Jester9881
Registered User
Nelson will not be used on the RW. He's never played there at any level, and for good reason. How many defensive forwards do you know that play the off wing?
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LeapOnOver
Mackenzie is a hack!
PK Cronin
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If it's 2a and 2b, it doesn't matter which line he ends up on, as long as he's with the right players. I also wouldn't be surprised if he was on the 2nd PP unit.
Guys, Bailey is at the top end of 2nd line wingers in the entire NHL. Just stop with this talk about how he 'hasn't earned squat'...it's just absurd. Kulemin had 18 less points than him last season.
It is, I was only joking about it.
rikker
Registered User
Bailey is just as deserving as any other player on the team, right now. Lee and Nelson are promising options, but all 3 of them are still maturing. with such a young team, it is virtually impossible to predict who will be 1st line LW.
i like Nelson because he adds some speed and defensive acumen to the line, allowing JT and KO to be more focused on the offensive side of things. would like to see Lee with JT and KO on the 1st PP unit though. i think we are going to have lots of options this year, finally.
back on topic... sounded like Poulin had a good game, along with Bailey, Clutterbuck, and Grabo.
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I stopped reading after you said "Bailey is at the top end of 2nd line wingers in the entire NHL". Maybe the National Horticultaral League, but certainly not the National Hockey League. Bailey is just a horrible player who belongs nowhere near the 1st or 2nd line of any hockey team. To use a football term, he's a drive killer, he ruins most offensive chances with his lack of natural ability and hockey sense. He went 38 games without scoring a goal. Hell Lee had more goals, and only played 22 games.
I implore anyone with half a brain (that means you Islander's coaches), to keep Bailey away from the 1st two lines.
Brunomics
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Josh Bailey properly utilized is a 3rd line winger. He is nice to have as a fill in if someone in the top six goes down but other than that you don't want him having consistant ice time with your top forwards. Let him put up 30-35 points on the third line and he'll be valuable in that role.
SLAPSHOT723
QU! Bobcats!
Brunomics
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BillD
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Josh Bailey is nowhere near the top end of NHL 2nd line forwards. He has been barely a an average 3rd liner. That does not mean he could not finally reach his draft expectations, but based on performance to date, he needs to really step it up the way Okposo did last year.
I do not hate on JB, I like him and hope that he succeeds, but so far it is a huge stretch to say he is a top 2nd liner in the NHL.
LG Josh
LGI
I do not hate on JB, I like him and hope that he succeeds, but so far it is a huge stretch to say he is a top 2nd liner in the NHL.
LG Josh
LGI
By minutes played I agree it will end up being a 2a and 2b, but 2b(Nielsens line) will be taking that prominent defensive responsibilities, so for that reason I would prefer to see Bailey on that line, while it gives Strome and Nelson the opportunity to flourish offensively.
PK Cronin
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It's really simple math guys. Bailey had 38 points last season, which was good for 37th in the entire NHL for right wingers. There are 30 first line RW's in the NHL. That means that Bailey is the 7th best 2nd line RW in the entire NHL according to production (which is what people love to harp on). That puts him easily into the top half of all NHL wingers. Not to mention he's defensively responsible to boot.
He had 18 more points than Kulemin. I guess we won't acknowledge that since we don't have pitchforks out for Kule yet.
PK Cronin
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If that's how it plays out, I'd agree.
Where? All I see are interviews from the 21st.
I had to listen to the games online on TSN 1200's website, it's been a long summer and it's great to have hockey back on the Island.
Yes it does feels good....in September! But Remember the Giants were 5-0 during the pre-season and they might have more wins in August then the whole regular season.....
Lets Go Islanders!
InformTheMasses
Registered User
You aren't using the proper data. Not even for pure offensive production.
Bailey had 28 even strength points last year (would be unfair to compare a guy who gets more power play time and benefited from play extra man). That ranks him about 150 among forwards. A low end second liner. When we include players who missed some time do to injury and use the even strength points per game (for players that played at least 41 games) that puts Bailey at around 200 among forwards.
If we are talking offensive production... he is FAR FAR FAR FROM a top tier NHL second liner. That's only if we are being fair and not cherry picking data to support a biased argument. Like only comparing him to rw. First, that data isn't accurate. Second Josh Bailey isn't a rw. He is not a bad player but he is when he plays right wing.... looks completely lost. He also looks terrible at center. No big deal he is an effective left winger. Nothing wrong with that. Here's the problem, he isn't a top 6 winger and is not a player that belongs on any contending team's power play.
So having said all that Josh Bailey is an average to above average THIRD line left winger. A left winger that can't produce enough to be on a powerplay, and one that is probably the 5th best penalty killing forward on the team behind Grabner, clutterbuck, Nielsen, and Kulemin.
Speaking of Kulemin, he is Bailey's direct competition as Kulemin is also most effective as a third line lw. Problem for Bailey is that Kulemin is better and more well rounded in every aspect of the game. Kulemin scored 8 less even strength points than Bailey last season in 100 less minutes. Kulemin was Toronto's top penalty killer minutes wise as a forward so his even strength play suffered due to his heavy usage on penalty kill. (Unless you want to punish Kulemin for being extremely effective and used heavily on special teams?). Kulemin number 1 job was to be a defensive forward and matchup against the other teams top lines. He didn't get as many opportunities to skate and produce offense like Bailey was often asked to do last year. This could be a reason why Kulemin finished 6 pro rated even strength points behind Bailey (which isn't as big a gap as your making it out to be).
That's just the offense. Kulemin is more effective on both special teams pk AND pp (due to his play in front of the net and boards) and he's bigger stronger and more physical.
Bailey has work to do to stay in the top 9.... never mind erroneous claims of top tier second line. Because I have to be honest, I don't even think Josh Bailey HIMSELF thinks of himself as such.
CaptDenisPotvin
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No, I think the major issue is watching Bailey play he kills just as many if not more opportunities than he creates...Sure he has the point total of a second line RW but in no way shape or form plays like a top 6 forward on any team.
Without actually looking up all the wingers, I can say fairly confidently that I would probably take the 5th best winger from every other team before Bailey.
PK Cronin
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So you attack me for 'cherry picking' stats, then cherry pick your entire argument with what ifs and qualifiers?
So Nielsen only outproduced Bailey by 7 points at ES, so they are essentially the same then, right? Nielsen was promoted to the top line last season when Tavares went down, so that's why he racked up those 7 extra points. Also, he played 200 more minutes.
I'm pretty sure Bailey played the whole season last year on the RW, so, he was a RW last year. And notice how you say ES points puts Bailey at 150th among forwards...what happens when we sort those forwards by position? Bailey finishes 39th in ES points out of RW. If you want to look at LW, like you want to, he finishes 42nd next to Rick Nash. Again, that puts him clearly in the top half of production for 2nd line wingers.
You're going to play the injury game? Guys get injured, it happens, but it's impossible for you to accurately calculate what those players would've done if they were healthy. The fact is that Bailey finished in the top half of production for wingers.
Kulemin is supposed to be a solid player, and I'm really pleased we have him, but don't pretend as if Bailey isn't tasked (along with Nielsen and Grabner) to play a shutdown role. Bailey excels defensively and has one of the highest corsi numbers on the team. Kulemin is definitely more physical than Bailey, but I don't think that makes him leaps and bounds better.
I just hate it when the Bailey haters go around, in every thread, and talk about how he needs to go blah blah blah and ramble off a bunch of useless jibberish that isn't quantified at all. I've broken it down, time and time again, Bailey is in the top half of production for wingers in the NHL. He's defensively responsible. He's good at the PK. He's very versatile up front in terms of what position he can play. So if your gripe is that he isn't physical or shouldn't be on the top PP unit (which he's not), then fine, those are fair arguments. Harping on his not scoring a goal in 30 whatever games and how he doesn't produce, well, even without scoring a goal in that set number of games he still produced well enough to be in the top half of the NHL for wingers. It's a ridiculous argument. Argue consistency, not lack of production.
I have to agree here. The Bailey hate is borderline irrational, at this point. You would find many similar posts on Okposo if you looked back 2-3 years. Bailey's biggest issue is consistency, our fans biggest issue with Bailey (and many of our high profile young players) is patience.
PK Cronin
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And just to get it back on track, here are the highlights from the 2nd game last night.
http://video.senators.nhl.com/videocenter/?id=632171&catid=1415
http://video.senators.nhl.com/videocenter/?id=632171&catid=1415
InformTheMasses
Registered User
Is Bailey NOT a forward? Unless you can prove that Bailey played all of his minutes a right winger and all of the other forwards played all of their minutes at the position they are listed in then using that as the total universe of players to compare them too is seriously flawed. I would think Broadway Jay would not only understand that but be an advocate of that but apparently not.
Comparing forwards to forwards is a much fairer comparison but that's my opinion.
Btw Josh Bailey may have played 200 less minutes than Frans but that's because.of.special teams. Unlike bailey, Frans is a special teams dynamo on both ends of the ice.
Bailey actually played 25 MORE minutes than Frans on even strength. Mind boggling.
Comparing forwards to forwards is a much fairer comparison but that's my opinion.
Btw Josh Bailey may have played 200 less minutes than Frans but that's because.of.special teams. Unlike bailey, Frans is a special teams dynamo on both ends of the ice.
Bailey actually played 25 MORE minutes than Frans on even strength. Mind boggling.
i respect what you're saying, but using those stats don't mean much. Like always, Bailey always seems to rack up those points when the season is over (last year after 50 games). He seems to do this EVERY year. He teases you in the start of the season, then disappears for 40+ games, then racks up points when the games don't matter.
I actually don't agree at all with the notion that he needs to be compared to Right Wingers. Forwards are forwards. Centers can play anywhere, they're just defensively responsible forwards.
That's another conversation.
I applaud him for appreciating the nuance of why Bailey is underrated. I don't agree with every application of facts from either of you, I'd prefer something a bit more rigorous. I will say that I think Bailey has a lot more value than folks make out, and if we'd like to have that conversation we can start a new thread for it but I've seen it get played out quite a bit.
The highlights are that Bailey is good defensively and a good possession forward who continues to improve. I actually think his spells of low production are not a terrible thing at all. What happens when Bailey puts it all together and produces at his "hot" pace all the time? I like him.
