Proposal: NYR-EDM: 25th + 30th Overall for 10th Overall

[bucks_oil]

I never said this was an officially agreed to deal.
I said when Hall was unknown in his first year into his second, that was a doable deal, as Oil was still building a team at that point and it was profitable for their fans to go there.
Slats backed the coach with the win now play of keeping the larger quantity of established value instead of gambling on a talented potential superstar.

With apologies, but I think you on a different planet.

Hall was the 1st #1OA that we had. He was meant as the savior that would bring us back to the promised land. From a PR perspective we were not trading him for LITERALLY ANYTHING in the NHL after his rookie season (as you suggest). He was NOT an unknown, he was already the face of the franchise and he came into the league (with Ebs) and lived up to the hype, scoring 42 points in 65 games (which we were reminded by media was BETTER than Stamkos and similar to Tavares) before being injured IN A FIGHT(! ) of all things. Those were rosy days filled with HOPE.

 

[bernmeister]

Would you take Matt Benning, Drake Caggiula/Ryan Strome, and a low first for 10th if you were in our shoes? Of course not, so stop trying to foist these kind of offers on us. Spooner in particular doesn’t have anywhere near the kind of value that you seem to think he does. He’s soft as butter and the exact Jeopardy response to the question ‘ if this player doesn’t put up points, why even have him in the lineup?’

Yes, I prefer our lesser pieces to your lesser pieces.
Oil isn't exactly bubbling over with depth, so whether or not Spooner is a + for you or not and at what price is a fair question.

My last comment was:
"I am leaning toward Pionk, Boston 25ish, and Spooner for 10OA + two 2nds [2019 + 2020], but I haven't decided yet."

in such context Spooner is more of a throw in than anything.
I'd still want 2 2nds added to Pionk for moving 25 to 10.

I believe there is a combo that works but we will have to bridge the obvious gaps we have on values of various assets.

 

[Shootertooter]

People generally want simple solutions to complicated problems.
Normally, reality does not oblige.
Complicated problems require complicated solutions to actually work, most of the time, with the hope that over time, edges can be smooth over and the comprehensive model, while still complex, can be partially simplified and reduced.

People who criticize me for speaking to truth ... let's be kind and not go there.

I have already said following the abortion of the 3 team Pitt VGK OTT deal, which had to be postponed for hours while reworked, that the next time some fool wants to criticize me for a deal 4-5 players on each side in an attempt to achieve max balance, they know what part of my anatomy they can kiss, and it got almost 40 likes.

If the shoe fits..

You confuse your opinion as fact and truth.
If you want to say Boo Nieves would be a quality player in another teams system if given a chance.......you might be right or wrong. That is a very general statement you seem to be attempting to get some type of credit for. I'm not sure he'll be even a regular 4th liner in NY. Is that truthful....my assessment? Sure, I spoke what I think is the truth, it does not mean it will be the reality though and that is where you often get confused.

How do you measure truth when it comes to what you propose? If your proposal does not actually become a reality, I'd be hard pressed to extract anything about it being "true". It may be creative or entertaining but it has no basis of truth or reality. So what you hang your hat on as truth seems to be very different than what others might.

Multiple player deals are very different from the structure of the deals you regularly propose. No deal ever includes 4 second rder's for 2 firsts or whatever and multiple players. Creativity does not equate to reality.

Provide link or post number to evidence one of your posts got almost 40 likes plz or I call B/S, based on the amount of posts you've made on this site and the disproportionate lack of likes. It surely is not one of your proposals.

 

[Shootertooter]

I'd probably push for Pionk and the 25th if I were Chia. Oil get their bright, young RHD without waiting the development pains, and can pick up a Noel or Woo as well.

Isn't Pionk exactly what the Rangers need moving forward? Young, cost controlled, decent skilled RHD.......I'd love the 10th OA but there is no guarantee that it develops into Pionk.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Yes, I prefer our lesser pieces to your lesser pieces.
Oil isn't exactly bubbling over with depth, so whether or not Spooner is a + for you or not and at what price is a fair question.

My last comment was:
"I am leaning toward Pionk, Boston 25ish, and Spooner for 10OA + two 2nds [2019 + 2020], but I haven't decided yet."

in such context Spooner is more of a throw in than anything.
I'd still want 2 2nds added to Pionk for moving 25 to 10.

I believe there is a combo that works but we will have to bridge the obvious gaps we have on values of various assets.

Not a chance is Pionk worth that much. Sorry. He had a nice run at the end of the season but you’re effectively valuing him at a mid-first and there’s just no justification for that outside of a 20 game stretch to end last season.

Imperfect comparison but that’s like us offering you Ty Rattie for Boston’s first.

 

[bernmeister]

With apologies, but I think you on a different planet.

Hall was the 1st #1OA that we had. He was meant as the savior that would bring us back to the promised land. From a PR perspective we were not trading him for LITERALLY ANYTHING in the NHL after his rookie season (as you suggest). He was NOT an unknown, he was already the face of the franchise and he came into the league (with Ebs) and lived up to the hype, scoring 42 points in 65 games (which we were reminded by media was BETTER than Stamkos and similar to Tavares) before being injured IN A FIGHT(! ) of all things. Those were rosy days filled with HOPE.

Lot of positive response when asked all those years ago.
Savior or not, there was recognition by many that that was good value add.

Thank you for acknowledging that I said this was only a narrow window his first year and MAYBE into his second.
I clearly said once he started proving he was full legit 1OA superstar, the overpayment in the deal was not enough.

Yes, he was not unknown in the sense he was a ballyhooed first overall.
But he was unproven and theoretically in play that first year-ish until his stock very quickly made him no longer available.

 

[bernmeister]

Isn't Pionk exactly what the Rangers need moving forward? Young, cost controlled, decent skilled RHD.......I'd love the 10th OA but there is no guarantee that it develops into Pionk.

Not a chance is Pionk worth that much. Sorry. He had a nice run at the end of the season but you’re effectively valuing him at a mid-first and there’s just no justification for that outside of a 20 game stretch to end last season.

Imperfect comparison but that’s like us offering you Ty Rattie for Boston’s first.

It is not unarguably clear if any of us is correct, but my point is that Pionk has value to Oil, but like other desirable RDs esp those on elc, availability is in short supply vs demand.

If Oil were willing to reasonably, moderately overpay for Pionk, I would consider it.

I think we can listen with an open mind if EDM steps up.
However, that does not seem the case yet.

til later.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

It is not unarguably clear if any of us is correct, but my point is that Pionk has value to Oil, but like other desirable RDs esp those on elc, availability is in short supply vs demand.

If Oil were willing to reasonably, moderately overpay for Pionk, I would consider it.

I think we can listen with an open mind if EDM steps up.
However, that does not seem the case yet.

til later.

Bern, the only trades you propose or consider are ‘if X steps up and overpays’. If Edmonton is going to overpay for anything it’s for a proven #1 defenceman, not kids that could have just been riding a heater.

 

[haveandare]

The Oilers took a big step back this season. They are one season removed from 102 points.

Do you think trading away the 10 oa for pending UFAs or spare parts to get depth is a good move for any organization?

If Edmonton deals with the NYR for the 10 OA bet on Kreider being asked for.

They're one season removed from the only season they've been competitive in how long? It's not as if they're always good and they just had an off year this time around.

I think trading a pick for an established player is a good idea for an organization that is flush with prospects and desperately short on realized talent. It's also a strategic move for a GM who squandered a generational players ELC completely and will need results next year to keep his job. Again, I'm not saying Zucc is the best idea or the best they could do with that pick but I think their particular situation lends itself to the idea of getting an established player instead of making yet another pick and hoping it turns the franchise around.

They can ask for whatever they want, but just like Zucc and a pick isn't going to work from your angle, Kreider isn't going to work from NYRs imo.

 

[haveandare]

I would do 10th OA for Kreider or Zucc 26th and 30th

I don't think "kreider or zucc" is reasonable - they have totally different values imo. Id do Zucc and a late first for 10, wouldn't do Kreider alone for that pick personally.

 

[Brock Radunske]

I know it's been a recent (and loud) trend on Hfboards lately about Rangers assets being worth much more than they actually are (McD/Zucc/Kreider) but those two 1sts aren't worth more than past picks at that spot so it comes down to a take it or leave it deal for the 15th pick.

 

[TGWL]

I don't think "kreider or zucc" is reasonable - they have totally different values imo. Id do Zucc and a late first for 10, wouldn't do Kreider alone for that pick personally.

I think it was meant as Kreider 1-1, or the package with Zucc, not that they were interchangeable.

 

[haveandare]

I think it was meant as Kreider 1-1, or the package with Zucc, not that they were interchangeable.

Ah, that makes more sense. Still personally wouldn't do Kreider for 10OA.

 

[haveandare]

I know it's been a recent (and loud) trend on Hfboards lately about Rangers assets being worth much more than they actually are (McD/Zucc/Kreider) but those two 1sts aren't worth more than past picks at that spot so it comes down to a take it or leave it deal for the 15th pick.

Nash got more than most NYR fans thought he would, Grabner got just about what NYR fans thought he would, McD deal is harder to judge because NYR fans were mostly talking about what they'd want for just him and the deal ultimately expanded beyond that.

There is no objective measure of what either Zucc or Kreider are worth, just NYR fans saying one thing and other fans saying another. You can't say with any authority that anyone thinks they're worth more than they are because we have no idea what they're exact worth is.

 

[bucks_oil]

Lot of positive response when asked all those years ago.
Savior or not, there was recognition by many that that was good value add.

Thank you for acknowledging that I said this was only a narrow window his first year and MAYBE into his second.
I clearly said once he started proving he was full legit 1OA superstar, the overpayment in the deal was not enough.

Yes, he was not unknown in the sense he was a ballyhooed first overall.
But he was unproven and theoretically in play that first year-ish until his stock very quickly made him no longer available.

Like you, I've been on these boards a LONG time. I remember plenty of trade requests for Hall in his first few years and I don't remember Oiler fans entertaining ANY of them until well after we had Ebs, Nuge, Hall and had just drafted another winger in Yak... and even then it was in exchange for an established or potential #1D not a quantity deal.

 

[AvatarAang]

Nash got more than most NYR fans thought he would, Grabner got just about what NYR fans thought he would, McD deal is harder to judge because NYR fans were mostly talking about what they'd want for just him and the deal ultimately expanded beyond that.

what a long, complicated way of saying NYR fans were completely wrong regarding McDonagh's return.

 

[Calad]

If we could have one trade thread without bern and chaoticorange going at eachother nonstop i would be sooooo happy

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Wondering how Oilers fans would feel about this. Rangers would like another top 10 pick to be able to bolster the farm with top prospects. Edmonton would be able to draft two players who could be solid, cost-controlled parts of McDavid's prime. Would two late firsts be enough for #10?

you normally move up in the draft 4-5 spots by including a pick in the next round and often you throw in something

you want a jump of 15 spots and are basically offering a pick that for all intents and purpose is equal to a second rounder

in fact the ability to draft between spot 25 and 35 probably doesn't have much statistical significance in being able to find players or not

if rangers wanted to trade up I would think one of these picks might be ok to be involved but the second asset would have to be much more of a sure thing... some already drafted kid near being able to play that the oilers liked might do it.

 

[One Winged Angel]

what a long, complicated way of saying NYR fans were completely wrong regarding McDonagh's return.

Or he could be saying exactly what he said and stating a fact in the process.

Considering that you ignored the other part of that post that conveyed that point to a further measure, I'll go with that.

 

[haveandare]

what a long, complicated way of saying NYR fans were completely wrong regarding McDonagh's return.

Or just relaying exactly what happened rather than trying to desperately shoehorn some generalization against a fanbase in.

NYR fans were generally asking for Foote, one of Howden/Raddysh, and a first for McDonagh. They got Hajek, Howden, a first, Namestnikov and another conditional first for McDonagh and Miller.

 

[AvatarAang]

Or he could be saying exactly what he said and stating a fact in the process.

Considering that you ignored the other part of that post that conveyed that point to a further measure, I'll go with that.

Lol no, he boasted about rangers getting at least what they expected in the nash/grabner deals, and then tried to make up some awful excuse when ranger fans were wrong.

The rangers got no where near what their fans thought they would. for months we read several posts, "stating a fact" that any deal for McDonagh starts with Sergachev, hell even Foote++.

 

[The S5]

what a long, complicated way of saying NYR fans were completely wrong regarding McDonagh's return.

And he will prove that the RAngers should have held onto him because that deal will look like a fleecing.

 

[The S5]

Or just relaying exactly what happened rather than trying to desperately shoehorn some generalization against a fanbase in.

NYR fans were generally asking for Foote, one of Howden/Raddysh, and a first for McDonagh. They got Hajek, Howden, a first, Namestnikov and another conditional first for McDonagh and Miller.

And their is no guarantee Foote outperforms Hajek in the NHL.

 

[TGWL]

Lol no, he boasted about rangers getting at least what they expected in the nash/grabner deals, and then tried to make up some awful excuse when ranger fans were wrong.

The rangers got no where near what their fans thought they would. for months we read several posts, "stating a fact" that any deal for McDonagh starts with Sergachev, hell even Foote++.

You're generalizing everybody together. Foote++ - So if the package was Foote, 1st, Howden, how much different would that have been than what the Rangers received? The problem was including Miller - what was Miller worth? How much did we really get for McDonagh vs what Miller's worth.

For months, we also read from fans who didn't included Sergachev or any roster player in what they wanted.

 

[haveandare]

And their is no guarantee Foote outperforms Hajek in the NHL.

A team admittedly rarely says they would have preferred a guy other than the one they got, but Gorton said they wanted Hajek specifically, had been scouting him since before he was drafted and wanted to pick him at the draft but didn't have a pick to do it.