Proposal: Nylander for Lindholm

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Not one person should argue against this statement. If we could trade for/sign a very good (not superstar) D first partner for Rielly...then i think you would truly see what the kid is made of. He has been dragging sub-par partners around for his whole career. Hell, we got to see him improve a bunch just by having Hainsey partner with him....imagine if we got an actual #2/3 D first guy.

Ya I don't have anything against rielly..I like him that's who I wanted @ that draft... but they def needed to either wait on promoting him, or go find him a partner that could make his transition comfortably. And it would be interesting to see how he'd looke with a guy like Manson aside him(I always wondered if nurse would be a good fit for him)… just like itll be interesting to see if Lindholm ever gets a long look next to Montour, as his offensive #'s should increase pretty significantly in that scenario.

 

[BAM]

Where did I compare manson to Rielly? You compared them based on age... all I said is Manson has been good in the NHL since he came up... rielly struggled... it was good development on anaheims part.. to take their time and let manson become the player he is today. Lindholm came in and instantly was a dominant defensive player, rielly should have spent more time in development before being tossed into deep water... hes coming around now and starting to live up to his potential(also took a very top notch offense for him to hit his stride).

The year the Leafs finished dead last he scored 36 points when the teams highest scorer was Kadri with 45, that's pretty crazy tbh considering how offensively challenged the forwards were for him to still put up 36 points. Babcock also kept him away from the pp for the first few years he was coach so that he could focus more on his defensive game. It was this year where Rielly really established himself along with Gardiner as the main pp QB's

 

[imjustzach]

Theres's a 3 year age gap between the two. It's not Rielly's fault that he was thrown into the NHL earlier than Manson

Okay? Nobody is denying that theres an age gap. All I said was that Rielly has more pro experience than Manson despite being younger. Not sure why you're getting defensive.

Not one person should argue against this statement. If we could trade for/sign a very good (not superstar) D first partner for Rielly...then i think you would truly see what the kid is made of. He has been dragging sub-par partners around for his whole career. Hell, we got to see him improve a bunch just by having Hainsey partner with him....imagine if we got an actual #2/3 D first guy.

Agreed. Rielly has some sick offensive potential. He needs a Manson-esque partner who can hold down the blueline and give him more freedom to use that talent.

 

[LGB51]

Leafs offer Nylander.

Oilers offer Larsson.

 

[Liferleafer]

Leafs offer Nylander.

Oilers offer Larsson.

Larsson is the type of D the Leafs could use...but unfortunately, he comes with the stigma attached of being traded for Hall. I wouldn't move Nylander for him, and the futures type package i would offer wouldn't work for the win now Oilers. I would like to swoop in and grab Klefbom however...

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Leafs offer Nylander.

Oilers offer Larsson.

Interesting with an element of irony.

 

[Atomos2]

Other fans really need to stop letting certain leaf fans get to them. It's obvious they're either 12 or have no idea what they're talking about. No reason to get rattled and derail the thread.

Lindholm is obviously worth more than Nylander.

As for the whole Rielly vs. Lindholm debate, Lindholm is the better d-men, but people seriously underrate Rielly.

That's debatable. The first one you said is correct though.

 

[ottomaddox]

How the hell can a player be a 1C when he’s never shown he can play that at the NHL level?

I like this. I agree. He's not a Center. He's not even a 2C. He's a talented winger though.

 

[AuraSphere]

That's debatable. The first one you said is correct though.

Yep, I'll agree, it is debatable for sure, they're really not as far off as other fan bases think. I just personally think Lindholm is more complete.

 

[analytics]

That's debatable. The first one you said is correct though.

Debate it then?

Lindholm has 27.3 points/82 in even strength situations, Rielly has 29.1 points/82. Considering Lindholm has twice as many goals, it easily follows that he had better offensive production 5on5 on a team more difficult to produce offense.

It easily follows that he's leaps better defensively, arguably as far as top-5 in the sport.

Just because Anaheim has Fowler and Montour ahead of him and an overall bad powerplay from the Forwards, doesn't make the offensive gap wider than it truly is.

Put it this way: If Lindholm had 37 points/82 on Anaheim, he would have scored ~45 points playing on Toronto last season with absolute certainty, at which point the "debate" isn't a debate anymore.

 

[duckpuck]

Debate it then?

Lindholm has 27.3 points/82 in even strength situations, Rielly has 29.1 points/82. Considering Lindholm has twice as many goals, it easily follows that he had better offensive production 5on5 on a team more difficult to produce offense.

It easily follows that he's leaps better defensively, arguably as far as top-5 in the sport.

Just because Anaheim has Fowler and Montour ahead of him and an overall bad powerplay from the Forwards, doesn't make the offensive gap wider than it truly is.

Put it this way: If Lindholm had 37 points/82 on Anaheim, he would have scored ~45 points playing on Toronto last season with absolute certainty, at which point the "debate" isn't a debate anymore.

I'm not going to play math games, but I think the larger point is that if Lindholm were given a different role (more similar to Reilly's), his offensive numbers would be similar to Reilly's. Not only was the Duck's power play awful, but the PP minutes Lindholm received were almost always on the second team PP (in part because Getzlaf plays the point).

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Debate it then?

Lindholm has 27.3 points/82 in even strength situations, Rielly has 29.1 points/82. Considering Lindholm has twice as many goals, it easily follows that he had better offensive production 5on5 on a team more difficult to produce offense.

It easily follows that he's leaps better defensively, arguably as far as top-5 in the sport.

Just because Anaheim has Fowler and Montour ahead of him and an overall bad powerplay from the Forwards, doesn't make the offensive gap wider than it truly is.

Put it this way: If Lindholm had 37 points/82 on Anaheim, he would have scored ~45 points playing on Toronto last season with absolute certainty, at which point the "debate" isn't a debate anymore.

That's 1 thing people don't account for... Toronto is a very good offensive team(specially up front), and they play a system that allows them to put up more goals. Obviously there isn't an exact way to see how Lindholm would do in Toronto without him actually going there, but I imagine Lindholm will be scoring a bit more then he would in Anaheim... that plays a more heavy/grinding game and more defensive first oriented.

Then you take into consideration Lindholm rarely plays on the top powerplay unit(mostly 2nd unit), on a team that had a pretty iffy powerplay... and you can see why 37/82 is pretty solid #'s for a guy on that style team + known for the style of play he is.

The goals are another interesting point... you give Lindholm the type of forwards rielly has + pp time with the top unit and I imagine hell up his point total by a decent margin... he scores a lot of goals for a guy that is more known as a shutdown dmen, 15g/82 game is pretty impressive offensive production for a dmen. He has shown flashes of offense... and I do think hell break 40 points this year... and with a new coach I could see him pushing the 45-50 range. Hes not bad offensively despite what people think... hes just focused defensively

 

[Atomos2]

Debate it then?

Lindholm has 27.3 points/82 in even strength situations, Rielly has 29.1 points/82. Considering Lindholm has twice as many goals, it easily follows that he had better offensive production 5on5 on a team more difficult to produce offense.

It easily follows that he's leaps better defensively, arguably as far as top-5 in the sport.

Just because Anaheim has Fowler and Montour ahead of him and an overall bad powerplay from the Forwards, doesn't make the offensive gap wider than it truly is.

Put it this way: If Lindholm had 37 points/82 on Anaheim, he would have scored ~45 points playing on Toronto last season with absolute certainty, at which point the "debate" isn't a debate anymore.

Rielly’s career high is 50pts and he did so in usage more difficult than Lindholm. If you want to equate his point totals to the team he’s on then go ahead. But it is what it is and the facts are, only two other players had faced as difficult usage as Rielly and managed 50+ points last season. Doughty and Hedman iirc.

You’re certainty that Lindholm can produce as much as Rielly in Toronto is nothing but mere speculation with absolutely nothing concrete backing it up other than hypothetical situations based on hopeful best outcomes.

I’d take Rielly over Lindholm on the Leafs as he suits their transition game much better and can provide “proven” number 1 dman offensive production. Although I’d love Lindholm as his partner. That’d be awesome.

 

[Static]

Rielly’s career high is 50pts and he did so in usage more difficult than Lindholm. If you want to equate his point totals to the team he’s on then go ahead. But it is what it is and the facts are, only two other players had faced as difficult usage as Rielly and managed 50+ points last season. Doughty and Hedman iirc.

You’re certainty that Lindholm can produce as much as Rielly in Toronto is nothing but mere speculation with absolutely nothing concrete backing it up other than hypothetical situations based on hopeful best outcomes.

I’d take Rielly over Lindholm on the Leafs as he suits their transition game much better and can provide “proven” number 1 dman offensive production. Although I’d love Lindholm as his partner. That’d be awesome.

This stuff is so slanted. Rielly had 19 more points than hampus last year, not a small amount.

He also had three times as many secondary assists as lindholm, primarily on the PP, and half as many goals.

 

[Atomos2]

This stuff is so slanted. Rielly had 19 more points than hampus last year, not a small amount.

He also had three times as many secondary assists as lindholm, primarily on the PP, and half as many goals.

Here is one of those crappy secondary assists that players don’t have to spend any energy in getting.

 

[Static]

Here is one of those crappy secondary assists that players don’t have to spend any energy in getting.

And?

 

[Atomos2]

And?

Nothing. Just giving you more ammo to complain about. Damn those secondary assists. What are we gonna do about em eh?

 

[Static]

Nothing. Just giving you more ammo to complain about. Damn those secondary assists. What are we gonna do about em eh?

Who is complaining? All I did was point out a fallacy of box-score scouting. It's lazy.

 

[Critical13]

 

[Ziggdiezan]

That's 1 thing people don't account for... Toronto is a very good offensive team(specially up front), and they play a system that allows them to put up more goals. Obviously there isn't an exact way to see how Lindholm would do in Toronto without him actually going there, but I imagine Lindholm will be scoring a bit more then he would in Anaheim... that plays a more heavy/grinding game and more defensive first oriented.

Then you take into consideration Lindholm rarely plays on the top powerplay unit(mostly 2nd unit), on a team that had a pretty iffy powerplay... and you can see why 37/82 is pretty solid #'s for a guy on that style team + known for the style of play he is.

The goals are another interesting point... you give Lindholm the type of forwards rielly has + pp time with the top unit and I imagine hell up his point total by a decent margin... he scores a lot of goals for a guy that is more known as a shutdown dmen, 15g/82 game is pretty impressive offensive production for a dmen. He has shown flashes of offense... and I do think hell break 40 points this year... and with a new coach I could see him pushing the 45-50 range. Hes not bad offensively despite what people think... hes just focused defensively

If we assume that Lindholm would be better offensively on a better offensive team don't we also have to assume that he would be worse defensively in Toronto? Or that Rielly would be much better defensively playing in Anaheim. I agree he could be better offensively in Toronto but it is not a guaranteed fact at all. Especially as he wouldn't see any PP time.

As for the whole goals vs assists thing, the Leafs defenders are asked to shoot for tips all the time, almost to a fault. Would explain why all the Leafs defenders have had low goal totals the last two years.

I hear about every Toronto player other than Matthews that they only put up so many points because they play for Toronto. Oddly enough I don't hear the same thing about Tampa or Jets players. However maybe just maybe Toronto puts up so many goals because they have highly skilled offensive defenders like Rielly, maybe he is actually driving the play not being a passenger and the Leafs high goal total is a result of his play not in spite of it.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

If we assume that Lindholm would be better offensively on a better offensive team don't we also have to assume that he would be worse defensively in Toronto? Or that Rielly would be much better defensively playing in Anaheim. I agree he could be better offensively in Toronto but it is not a guaranteed fact at all. Especially as he wouldn't see any PP time.

As for the whole goals vs assists thing, the Leafs defenders are asked to shoot for tips all the time, almost to a fault. Would explain why all the Leafs defenders have had low goal totals the last two years.

I hear about every Toronto player other than Matthews that they only put up so many points because they play for Toronto. Oddly enough I don't hear the same thing about Tampa or Jets players. However maybe just maybe Toronto puts up so many goals because they have highly skilled offensive defenders like Rielly, maybe he is actually driving the play not being a passenger and the Leafs high goal total is a result of his play not in spite of it.

Maybe but anaheims defense was questionable when lindholm got there and he still put up great numbers literally every year.

When torontos offense was bad, riellys #s were bad.. its not a coincidence his #s jumped up matthews, nylander and marner emerged.

Maybe he is, i dont watch toronto a lot but his career up till this past season show different

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Maybe but anaheims defense was questionable when lindholm got there and he still put up great numbers literally every year.

When torontos offense was bad, riellys #s were bad.. its not a coincidence his #s jumped up matthews, nylander and marner emerged.

Maybe he is, i dont watch toronto a lot but his career up till this past season show different

Ya if you think the ducks defense was questionable when Lindholm arrived you should look at who Rielly was/is playing with Lol.....

Ya but he was playing on a horrible team as like a 21/22 year old that was dead last in the NHL before Matthews and co joined up. I would expect as he gets older to put up better points regardless of his improved teammtes which obviously helped too.

 

[Notsince67]

Debate it then?

Lindholm has 27.3 points/82 in even strength situations, Rielly has 29.1 points/82. Considering Lindholm has twice as many goals, it easily follows that he had better offensive production 5on5 on a team more difficult to produce offense.

It easily follows that he's leaps better defensively, arguably as far as top-5 in the sport.

Just because Anaheim has Fowler and Montour ahead of him and an overall bad powerplay from the Forwards, doesn't make the offensive gap wider than it truly is.

Put it this way: If Lindholm had 37 points/82 on Anaheim, he would have scored ~45 points playing on Toronto last season with absolute certainty, at which point the "debate" isn't a debate anymore.

Offensive production for a defensman as measured with TOFF/60 (Total Offense, which is shot attempts plus estimated passes that resulted in shot attempts) yields:
EV
Lindholm:14.28
Rielly:25.31
Rielly generates this with higher QoC. (7th highest in the league vs 46th)
As far as defense goes, xGA/60.QoC for Lindholm is 2.42 vs Rielly at 2.43.

Both are great defensemen. I would personally stay away from claiming that Lindholm is better.
Heck...I wouldn't even claim that Rielly is better because situational changes can alter game play.

 

[imjustzach]

Both are great defensemen.

This is really the long and short of it. Unless there is a significant gap between two players, it's just too hard to make a definitive case for either player being better than the other. There are just too many variables (age, system, linemates, utilization, etc).

 

[Ducks DVM]

Larsson is the type of D the Leafs could use...but unfortunately, he comes with the stigma attached of being traded for Hall. I wouldn't move Nylander for him, and the futures type package i would offer wouldn't work for the win now Oilers. I would like to swoop in and grab Klefbom however...

The stigma is that top pairing D >>> any player not a legit 1C, and Nylander is not a legit 1C until he actually plays Center at the NHL level.

I’m curious - if team needs were different (as in the Ducks/Leafs forward corps were swapped), how many Toronto fans would swap Reilly for Nylander.