Confirmed with Link: Nylander Re-signs (6 yrs x $6.9 AAV) Pt III

[Drytoast]

If he made the initial offer he's a bigger idiot.

Why would he be an idiot for setting up a starting point first?

 

[stickty111]

I beleive Dubas made that promise to Nylander that he is untouchable and therefore untradeable when he flew to Switzerland to meet him face to face over a month ago and early in the negotiations to reassure him he wasn't going to be the odd man out for cap reasons.

I suspect Dubas is getting played yet again now, because Lewis Gross has told Nylander to "say it loud and say it proud every chance he gets" that Kyle promised him he would not be traded while in charge.

Timing wise likely he made that promise well before the final 6 year $7.4 mil ($48 mil) deal was done, and a lot has changed #'s wise as Dubas was hoping for 6 X $6 mil with $6.5 mil the upper limit as being reported now, but Nylander to $1-1.5 mil more than Dubas hoped.

So by Nylander going public now, the whole world knows what Dubas promised him in private behind closed doors, and it forces Dubas hand to honour his word, which is a form of an informal NTC (no trade clause) for Willy now to ensure he gets to stay in Toronto..

That is a rookie GM mistake that has now cornered Dubas into keeping his word "my word is my bond" or Dubas's word is no longer good going forward and what he says can't be trusted if he should trade Nylander.

Nylander used the Dec 1st deadline as leverage to Dubas's " We can and We will sign and keep everyone" to get the contract he wanted and since his NTC is only for year #6 of his deal he has a verbal NTC for years 1-5 because once again Nylander is using Dubas words as leverage against him.

Dubas will soon learn to follow the Lou Lam GM example, don't talk about player contracts in public and don't make promises you might not be able to keep!!

Dubas was terrific. He didnt make the same mistakes as Nonis that gave every rumor to reporters.
"In Nonis we trust" with another error

 

[DanM]

No, because this stuff never gets released publicly.

Dubas did say, however, in his post-Nylander conference yesterday, that he's had talks with both camps already.

So my point was we don't 100% know that they are all about every cent possible?

That is all I am saying, we can assume, but we don't know.

 

[Nithoniniel]

How about "We haven't had the kind of young talent we have now during my lifetime, why would we want to trade it away? As long as I'm in charge here, we will be in the business of nurturing and developing young talent, not trading it away to help other teams. I fully expect that Nylander will be a Maple Leaf for the duration of his contract and hopefully for many years beyond. And frankly even if Willie asked to be traded, I would do everything that I could possibly think of to try to talk him out of it before accommodating his request".

You're good with words, I'm sure you could come with something even more convincing but I think that's not bad for a start. If Dubas says that, does Willie think "I'm done here anyway"?

That took me about 2 minutes. Seriously, this sentiment could have been conveyed hundreds of different ways without saying he will "never be traded as long as I'm the GM".

I just mostly don't think it matters much if he says something that will with something like 98% certainty be true. I understand why you think it was dumb, and I don't begrudge you that opinion. I just personally feel differently. To me, it's a powerful message of an intent that I agree with.

 

[DueDiligence]

Or Dubas may sign both Marner and Matty for reasonable costs, and nobody needs to be moved.

I always laugh when posters dismiss the idea that both may sign reasonable contracts. In fact, the chances of this happening, is as high as them cashing in for every cent. As none of us actually know what will happen either way.

You know there is huge pressure from the NHLPA not to leave money on the table. They are very happy with Nylander right now.

 

[Shanty]

How about "We haven't had the kind of young talent we have now during my lifetime, why would we want to trade it away? As long as I'm in charge here, we will be in the business of nurturing and developing young talent, not trading it away to help other teams. I fully expect that Nylander will be a Maple Leaf for the duration of his contract and hopefully for many years beyond. And frankly even if Willie asked to be traded, I would do everything that I could possibly think of to try to talk him out of it before accommodating his request".

You're good with words, I'm sure you could come with something even more convincing but I think that's not bad for a start. If Dubas says that, does Willie think "I'm done here anyway"?

That took me about 2 minutes. Seriously, this sentiment could have been conveyed hundreds of different ways without saying he will "never be traded as long as I'm the GM".

Again though, you're taking Dubas' words at face value. He's conveying a message which, regardless of what he actually says, is going to be repeated in the media for weeks, months, etc. Sometimes it's easier to make a more direct claim at the time, so the media can't misconstrue the message as much.

If something happens down the road, and Willy is traded, then Dubas can simply change the message again at the time. If there's anything we should take from Lou's tenure here, it's that the cone of silence was passed down.

 

[ACC1224]

Is anyone else really happy that a lot of these "Media Experts" got exposed like Kyper and Freidman during this Nylander saga? I think there has been a passing of the guard and I am really impressed with Marc Savard and Chris Johnston for accurate reporting without rumor mongering.

No, I'm sure most are like me and couldn't care less.

 

[DanM]

You know there is huge pressure from the NHLPA not to leave money on the table. They are very happy with Nylander right now.

Yes of course, I understand business. I am sure they want to see both players paid well, but they also can't make players sign what they seem fair.

Look at Kuch over in Tampa, if it were up to the league, he would be getting 12m per year. You can't even say taxes, because I am sure the league (Gary mostly) who is all about parity, would be touting any kind of advantage as a good thing.

Willy would have been a clear win at 8, he will easily be a bargain at 6.9. This kid will be an 80point player (if not more) as he gets older and into his prime. Add in the cap increases going forward, and the structure of the contract, it will not be a huge win.

I give Willy props for standing his ground though, it would take some big balls.

 

[Drytoast]

You know there is huge pressure from the NHLPA not to leave money on the table. They are very happy with Nylander right now.

The Leafs are always gonna spend to the cap wall. Willie didn't "gain" any money. The cap didn't go up because of his deal.

 

[RLF]

I imagine some folks here will, but I won't be taking those people very seriously.

Dubas had also publicly stated that, as long as he's here, he sees Willy as part of the core, with no intention of shipping him out. I expect him to keep his word, and I expect him to be able to do so without controversy, so long as he and the Leafs continue on their current trajectory. If things change, especially things outside of Dubas' control, then things change. For now, we have one of our 3 RFAs locked up long-term, and a pretty good cap situation after 2019/20. I'm not scared, and I don't think Nylander or Dubas are, either. If the cap drops 50%, and the Leafs suddenly have to choose 2 of Matthews, Marner and Nylander, then I expect them to make a sacrifice that couldn't have possibly been expected at the time that Dubas made his statement.

Unfortunately for Willy, unless there's an NTC/NMC built into his contract, no word given to him by his boss gives him actual power or leverage. Does Dubas lose leverage with other parties if he ends up trading Nylander at some point? I think we'd have to see why he traded him before we could determine that.

He couldn't get a NTC/NMC, so Dubas word is all he has. If he had a NMC/NTC, he would also legally have say on where he is moved or if at all.

There is a difference between saying " I have no intention of" and "As long as I am GM, you won't be traded." There is a reason you don't hear GM's say this.
In fairness to Dubas, he did not bring it to the public, Willy did. Things may change for sure, but he stated "as long as he is GM". This is a "no matter what happens" statement-not a "well, I had no intention, but things changed". I puts some power to the player, especially since Nylander made it public and I think it was done on purpose to make sure there will be a media circus if he is moved this summer and Dubas will be called out.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I just mostly don't think it matters much if he says something that will with something like 98% certainty be true. I understand why you think it was dumb, and I don't begrudge you that opinion. I just personally feel differently. To me, it's a powerful message of an intent that I agree with.

And to me it was a false promise that everyone seems to agree he won't necessarily be able to keep. IMO Dubas lost just a little bit of credibility with this false promise and that's never a good thing.

Most importantly, the fact that he made this promise shouldn't factor into his thinking going forward, and I really hope it doesn't. He's only human though and I can't help but think this could cross his mind at some point if even in a small way - "I'm really tempted to make this trade but I'll look bad and the media won't leave me alone if I do".

 

[Gary Nylund]

Again though, you're taking Dubas' words at face value. He's conveying a message which, regardless of what he actually says, is going to be repeated in the media for weeks, months, etc. Sometimes it's easier to make a more direct claim at the time, so the media can't misconstrue the message as much.

If something happens down the road, and Willy is traded, then Dubas can simply change the message again at the time. If there's anything we should take from Lou's tenure here, it's that the cone of silence was passed down.

He's the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs and as such, everyone should be able to take his words at face value. In many ways, he's the face of the franchise and what he says counts, or at least it's supposed to count.

 

[IBeL34f]

He couldn't get a NTC/NMC, so Dubas word is all he has. If he had a NMC/NTC, he would also legally have say on where he is moved or if at all.

There is a difference between saying " I have no intention of" and "As long as I am GM, you won't be traded." There is a reason you don't hear GM's say this.
In fairness to Dubas, he did not bring it to the public, Willy did. Things may change for sure, but he stated "as long as he is GM". This is a "no matter what happens" statement-not a "well, I had no intention, but things changed". I puts some power to the player, especially since Nylander made it public and I think it was done on purpose to make sure there will be a media circus if he is moved this summer and Dubas will be called out.

Hell, I personally will call out Dubas if Nylander is moved in the off-season. There's absolutely no reason for that, and that's probably exactly the kind of thing Dubas is trying to assure Nylander isn't going to happen.

I allow room for unpredictable circumstances that are out of a person's control to change that person's plans without necessarily holding that person accountable for the effects of those changes. If Nylander gets traded for no reason, I will have my own questions and concerns. If Nylander is traded for "legitimate" reasons (whatever those may be), years down the road, because of something that could not possibly have been foreseen, then Dubas will have my forgiveness for his comments.

At the very least, I'm gonna wait until Nylander's actually traded (and to see the circumstances of that trade) before I freak out about what Dubas said in the summer of 2018 to convince a player that they're a part of our plans moving forward.

Dubas' word is not an NTC/NMC, it is an intention. It's not legally binding, and context will be required, in my opinion, to determine if any failure to keep his word deserves to be held against him. I'm glad he identified this player as a core member of our team, I'm glad he has no interest in shipping young, core players away from this team when there's no need to do so, and I'm glad he tried to erase any insecurities this player may have had regarding those points. I don't view this as a verbal NTC, I view it as a commitment to keep talented, young players in Toronto for as long as possible.

People in the media and fanbase have been talking about shipping Nylander out for cap purposes, balanced-roster purposes, and even personality/style purposes, and he's apparently become nervous that there's a chance he actually could get traded from this team for those reasons - Dubas wanted to squash those notions, as they are ridiculous. He's not in the business of stripping his team of high-end talent for no reason, and so he said he's not going to trade one of his high-end talented young players. Really shouldn't be this big a deal.

 

[BayStreetBully]

And to me it was a false promise that everyone seems to agree he won't necessarily be able to keep. IMO Dubas lost just a little bit of credibility with this false promise and that's never a good thing.

Most importantly, the fact that he made this promise shouldn't factor into his thinking going forward, and I really hope it doesn't. He's only human though and I can't help but think this could cross his mind at some point if even in a small way - "I'm really tempted to make this trade but I'll look bad and the media won't leave me alone if I do".

I haven’t been following, but is it possible Nylander didn’t quote it the right way when he said “Dubas said he’ll never trade me”? I wonder if what Dubas really said was “we don’t have any current plans on trading you, and we can’t see a scenario right now where we would”. Nylander isn’t a lawyer or a manager, I could see how he’d quote it wrong to the media, while not realizing what the big deal is about paraphrasing.

Also, I hope that Dubas being such a “GM of the players” has earned him some goodwill when he’ll have to deal with Matthews and Marner. I think Dubas has been very accommodating with Nylander, that I can only hope Dubas is hoping this pays off in future negotiations. If we get Matthews and Marner to team friendly deals as a result of Dubas trying to build trust with the players, then all is well. (Me personally, I would’ve punished Nylander, but then again Dubas is a better man than me)

 

[Gary Nylund]

I haven’t been following, but is it possible Nylander didn’t quote it the right way when he said “Dubas said he’ll never trade me”? I wonder if what Dubas really said was “we don’t have any current plans on trading you, and we can’t see a scenario right now where we would”. Nylander isn’t a lawyer or a manager, I could see how he’d quote it wrong to the media, while not realizing what the big deal is about paraphrasing.

Also, I hope that Dubas being such a “GM of the players” has earned him some goodwill when he’ll have to deal with Matthews and Marner. I think Dubas has been very accommodating with Nylander, that I can only hope Dubas is hoping this pays off in future negotiations. If we get Matthews and Marner to team friendly deals as a result of Dubas trying to build trust with the players, then all is well. (Me personally, I would’ve punished Nylander, but then again Dubas is a better man than me)

I don't even know what Nylander said, I heard what Dubas said loud and clear though. I can't give you the entire quote word for word but it contained almost exactly this - as long as I'm the GM, William Nylander will never be traded.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I don't even know what Nylander said, I heard what Dubas said loud and clear though. I can't give you the entire quote word for word but it contained almost exactly this - as long as I'm the GM, William Nylander will never be traded.

If that’s the case, I can only hope he’s trying to build goodwill with the young players in hopes it pays off with Matthews/Marner negotiations.

Because I agree, the GM shouldn’t be saying that unless he’s got some greater strategy for doing so that benefits the team.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You know there is huge pressure from the NHLPA not to leave money on the table. They are very happy with Nylander right now.

What difference does it make to the nhlpa? The leafs are going to be RIGHT at the cap next year no matter what. The money Nylander got above market value was taken from his teammates pockets. Not mlse.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Dubas knows that there’s wide speculation on Nylander getting traded after signing this deal. Much like how there’s been lots of talk about the cap concerns, signing the big 3, and the possible need of having to move one for cap space.

These bold statements are intended to appease the mass media in attempt to limit the speculation, rumour mongering, and potential short term dressing room disruption that might occur from said speculation/rumours.

I really don’t see the need to overanalyzs it. No one should be surprised if Nylander is traded in the summer.

 

[Nithoniniel]

And to me it was a false promise that everyone seems to agree he won't necessarily be able to keep. IMO Dubas lost just a little bit of credibility with this false promise and that's never a good thing.

I don't understand how you arrive at that conclusion. He has absolute control over whether or not Nylander gets traded. Nothing stops him from keeping the promise.

 

[thewave]

What difference does it make to the nhlpa? The leafs are going to be RIGHT at the cap next year no matter what. The money Nylander got above market value was taken from his teammates pockets. Not mlse.

You're right. It was taken from his teammates. The thing is they can use his case to demand more or trade. It's why not overpaying was very important. He just told all agents he is weak and will cave even if he doesn't have to.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

He couldn't get a NTC/NMC, so Dubas word is all he has. If he had a NMC/NTC, he would also legally have say on where he is moved or if at all.

There is a difference between saying " I have no intention of" and "As long as I am GM, you won't be traded." There is a reason you don't hear GM's say this.
In fairness to Dubas, he did not bring it to the public, Willy did. Things may change for sure, but he stated "as long as he is GM". This is a "no matter what happens" statement-not a "well, I had no intention, but things changed". I puts some power to the player, especially since Nylander made it public and I think it was done on purpose to make sure there will be a media circus if he is moved this summer and Dubas will be called out.

I agree with this.

It’s very strange for Dubas to give his word like that. What happens if our D is majorly exposed in the playoffs and we can’t out score our problems? What happens if Nylander is a complete ghost in the playoffs again? What happens if Nylander actually has peaked as a 20 goal/60 point player? What happens if, despite his best efforts, Dubas can’t get Matthews and Marner signed under the cap?

He looked directly at the cameras and said that he gave his word to Nylander that he wouldn’t be traded as long as he is gm. Just seems like a rookie mistake.

And the narrative last month was that Nylander couldn’t take Dubas at his word that he wouldn’t be traded, so he was holding out on a contract that is hard to trade. So why did he sign a contract structured as the most tradable contract I’ve ever seen?

 

[IBeL34f]

For the record, this is exactly what Dubas has said on the matter, going back to before the start of the season:

That’s been our focus. I know that the opposite has sort of been written quite a bit. Our major focus has been on longer term. He’s a player that we see as being a fit with our team for the long-term future. The whole time I’m here until they kick me out one day, William is a part of the group. That’s been our focus. There are varying different terms we can go to from one to eight years, but we see William as a long-term piece of our core here. He’s a good young player and we hope in the days and weeks to come we can get this sorted out and he’ll be back with the Maple Leafs.

As long as Dubas is the GM he sees Nylander as a core part of our group, and that's where his focus has been.

Personally, I have no issue with our GM issuing that quote about one of our top young players, especially if that player had heard a little too much of the media's garbage about our situation moving forward and had undue concerns about their place in our plans.

 

[Buds17]

And to me it was a false promise that everyone seems to agree he won't necessarily be able to keep. IMO Dubas lost just a little bit of credibility with this false promise and that's never a good thing.

Most importantly, the fact that he made this promise shouldn't factor into his thinking going forward, and I really hope it doesn't. He's only human though and I can't help but think this could cross his mind at some point if even in a small way - "I'm really tempted to make this trade but I'll look bad and the media won't leave me alone if I do".

I like to believe we have a forward thinking management group. I'd hope they have a plan on which move(s) to make in the event of a cap crunch. I might very well be wrong, but I can't imagine Nylander would be too close to the front of that line after signing him for as long as they did. I'll grant that a duration of six seasons can be a long time. I'd guess Dubas knows for sure though how smooth or contentious this negotiation went and how close of a possibility a trade ever was during all of it.

 

[FalcorMulch]

He couldn't get a NTC/NMC, so Dubas word is all he has. If he had a NMC/NTC, he would also legally have say on where he is moved or if at all.

There is a difference between saying " I have no intention of" and "As long as I am GM, you won't be traded." There is a reason you don't hear GM's say this.
In fairness to Dubas, he did not bring it to the public, Willy did. Things may change for sure, but he stated "as long as he is GM". This is a "no matter what happens" statement-not a "well, I had no intention, but things changed". I puts some power to the player, especially since Nylander made it public and I think it was done on purpose to make sure there will be a media circus if he is moved this summer and Dubas will be called out.

There's already a media circus regardless of what he says so I don't really think he's too worried about being careful with his words. I'm sure Nylander understands that it's not a legally binding statement and what's being implied is that they have no intention of trading him. The subtext is "you're a part of our core group, you're in our long-term plans."

To me this is the GM standing behind his player. Dubas understands that fans are probably a bit annoyed with Nylander right now, and he understands that the media is just making it worse. Dubas is nipping all that in the bud so that everyone can move on and focus on the actual hockey.

 

[Mess]

Dubas knows that there’s wide speculation on Nylander getting traded after signing this deal. Much like how there’s been lots of talk about the cap concerns, signing the big 3, and the possible need of having to move one for cap space.

These bold statements are intended to appease the mass media in attempt to limit the speculation, rumour mongering, and potential short term dressing room disruption that might occur from said speculation/rumours.

I really don’t see the need to overanalyzs it. No one should be surprised if Nylander is traded in the summer.

I don't know Bert. that would be tough for Dubas to reconcile.

Quelling media speculation and internal distraction certainly a benefit of Dubas saying "As long as I'm GM Nylander will not be traded" ..

However if that was simply lip service to Nylander and the media and Dubas trades Willy in 5 months time than he will have lost all accountability for his words and who would ever believe a word he says again if he was found simply doing it for posturing and never meant to honour that?.

Fans, media, player agents and even players, nobody would place any truth in what he says thereafter. His reputation would be one of simply saying what people want to hear and placing no value one could rely on going forward as truthful.