Nyquist & Tatar

[Flowah]

Or maybe its not. I remember Tatar and Nyquist having these stretches under Babcock. He never dumped their minutes to single digits. Maybe that's why they're struggling (or maybe not, since everyone else on the roster is struggling to score too). He also never blocked a hardworking, big (relative to the rest of the team), fast forward's minutes despite putting up numbers (AA), and also didn't gift Z/D/A millions of minutes in their twilight years.

Not every player responds to a slump and cut minutes with rejuvenation. Whatever Blash is doing, it isn't really working, at least from an offensive numbers standpoint.

Both of their first years they were far more aggressive and physical on a very consistent basis. I was very excited for Tatar because of it. He never took a huge hit because he was shifty and fast enough but somehow he now seems to be terrified of contact and avoids it.

Since then, even under Babcock, they regressed a bit. I spoke about this already last season about Tatar. I was not happy with the way his game was headed.

 

[Bench]

Both of their first years they were far more aggressive and physical on a very consistent basis. I was very excited for Tatar because of it. He never took a huge hit because he was shifty and fast enough but somehow he now seems to be terrified of contact and avoids it.

Since then, even under Babcock, they regressed a bit. I spoke about this already last season about Tatar. I was not happy with the way his game was headed.

Do we think this may be a result of playing more minutes against better competition? Young players always have all the zip and physical vigor in their initial stints, only to be bit by the dreaded "sophomore slump" which I think is only a thing because the reality of top minute demands catches up with players.

We want a lot of effort every game, but it's impossible over 82 games to "give it" at 16+ minutes a night. Red Wings teams of old used to wax and wane their efforts noticeably depending on their place in the standings and how close the game was going. They were talented enough to turn it on only when they needed it and coast against the lower, budget teams. But with the NHL standings so clumped together and everybody fighting for a playoff spot, I'm not sure such luxuries are afforded.

This is completely tangential, but I'd be SOOOOO in favor of shortening the regular season.

 

[The Zermanator]

Maybe there's a silver lining in that Tatar has likely made his next contract cheaper (unless he has a monster year next season).

How much do people think he will cost to re-sign?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Do we think this may be a result of playing more minutes against better competition? Young players always have all the zip and physical vigor in their initial stints, only to be bit by the dreaded "sophomore slump" which I think is only a thing because the reality of top minute demands catches up with players.

We want a lot of effort every game, but it's impossible over 82 games to "give it" at 16+ minutes a night. Red Wings teams of old used to wax and wane their efforts noticeably depending on their place in the standings and how close the game was going. They were talented enough to turn it on only when they needed it and coast against the lower, budget teams. But with the NHL standings so clumped together and everybody fighting for a playoff spot, I'm not sure such luxuries are afforded.

This is completely tangential, but I'd be SOOOOO in favor of shortening the regular season.

Red Wings teams of 'old' were simply much more talented than the current outfit and as a result could reliably put away opponents even without max effort given. It's like at any job, some guys can show up on 2 hours of sleep feeling like crap and still be better than 80% of the office at their job. Why? They have the skill level and experience to navigate the challenges their work presents even when not at their best. The same applies to elite hockey players. We now just have a lot less of them than we used to.

 

[Reddwit]

Both of their first years they were far more aggressive and physical on a very consistent basis. I was very excited for Tatar because of it. He never took a huge hit because he was shifty and fast enough but somehow he now seems to be terrified of contact and avoids it.

Since then, even under Babcock, they regressed a bit. I spoke about this already last season about Tatar. I was not happy with the way his game was headed.

I'm not really arguing that Tatar and Nyquist were better then than they are now. They were better than they are now. All I'm arguing is that Tatar playing 9 minutes a game is downright stupid and Abdelkader playing 24 minutes - hard minutes - is also stupid.

The bigger take home is that everyone was better than they are now. I made a post about this a week ago or so, and at that time, the only people who had better numbers than last year were Quincey, Pulkkinen, and Smith, and even those numbers were so borderline that I wouldn't write home if 100% of the roster numbers were down from last year.

But really. 100%. See for yourself. We're trending for a full season where no one on the roster breaches 55 points.

At this point, what we know is that Abdelkader playing almost 19 minutes on average hasn't really yielded bigger dividends than Tatar/Gus playing 14 minutes a night.

Maybe there's a silver lining in that Tatar has likely made his next contract cheaper (unless he has a monster year next season).

How much do people think he will cost to re-sign?

He's almost guaranteed to get 20/20 this season - a season where all of his hometown fans hate him. If he does as good or anything better, he'll walk to free agency and get $4M, just like Hudler did.

 

[Ulysses31]

They have looked fine last 2 games~ both scored in outdoor game and both had an assist in last game~ also Tatar had a post and Nyquist drew the penalty that gave the wings the PP in OT last game

 

[Inspiration]

Not sure where to put this. Tomas Tatar is 10th in TOI per game among Wings' forwards (9th in ES TOI per game), down nearly 2 minutes from last year. He is essentially a 4th liner on this team. Nyquist's TOI is down from last year by a similar amount.

For all of the talk of Tatar and Nyquist's inability to offset the decline of Datsyuk and Zetterberg, how much of that is simply not being given a fair opportunity to do so? Both Tatar are Nyquist are actually averaging more even-strength points per 60 than they did last year (obviously PP numbers are down across the board).

 

[Z40]

It's hard to single out anyone on this team when pretty much everyone is underperforming (not including Larkin, AA, Mantha, or Mrazek). Our horrid PP is a major reason production is down amongst Tatar and Nyquist. It is essential we fix the PP next season. Hopefully, Mantha can help us and Larkin can improve in that area.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Tatar's production isn't bad. If he finished the season with 50 points i would be very happy.

Nyquist's production is definitely not acceptable. 45 points is a bad season and he probably won't even get to that. A lot of his drop in production has to do with the Wings abysmal PP, but the Wings need more even strength production from everyone in their lineup.

I viewed last season as their absolute ceilings in terms of point production. 48-52 points felt like their sweet spots.

Tatar should be traded. He has the most trade value. Still has one year left on a very cheap contract and will be an RFA at the end of it. A contending team would probably give up a late first round pick for him or a 2nd and a 3rd. Maybe use that + the Wings 1st round pick to move up into the 11th pick and hopefully get a top tier defenseman in the draft.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Not sure where to put this. Tomas Tatar is 10th in TOI per game among Wings' forwards (9th in ES TOI per game), down nearly 2 minutes from last year. He is essentially a 4th liner on this team. Nyquist's TOI is down from last year by a similar amount.

For all of the talk of Tatar and Nyquist's inability to offset the decline of Datsyuk and Zetterberg, how much of that is simply not being given a fair opportunity to do so? Both Tatar are Nyquist are actually averaging more even-strength points per 60 than they did last year (obviously PP numbers are down across the board).

As I said in the playoffs thread, he's 4th in scoring - level with Larkin and only 2 points back of Dats and Z.

I'm not suggesting he's been playing great, because hasn't. And the fact that our 2 superstars have only 45 points with the season nearly over, honestly, it blows my mind. I literally cannot get my head round it.

 

[odin1981]

As I said in the playoffs thread, he's 4th in scoring - level with Larkin and only 2 points back of Dats and Z.

I'm not suggesting he's been playing great, because hasn't. And the fact that our 2 superstars have only 45 points with the season nearly over, honestly, it blows my mind. I literally cannot get my head round it.

Its called age. It even happened to Stevie. Its just that team was loaded to the gills so he wasn't derided for it. D and Z have nothing to work with anymore by comparison.

 

[DanZ]

Its called age. It even happened to Stevie. Its just that team was loaded to the gills so he wasn't derided for it. D and Z have nothing to work with anymore by comparison.

If the Wings had Lidstrom and Rafalski on defense I guarantee D and Z would have much more than 40+ points right now. Datsyuk is still playing at a 62 point pace, same as Jonathan Toews. Injuries and our horrid defense are the biggest factors.

 

[KJoe88]

If the Wings had Lidstrom and Rafalski on defense I guarantee D and Z would have much more than 40+ points right now. Datsyuk is still playing at a 62 point pace, same as Jonathan Toews. Injuries and our horrid defense are the biggest factors.

This.

Everything stems from the defense.

Datsyuk is still a first liner and could fetch a 1st. Whether people agree with me or not is fine.

Tatar and Nyquist are suffering from sophomore slumps AND horrid defensive outlet passes and containment of the puck.

 

[Flowah]

Tatar's production isn't bad. If he finished the season with 50 points i would be very happy.

Nyquist's production is definitely not acceptable. 45 points is a bad season and he probably won't even get to that. A lot of his drop in production has to do with the Wings abysmal PP, but the Wings need more even strength production from everyone in their lineup.

I viewed last season as their absolute ceilings in terms of point production. 48-52 points felt like their sweet spots.

Tatar should be traded. He has the most trade value. Still has one year left on a very cheap contract and will be an RFA at the end of it. A contending team would probably give up a late first round pick for him or a 2nd and a 3rd. Maybe use that + the Wings 1st round pick to move up into the 11th pick and hopefully get a top tier defenseman in the draft.

I was on the Tatar train a couple years ago and wanted to trade Nyquist if we had to choose.

But it's interesting to see how people are still on that train while I've hopped off. Nyquist at least looks like he's trying most nights. And their production is so similar I just don't care who's got 3-4 more points.

Tatar's turnovers and lack of true physicality are really wearing out his welcome for me.

 

[PuckDynasty]

They played their best when Datsyuk and Zetterberg were out of the lineup. Whether it's the extra minutes or the increased responsibility or just a mental thing that they feel like they don't have to do more because those guys are the veterans and the leaders, I don't know. But there seems to be something. They don't lack talent and have shown the ability to perform. I agree that it's crazy these guys, including AA are getting so few minutes.

 

[ap3x]

Its Red Wings tradition to turn against forwards once they hit 25-26-27 range. It happened to Filpulla and Hudler, now its happening to Nyquist and Tatar. I expect the same thing will happen to Mantha and Athanasiou in 4-5 years

Harsh to call it a "Red Wings tradition". But I agree to that degree that Tats and Gus getting way too much hate right now. Legit to expect much more
from them though. I do as well. Admittedly, abysmal PP is having lots to do with it right now. But regardless of that they can do way better.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I was on the Tatar train a couple years ago and wanted to trade Nyquist if we had to choose.

But it's interesting to see how people are still on that train while I've hopped off. Nyquist at least looks like he's trying most nights. And their production is so similar I just don't care who's got 3-4 more points.

Tatar's turnovers and lack of true physicality are really wearing out his welcome for me.

I actually prefer Nyquist over Tatar, but Tatar is probably more appealing to most teams, based on the circumstances i mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

They played their best when Datsyuk and Zetterberg were out of the lineup. Whether it's the extra minutes or the increased responsibility or just a mental thing that they feel like they don't have to do more because those guys are the veterans and the leaders, I don't know. But there seems to be something. They don't lack talent and have shown the ability to perform. I agree that it's crazy these guys, including AA are getting so few minutes.

That first season in the line-up though, they were both playing not only to win a spot, but with a chip on their shoulder to show Holland/Babcock what they thought of being left out of the line-up.

Now they're established in the NHL. I agree, a lot of it is mental, they've "made it". They've found their comfort zone. As I said in another thread, I think this is the one area where Babcock might have made a difference.

It will be interesting to see how Tats performs next season in a contract year....

 

[Vladdy84]

I'd rather keep Tats. Think he has another level and more potential. Wouldn't be heartbroken if he got traded though. Nyquist.. Whatever. Really want him moved.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I was on the Tatar train a couple years ago and wanted to trade Nyquist if we had to choose.

But it's interesting to see how people are still on that train while I've hopped off. Nyquist at least looks like he's trying most nights. And their production is so similar I just don't care who's got 3-4 more points.

Tatar's turnovers and lack of true physicality are really wearing out his welcome for me.

A Nyquist supporter *****ing about Tatar's lack of true physicality???

Seriously, in what world does Nyquist look like he is "trying most nights?" His effort level this season has fallen off of a cliff. The motor that we once all loved is long gone. He is super slow to react and shows zero jump in his first three steps. We don't get to see much of steps four and five because he starts gliding in exhaustion after that third step. He has become the epitome of lazy in my book. There is nothing easier to defend in hockey than a small player that does not move his feet. Don't even get me started on his refusal to shoot the puck.

Tatar has his warts, but people will grow to miss him after he is traded.

 

[Frk It]

I'll hop on this hate-fest.

Nyquist was just like AA 2 years ago. Everytime he touched the puck you expected something exciting to happen. His acceleration/burst is not a threat anymore, somehow. Shot totals are way down for a number of reasons. Doesn't look to shoot enough, when he does they get blocked or miss the net.

Tatar was actually a way more responsible puckhandler under Babcock, which is a scary thought. Under Blashill he is completely reckless. Also seems like he is playing more selfish this year, I thought last year he created a lot more opportunities for linemates with his passing.

I still like both of these players a great deal. I think they can return to form, and even improve on what they were last year. I just hope that we can give them the minutes to do so next year, and improve our transition game as a team to spend less time in our zone every night.

 

[joe89]

At some point you just have to consider that they're having a bad season. Not falling off the cliff bad, but pretty damn mediocre. Since scoring is an issue overall on the team that reflects a bit on everyone's totals. I'd just like to see them bounce back next season, because they had two very good seasons before this.

 

[ap3x]

Some guys just need to relax and wait until our PP is back on track again. As legit as it is to expect much more from Gus, lots of stuff is just way too harsh
and only considering this season's sample size. And it's not as if he never tried either. That explosive guy u got to know won't come back anyway.

 

[Retire91]

I remember when these guys were breaking out the question on everyone's mind was if they were the kind of players that can take the torch passed by Dayts and Z. I don't want to see either of them traded I think they both have a future here but I don't think either player is the kind of player that you put the team on their back. If the team struggles they are going to struggle. Would like to see Larkin and Mantha groomed as those elite top line game breakers. With less responsibility and more complimentary speed and youth I think Nyquist and Tartar are great top 6 wingers as long as they are not expected to be world beaters.

 

[ap3x]

Amen. The expectation in regard to the role that they fill is the problem in the first place.
And looking at a season like that and 'em not going ahead helping that struggling team is what makes it look even worse.

Personally, I'd just wait to see how production changes as soon as PP is looking "normal" again.
That's not to say that u won't trade 'em away if the player coming the other way is worth it.
But lately some wishes to do so are mostly motivated by just hating on and not caring about 'em anymore.