Nylander Discussion

[Stamkos4life]

Wow by your definition of elite no one on our team is elite.

Id say there are tiers.
Generational: McDavid, Crosby and Ovi
Elite: thats every 90+ point player or 40+ goal scorer and top 10 goalies (we have 3 maybe 4 if Andersen can creep in))
Stars: this is probably where nylander falls and on the mid to lower end

Then pretty much every other player in the league

Matthew's is an elite goal scorer.

Marner is elite offensively.

Tavares is elite.

Freddy can be elite, minus october.

Nylander is not a star. Or are you willing to give the label "star" to every player with a career high of 60 points? That would mean there were 74 "stars" in the league last year.

 

[Walshy7]

Matthew's is an elite goal scorer.

Marner is elite offensively.

Tavares is elite.

Freddy can be elite, minus october.

Nylander is not a star. Or are you willing to give the label "star" to every player with a career high of 60 points? That would mean there were 74 "stars" in the league last year.

74 out of 705? so the top 10.5% of the league?

edit: math is off my bad this doesnt include the other players above the 74

 

[Menzinger]

1.: having Nylander sit because he was unwilling to accept a fair contract wouldn't have been a mistake imo.

2.: who knows for sure what his trade value would have been if he sat the season? Could it be lower than a 7 mil under performing WN?

3.: contract negotiations are part of the business side of hockey, are you inferring Nylander wouldn't be able to play for the team if sat out the season or the leafs wouldn't welcome him back?

I don't think Nylander missing last season would have been a lose/lose situation, I'd call it a short term pain for long term gain scenario. Paying 7 mil for a 1 dimensional player who isn't living up to said contract is the real lose/lose situation.

I know were on polar opposite on this issue and there's nothing wrong with differing opinions, that's what the forums for.

Yes, im suggesting that the team having him sit out an entire season would kill the realtionshiip between them and the player. Theres no way hes going to happily enter the dressingroom the next training camp. The entire rest of the season would just be a media circus.

Contract negotiations, even difficult ones are absolutely part of hockey, having a healthy player miss a whole season isnt. Its abnormal which is why it never happens.

What team to going to give top assets for a player that had just gone through all of that drama AND hadn't played NHL hockey in a full season? Id suggest zero

If youre going down that route it would have been better to just to get the deal done and then give him super soft minutes amd then trade him at the tdl or early offseason. It would have worked just as well in terms of signalling to the other rfas.

 

[54thecup]

Willy has been the best forward on our team this season.

 

[rumman]

Yes, im suggesting that the team having him sit out an entire season would kill the realtionshiip between them and the player. Theres no way hes going to happily enter the dressingroom the next training camp. The entire rest of the season would just be a media circus.

Contract negotiations, even difficult ones are absolutely part of hockey, having a healthy player miss a whole season isnt. Its abnormal which is why it never happens.

What team to going to give top assets for a player that had just gone through all of that drama AND hadn't played NHL hockey in a full season? Id suggest zero

If youre going down that route it would have been better to just to get the deal done and then give him super soft minutes amd then trade him at the tdl or early offseason. It would have worked just as well in terms of signalling to the other rfas.

if you reread your post above you've answered why the Leafs or any other team for that matter would be interested in having him on their team

 

[Stamkos4life]

if you reread your post above you've answered why the Leafs or any other team for that matter wouldn't be interested in having him on their team

Nylander should've 100% been made to sit last season.

Would his value be any lower then it was after we signed him for 7 mil and he produced 0.5 ppg?

It would have set a good precedent with marner and Matthew's that we will not be played with.

Basically we gave in to nylander, over paid the other 2 rfa's, and then nylander repays the team with a 45 point pace.

He should've been told to go home for the season.

 

[slimbob8]

I've almost given up hope that Willy is gonna turn into the player I once thought. People keep talking about him like he's still destined to be some ppg star, but the reality is he's been playing at a sub 50 point pace for a long time now. By no means do I think he's a sub 50 point player because he's obviously got more talent than that, but he's nowhere near the level of star we had hoped only a few short years ago.

It's not just the point totals either that are disappointing. IMO he just lacks the confidence he used to have and he's become way too predictable. He skates down the right side, curls back and looks for the pass. Every. Single. Time. Opposing teams know this is coming now and they play him that way. Would it kill him just once to drive the net like Mikheyev does regularly?

He's not nearly as aggressive as he used to be. It's like the only time I ever see him shoot anymore is when he's wide open on the PP. And when he does shoot it's over the net 75% of the time. Hopefully the guy turns it around and reaches another level, but I'm not getting my hopes up at this point. If he didn't have the talent to do it it wouldn't be so upsetting, but he does so it's frustrating. Being an advanced stats star is great and all, but sooner or later the actual production (goals/assits) has gotta follow or it means nothing. Especially when you're getting paid 7M a year.

 

[rumman]

Nylander should've 100% been made to sit last season.

Would his value be any lower then it was after we signed him for 7 mil and he produced 0.5 ppg?

It would have set a good precedent with marner and Matthew's that we will not be played with.

Basically we gave in to nylander, over paid the other 2 rfa's, and then nylander repays the team with a 45 point pace.

He should've been told to go home for the season.

I honestly believe if this question was posed to him, he would have capitulated and signed a fair contract for both team and player. It wouldn't have gone as far as him sitting out the season, because come summer he'd be in the very same position, that's why it's called restricted free agency, because only a incompetent GM lets the player dictate the term when the team has the leverage.

No other team is letting their RFA's walk all over them, this is a Dubas move that no other NHL GM is willing to do for good reason.

 

[ottomaddox]

It only makes sense the most profitable team by far in the league is going to spend to max and beyond. The Leafs could spend double, maybe triple, and everyone knows it.

Yes, but sadly hockey fans love love love the underdog. If there wasn't a cap there might not be any underdogs.

I agree with you. I want a rich team to pay the most for the best. Sadly we have a league wide salary cap.

 

[Trapper]

I honestly believe if this question was posed to him, he would have capitulated and signed a fair contract for both team and player. It wouldn't have gone as far as him sitting out the season, because come summer he'd be in the very same position, that's why it's called restricted free agency, because only a incompetent GM lets the player dictate the term when the team has the leverage.

No other team is letting their RFA's walk all over them, this is a Dubas move that no other NHL GM is willing to do for good reason.

Can't remember the last RFA that went to the December 1st deadline.

 

[ottomaddox]

Nylander is a good player who has a lot to do if he wants to be among the best.

This is fair.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Nylander should've 100% been made to sit last season.

He was never going to sit out the entire year. None of these kids were going to blow a year of their career to end up in the exact same position of not having a contract in the year following.

Dubas was owned.

 

[rumman]

Can't remember the last RFA that went to the December 1st deadline.

exactly.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Yes, but sadly hockey fans love love love the underdog. If there wasn't a cap there might not be any underdogs.

I agree with you. I want a rich team to pay the most for the best. Sadly we have a league wide salary cap.

It is too bad. But I thought the new mgmt would do better with the rfa advantage but they have now screwed up spending it to max. Willy, Matty and Mitch are all overpaid but again even if Dubie was better at negotiating maybe we got 4M in space rather than 0. Still not enough to pick up a defensive stalward.

Without the CAP 10-15 teams would go tits up very quickly. To me I'd rather see better hockey played with fewer teams more like the 6 team super original league we used to have. and the players would get double and the hockey would systematically get better. But thats just me. Many friends like seeing a watered down parity based league where everyone gets a chance to win based on the draft.

 

[DarkKnight]

I think it fair comment to note there has been no uptick in production since PP1 time, which was a common complaint prior.

 

[rumman]

I think it fair comment to note there has been no uptick in production since PP1 time, which was a common complaint prior.

it's funny how quiet the Nylanderites have been, at least the ones who constantly were complaining their boy would light it up given #1 PP minutes.

 

[MarMarSab3]

Nylander is 88(was 29) and Matthews is 34.
They always play together.

Again False, come on man. This year yes, what about last year oh and the year before that? No they do not ALWAYS play together

 

[MarMarSab3]

Who would you rather see Nylander play with as his centre, to think Babcock was playing him where he has the best opportunity to succeed?[/QUOTE

Matthews all day every day. Then again ive always believed Nylander should be playing Center

 

[ACC1224]

Again False, come on man. This year yes, what about last year oh and the year before that? No they do not ALWAYS play together

Nylander missed half the season last year. You expected him to come in that far behind and play on the top line?

No one ALWAYS plays with the same player. They do play together the vast majority of the time.

 

[Menzinger]

I think it fair comment to note there has been no uptick in production since PP1 time, which was a common complaint prior.

Any broad statistical analysis of less than 20GP is pretty meaningless in terms of quality of a sample size.

So if he played 20-30 games.on PP unit 1 it'd be more telling vs say 5-6 games played. Its similar to getting mad at player for not putting up points of their first game of a callup - need more time to evaluate

 

[Trapper]

This is fair.

Fair for Nylander. I’d rather divert the money for a D who already gets it.
Especially since we have 3 UFA D next year and no goalies signed the year after.

 

[DarkKnight]

Any broad statistical analysis of less than 20GP is pretty meaningless in terms of quality of a sample size.

So if he played 20-30 games.on PP unit 1 it'd be more telling vs say 5-6 games played. Its similar to getting mad at player for not putting up points of their first game of a callup - need more time to evaluate

Meh.

 

[Bigmarycombo]

I've almost given up hope that Willy is gonna turn into the player I once thought. People keep talking about him like he's still destined to be some ppg star, but the reality is he's been playing at a sub 50 point pace for a long time now. By no means do I think he's a sub 50 point player because he's obviously got more talent than that, but he's nowhere near the level of star we had hoped only a few short years ago.

It's not just the point totals either that are disappointing. IMO he just lacks the confidence he used to have and he's become way too predictable. He skates down the right side, curls back and looks for the pass. Every. Single. Time. Opposing teams know this is coming now and they play him that way. Would it kill him just once to drive the net like Mikheyev does regularly?

He's not nearly as aggressive as he used to be. It's like the only time I ever see him shoot anymore is when he's wide open on the PP. And when he does shoot it's over the net 75% of the time. Hopefully the guy turns it around and reaches another level, but I'm not getting my hopes up at this point. If he didn't have the talent to do it it wouldn't be so upsetting, but he does so it's frustrating. Being an advanced stats star is great and all, but sooner or later the actual production (goals/assits) has gotta follow or it means nothing. Especially when you're getting paid 7M a year.

I honestly believe that Willy’s game is suited for the big ice and that is where he will shine. Smaller ice surface and big dman cut back on his game

 

[Sweet Leaf]

I think it fair comment to note there has been no uptick in production since PP1 time, which was a common complaint prior.

No, no, no! He's not playing the right half board so it doesn't count!

Until we get the perfect goldilocks zone set up for Nylander, we simply cannot levy any criticism. He needs:

1. To be stapled to one of the greatest even strength point getters in the league.

2. Have PP1 go through him on the right half board

3. Have a head coach who gives him positive validation everyday.

 

[Sweet Leaf]

Any broad statistical analysis of less than 20GP is pretty meaningless in terms of quality of a sample size.

So if he played 20-30 games.on PP unit 1 it'd be more telling vs say 5-6 games played.

Why does it never go the other way? Where is the 5-6 game small sample size of Nylander being productive and an offensive force over the last 2 years?

Over the last 80 games of his NHL career he has how many points? Playing shotgun to Matthews? That's a very large sample size. How much more sample size than the last couple of years do we need before we assume the underlying analytics are an outlier? How much more evidence do we need that he can't snipe as his shooting metrics indicate over a number of years now?