is no chance the rangers preferred hajek over a guy selected in the top half of the 1st round last year. foote > hajek even if you ignore draft pedigree.

and yes, the majority of ranger fans were quite far off.

miller > names, so it's pretty safe logic to assume that the rangers got less value than 1st + howden + hajek for McDonagh, which is a huge difference than the Sergachev and Foote proposals we were hearing.

also funny to see rangers fans getting so worked up, like relax sometimes you get them right (grabner) and then sometimes your fanbase is completely wrong (mcdonagh).

 

[One Winged Angel]

oh give me a break there is no chance the rangers preferred hajek over a guy selected in the top half of the 1st round last year. foote > hajek even if you ignore draft pedigree.

I'm not saying that Foote is or isn't a better prospect, nor am I saying they did or did not prefer one to the other. Again, I don't speak in absolutes. I dont work for the organization. While I have connections, I don't have that inside information.

and yes, the majority of ranger fans were quite far off.

You continue to lump every fan in with a chose few, which is an ignorant approach. However, most of us (not all) thought that a 1st and two top prospects would be in the deal for McDonagh and not only that, but the majority of us had Howden as one of the prospects that would have been in there. So Hajek was in there instead of Foote. How is that "far off?" Hajek was still one of their top prospects, even the experts have said so.

Your agenda shows.

miller > names, so it's pretty safe logic to assume that the rangers got less value than 1st + howden + hajek for McDonagh, which is a huge difference than the Sergachev and Foote proposals we were hearing.

The first part of this is an assumption, at best. No one actually knows. Are you Jeff Gorton or Steve Yzerman?

As previously explained to you several times in this thread, the words of a chosen few do not speak for an entire fanbase. You can go back and play revisionist history and semantics, but the majority of Rangers fans didn't think either of them were realistic options, just players they wanted in return.

also funny to see rangers fans getting so worked up, like relax sometimes you get them right (grabner) and then sometimes your fanbase is completely wrong (mcdonagh).

You posted a pretty childish, petty, and snarky reply to a poster who happens to be one of the more level-headed and passive posters on here.

You might want to take a good look in the mirror before you talk about people "getting so worked up" and telling them to relax.

 

[AvatarAang]

I'm not saying that Foote is or isn't a better prospect, nor am I saying they did or did not prefer one to the other. Again, I don't speak in absolutes. I dont work for the organization. While I have connections, I don't have that inside information.



You continue to lump every fan in with a chose few, which is an ignorant approach. However, most of us (not all) thought that a 1st and two top prospects would be in the deal for McDonagh and not only that, but the majority of us had Howden as one of the prospects that would have been in there. So Hajek was in there instead of Foote. How is that "far off?" Hajek was still one of their top prospects, even the experts have said so.

Your agenda shows.



The first part of this is an assumption, at best. No one actually knows. Are you Jeff Gorton or Steve Yzerman?

As previously explained to you several times in this thread, the words of a chosen few do not speak for an entire fanbase. You can go back and play revisionist history and semantics, but the majority of Rangers fans didn't think either of them were realistic options, just players they wanted in return.



You posted a pretty childish, petty, and snarky reply to a poster who happens to be one of the more level-headed and passive posters on here.

You might want to take a good look in the mirror before you talk about people "getting so worked up" and telling them to relax.

Great logic, you don't need to be Gorton or Yzerman to know the difference in value between two players. Even if Gorton for some reason thought Names was better, that's just as bad considering it meant he's giving up Miller+ for him.

i'm sure there may have been a few ranger fans that were correct about mcdonagh's return. heck maybe even the ones in this thread were the ones that weren't far off.

i said the majority of ranger fans all claimed sergachev or foote++ would be coming back. if you go back to the threads leading up to the trade you will see this is a FACT. it's kinda sad that after MONTHS of hearing ranger fans say sergachev or foote are coming back, you try and pretend like that never happened. now it's just a select few people who said that....rightttttttttt.

anyways it's clear you few rangers fans will never admit when you're wrong, so feel free to continue to boast about being right about the grabner trade and pretend like the mcdonagh trade doesn't count because he wasn't the only piece involved.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Like you, I've been on these boards a LONG time. I remember plenty of trade requests for Hall in his first few years and I don't remember Oiler fans entertaining ANY of them until well after we had Ebs, Nuge, Hall and had just drafted another winger in Yak... and even then it was in exchange for an established or potential #1D not a quantity deal.

We did not entertain any trade until we got McDavid and even then the idea annoyed most

 

[One Winged Angel]

Great logic, you don't need to be Gorton or Yzerman to know the difference in value between two players. Even if Gorton for some reason thought Names was better, that's just as bad considering it meant he's giving up Miller+ for him.

You parading around your opinion and conjecture as fact does not make it fact, it's still an opinion.

No one here knows what the actual parameters were. You think you do, but in reality you don't, nor do I.

i'm sure there may have been a few ranger fans that were correct about mcdonagh's return. heck maybe even the ones in this thread were the ones that weren't far off.

We've already proven that the logical ones weren't far off. There are facts that support this.

i said the majority of ranger fans all claimed sergachev or foote++ would be coming back. if you go back to the threads leading up to the trade you will see this is a FACT. it's kinda sad that after MONTHS of hearing ranger fans say sergachev or foote are coming back, you try and pretend like that never happened. now it's just a select few people who said that....rightttttttttt.

That isn't fact, that's your opinion and it fits your narrative, so you'll exaggerate to fit whatever argument you think that you have. I don't try to pretend anything. I've acknowledged that there are people that were dead set on something. I don't get that way because I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. You mock me and say things like "great logic" when it is in fact, great logic. The difference between you and I is that you claim to know everything and you parade your opinion around on a message board as the word of god. I provide logical and reasonable explanations and don't paint everyone with a broad brush.

I don't know if you're fishing for a compliment or something, but you're not going to get it acting the way you are and certainly not from anyone on these forums, if your posting history serves as a benchmark.

anyways it's clear you few rangers fans will never admit when you're wrong, so feel free to continue to boast about being right about the grabner trade and pretend like the mcdonagh trade doesn't count because he wasn't the only piece involved.

There's nothing to admit to being "wrong about" when you're not arguing about right or wrong. You've missed the entire basis of my posts and quite frankly, it's sad that you have. I've been pretty clear on what I'm addressing and you choose to ignore it.

All we've done is said that this about what he would get. No one is boasting about being right, you're making this about being right because of some complex you have about being right or wrong.

Also, no one is saying that the McDonagh trade doesn't count, what I'm saying is that no one could have determined his value due to the fact that Miller was also involved in the same trade. You then go on to assume that Namestnikov and Miller is a straight swap without having any factual evidence of that being the case (no, your opinion is not fact, contrary to your belief). I then stated that there were three pieces involved in the package that most Ranger fans thought they would get for McDonagh (1st rounder, Howden, defense prospect, albeit a different one, still a top defense prospect). You then turn around and claim the vast overwhelming majority of Ranger fans were screaming things like "POINT/SERGACHEV OR BUST!!@#%$!@#$" in which I informed you is not accurate either, then you go on to say that I am pretending that it never happened, despite the fact that I've acknowledged the fact that there were in fact fans who said that, just not the overwhelming majority like you've claimed.

Your agenda is pretty clear. You're pretty worked up over there for no apparent reason, after telling others to "not get so worked up" and to "relax."

I think you should practice what you preach.

 

[TFHockey]

I dunno... how do you guys feel about 10 OA for Kreider and a 2nd on Draft Day?

I mean, he is a LW and would probably play on the 2nd line with Draisaitl centering. He has 2 years left at $4.6 Million. He is a good NHL 45-53 point forward. We aren't getting the RHD PMD we need but maybe that can be addressed in another trade? Something around Faulk?

Maybe this would help Edmonton make the playoffs. I dunno.

 

[TGWL]

Great logic, you don't need to be Gorton or Yzerman to know the difference in value between two players. Even if Gorton for some reason thought Names was better, that's just as bad considering it meant he's giving up Miller+ for him.

i'm sure there may have been a few ranger fans that were correct about mcdonagh's return. heck maybe even the ones in this thread were the ones that weren't far off.

i said the majority of ranger fans all claimed sergachev or foote++ would be coming back. if you go back to the threads leading up to the trade you will see this is a FACT. it's kinda sad that after MONTHS of hearing ranger fans say sergachev or foote are coming back, you try and pretend like that never happened. now it's just a select few people who said that....rightttttttttt.

anyways it's clear you few rangers fans will never admit when you're wrong, so feel free to continue to boast about being right about the grabner trade and pretend like the mcdonagh trade doesn't count because he wasn't the only piece involved.

Most of your point comes off like "we had the prospect wrong". I don't know what management thought about Foote vs Hajek. Who will be the better player? I have no idea. Foote has the draft pedigree. Hajek has the impressive quick development. Yeah, many of us (me included) who didn't include a roster player in the deal wanted the better drafted defensemen - their top prospect. The package, though, was pretty damn similar. In today's speed game, maybe it's for the best that we went with Hajek.

So, why do a lot of NYR fans feel hosed? Why do a lot of non-NYR fans think we got hosed? Because you're right - Miller > Namestnikov. How much was miller worth? According to rumors, beat writers and scouts, Miller be thrown in got us Hajek instead of a different prospect. Breaking it down, maybe it's a 1st round pick, Howden, conditional 2nd, plus different prospect for McDonagh. Namestnikov + better prospect for Miller. Or Maybe it was conditional 1st, better prospect plus Namestnikov for Miller. We don't know.

There were some outrageous trade for McDonagh, I won't argue that. But there were a lot of Ranger fans who weren't expecting Sergachev, and not because McDoangh wasn't worth that, but because it made no sense to Tampa.

Also, who the hell is keeping track on who was right and wrong about the trade? Like, you got the Grabner and Nash deal right, but you bombed out on McDonagh. Sorry, you're only 2/3....

 

[TGWL]

I dunno... how do you guys feel about 10 OA for Kreider and a 2nd on Draft Day?

I mean, he is a LW and would probably play on the 2nd line with Draisaitl centering. He has 2 years left at $4.6 Million. He is a good NHL 45-53 point forward. We aren't getting the RHD PMD we need but maybe that can be addressed in another trade? Something around Faulk?

Maybe this would help Edmonton make the playoffs. I dunno.

I'm not interested in moving Kreider for the 10th OV for a couple of reasons, and none of those reasons include him being a manimal with all the speed and power in the universe.

#1) We're getting a new coach. I'd rather see how he utilizes our offense. Does Kreider get less defense responsibilities to provide more offense? What I mean by that is does our next coach give him a little more rope on his leash?

#2) Chemistry with players. Before injuries, we had a pretty good line with Zibanejad, Kreider, and Buchnevich / Fast. I'd like to see how our next coach uses that line before we trade Kreider away. The 10th OV just doesn't add much for us at this point.

#3) Kreider lost some weight and gained a little more speed at the end of the season. I'm interested to see what shape Kreider comes into camp at.

 

[TFHockey]

I'm not interested in moving Kreider for the 10th OV for a couple of reasons, and none of those reasons include him being a manimal with all the speed and power in the universe.

#1) We're getting a new coach. I'd rather see how he utilizes our offense. Does Kreider get less defense responsibilities to provide more offense? What I mean by that is does our next coach give him a little more rope on his leash?

#2) Chemistry with players. Before injuries, we had a pretty good line with Zibanejad, Kreider, and Buchnevich / Fast. I'd like to see how our next coach uses that line before we trade Kreider away. The 10th OV just doesn't add much for us at this point.

#3) Kreider lost some weight and gained a little more speed at the end of the season. I'm interested to see what shape Kreider comes into camp at.

I get that. Fair enough. I might quibble a little bit with your assessment.

Kreider has seemed (to me at least) to be a player with a great toolbox of talent and skills but has never really put it all together. His best season was in 16-17. This last season was derailed a bit by his blood clot problem. It looks like he has put that behind him and I am glad to hear that. Still, blood clots are a condition that can be a life long issue. I'm not saying that is for certain in Kreider's case because I am not his doctor. As a fan it worries me a little. I keep thinking of Pascal Dupuis.

So from the outside looking in Kreider is a 40-53 point LW who may or may not have a medical condition that can derail his career.

You make some positive points (#1, #2 and #3). At 27 years old I think we know what Kreider is now. He might now be a perennial 50 point winger. He is more likely to remain a 40-53 point winger. Is the 10 OA not a good return for that kind of player? I think it is.

However if NYR fans are dead set against the trade I guess I can understand. I'd take Kreider on my team even with the question marks.

 

[TGWL]

I get that. Fair enough. I might quibble a little bit with your assessment.

Kreider has seemed (to me at least) to be a player with a great toolbox of talent and skills but has never really put it all together. His best season was in 16-17. This last season was derailed a bit by his blood clot problem. It looks like he has put that behind him and I am glad to hear that. Still, blood clots are a condition that can be a life long issue. I'm not saying that is for certain in Kreider's case because I am not his doctor. As a fan it worries me a little. I keep thinking of Pascal Dupuis.

So from the outside looking in Kreider is a 40-53 point LW who may or may not have a medical condition that can derail his career.

You make some positive points (#1, #2 and #3). At 27 years old I think we know what Kreider is now. He might now be a perennial 50 point winger. He is more likely to remain a 40-53 point winger. Is the 10 OA not a good return for that kind of player? I think it is.

However if NYR fans are dead set against the trade I guess I can understand. I'd take Kreider on my team even with the question marks.

That's fair as well. I don't think Kreider is going to break through and become this 70 point player for us, but chemistry does play an import part to team success, and if that top line can click, Rangers at least have something going for them next season. I just don't see the 10th OV being as good going forward. It will certainly take a couple of years to find out. I don't think the Rangers can afford to part with all their better players right now. If we go all out with prospects and they bomb, we're just taking a step backwards. If we're getting something that seems like a sure thing, as risky as it is, than I'm all for moving Kreider. It's not going to happen, but if we're talking top 5, I probably move Kreider.

 

[Shootertooter]

It is not unarguably clear if any of us is correct, but my point is that Pionk has value to Oil, but like other desirable RDs esp those on elc, availability is in short supply vs demand.

I agree with you here 100% and yet that seems to contradict what you say about being correct as it applies to you personally.

 

[Shootertooter]

That's what I thought McDonagh would return. One would think that the return wasn't that far off, considering that a 1st and Howden were in the deal. Maybe the Rangers preferred Hajek to Foote? I'm not sure, but the basis of what we thought would go for McDonagh was in fact apart of the deal, in a 1st round pick and 2 top prospects.

However, there is no basis to judge this deal and say X was the return for McDonagh and Y was the return for Miller, as it was all in one deal and not 2 seperate deals.

Don't forget the conditional pick in 2019.

 

[GregSirico]

Not a terrible offer, but we need wingers and offensive D-man right now. Maybe a pick and somebody ready to play would be better.

I said a while back the 30th overall + zucc is fair.

 

[GregSirico]

I dunno... how do you guys feel about 10 OA for Kreider and a 2nd on Draft Day?

I mean, he is a LW and would probably play on the 2nd line with Draisaitl centering. He has 2 years left at $4.6 Million. He is a good NHL 45-53 point forward. We aren't getting the RHD PMD we need but maybe that can be addressed in another trade? Something around Faulk?

Maybe this would help Edmonton make the playoffs. I dunno.

Kreider is worth more than that. I’d only move him for the 2nd overall.

 

[TFHockey]

Kreider is worth more than that. I’d only move him for the 2nd overall.

That is way too much. I can't see Carolina making that trade.

 

[GregSirico]

That is way too much. I can't see Carolina making that trade.

Neither can I. Which is fine.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I said a while back the 30th overall + zucc is fair.

It’s not though. The last thing we need are aging guys a year from free agency that will want a payday, if they’re even a little interested in staying which is no guarantee.

We need to have enough foresight to not panic over last year and keep the focus on a Cup run 2-3 years from now. McDavid and Drai are only 21 and 22 respectively, Zuccarello doesn’t do anything for us long term.

30th and JT miller would have been an offer strongly worth considering.

 

[voxel]

I said a while back the 30th overall + zucc is fair.

That’s not fair at all. You are valuing a rental Zucc at 13-16th overall. Sorry that’s Leafs fan JVR delusional.

 

[voxel]

30th and JT miller would have been an offer strongly worth considering.

Same. JT Miller would have fit with the Oilers very well. Zucc not so much.