NY Islanders Sale Talk Part II

[BillD]

Well anything is possible. remember "Christmas Carol" lol.
After year 2001 Wang ran the team on the cheap, getting down to the cap floor the past number of years are rarely exceeding it. In fact, it is documented (do not ask for verification, I will ignore you) that Wang used every type of subterfuge, tricks, loopholes to circumvent the cap floor and actually pay salary below the floor.
I know that Snow said in the past that he had the green light to spend, he just never found value for the payment. Value is ambiguous. So now, in the midst of talk/speculation about a sale of the team, we are looking at an attempt to increase spending more than $10MM above the cap floor. Our last year at NVMC and Scrooge is now Mr. Merry Christmas? I don't think so but anything is possible.
Yes, he backloaded Grabner and Okposo's contracts, and now he is paying out the higher salary because they are in the last two years.
We are not moving salary out, we have no one that makes enough to make a difference (possibly Vis).
All I am trying to point out is that there are circumstance that are different than every before going on, and while looking for some explanation can lead to various theories, how about the one that seems to support the recent talk of a sale of the team being completed and the new owner wanting to get this team off on the right track the year before Brooklyn?
As for everything is just speculation until we hear the news...well sure. But those who feel that way could just do that, ignore anything that is not the news. Whatever flavor makes ya happy.

 

[replayer]

Florida has sunshine and a modern facility.

Also, don't underestimate the lack of a state income tax and year round golf opportunities. For athletes making millions, that's a big deal.

 

[IslesFanatic]

Nevermind Barroway greenlighting more spending...how about considering that Snow has been telling the truth all along that there are no cap restrictions, that the money has always been there to spend, but there were no takers (Ehroff? Kovie? Hamhuis? Martin? Vanek?) because of the crappy rebuilding team and crappy old arena?

Now we have a team that is better and a year away from modern facilities, Vanek is offered a 50 million dollar deal, Halak signs a 20 million dollar deal, an Boyle is offered a ten million dollar deal...all this on top of re-upping Tavares, Okposo, Bailey, Grabner...how do the money deniers square that circle?

The answer is they cannot. Oh Capuano is the coach because he doesn't require as much money? Oh, okay, explain Boudreau, Bylsma, and every other rookie coach that broke into the league...everyone starts somewhere...

In the arena of speculation, the plausibility of the Islanders doing things on the cheap and being the cheapest in the league cannot be proven. There are elite franchises that have unwavering fan support in better buildings, from stronger hockey markets, that haven't gone through a tenth of the crap the Islanders have had to endure from crooked owners and a culpably incorrect GM in Mike Milbury...in short no other team that has been down so low has also been kept there in the hearts of a contingent of "fans" that equate every move with derision and suspicion as though they are insiders and know what really is going on behind the scenes.

dude, how can you argue against the fact that isles were bottom 5 in payroll throughout most of Wang's tenure? Its A FACT. AND a lot of the times when the team was at the cap floor, the ACTUAL on ice product was less than cap floor. They were at the cap floor because of bonuses and buy outs.

 

[BillD]

dude, how can you argue against the fact that isles were bottom 5 in payroll throughout most of Wang's tenure? Its A FACT. AND a lot of the times when the team was at the cap floor, the ACTUAL on ice product was less than cap floor. They were at the cap floor because of bonuses and buy outs.

Exactly. So who is authorizing and paying for a $10MM jump above the floor this year (if we get the LW)?

 

[bluechipbonzo]

dude, how can you argue against the fact that isles were bottom 5 in payroll throughout most of Wang's tenure? Its A FACT. AND a lot of the times when the team was at the cap floor, the ACTUAL on ice product was less than cap floor. They were at the cap floor because of bonuses and buy outs.

It's a fact...the separation here is people arguing that this means Snow never offered free agent contracts that would push their cap higher, or that his re-signing of Tavares et al. was consistent with this cheapness and not with an eye on retaining young talent down the road...

All them top five spending teams hoisting the cup every year?

All the other bottom five teams missing the playoffs every year?

Every team is different in the current personnel, the development and curve of each draft pick, the market, etc.

Certainly Wang went from spending (DP, Yash, Peca) to a more conservative model embracing the youth movement...but to cherry pick one or two players (Bailey, Nino) as some are wont to do here to justify a cap trick argument just doesn't hold water if you look at the development of Tavares, Hamonic, Okposo...other GM's get accolades for signing great deals, Snow gets accuded of cap circumvention because he had the foresight and trust in his scouts to extend Nielsen, Macdonald? To grab a top sixer in Moulson? What, he passes on re-signing Grabner because he's worried about eventually having to pay him like a 30 goal scorer?

Too mny examples that contradict the no money theory, when I suspect it's a bit of both...

 

[IslesFanatic]

It's a fact...the separation here is people arguing that this means Snow never offered free agent contracts that would push their cap higher, or that his re-signing of Tavares et al. was consistent with this cheapness and not with an eye on retaining young talent down the road...

All them top five spending teams hoisting the cup every year?

All the other bottom five teams missing the playoffs every year?

Every team is different in the current personnel, the development and curve of each draft pick, the market, etc.

Certainly Wang went from spending (DP, Yash, Peca) to a more conservative model embracing the youth movement...but to cherry pick one or two players (Bailey, Nino) as some are wont to do here to justify a cap trick argument just doesn't hold water if you look at the development of Tavares, Hamonic, Okposo...other GM's get accolades for signing great deals, Snow gets accuded of cap circumvention because he had the foresight and trust in his scouts to extend Nielsen, Macdonald? To grab a top sixer in Moulson? What, he passes on re-signing Grabner because he's worried about eventually having to pay him like a 30 goal scorer?

Too mny examples that contradict the no money theory, when I suspect it's a bit of both...

I applaud Snow for the contract extensions he has given the guys. Very well done. However, he still ices a **** team no matter how we look at it and part of the problem is having a cheapo ass owner.

Heres one example. Passed on paying PA 4 million which was market value and instead signed a cheaper player in Boyes. That's just one example.

 

[kpap57]

Exactly. So who is authorizing and paying for a $10MM jump above the floor this year (if we get the LW)?

Revenue sharing

 

[bluechipbonzo]

I applaud Snow for the contract extensions he has given the guys. Very well done. However, he still ices a **** team no matter how we look at it and part of the problem is having a cheapo ass owner.

Heres one example. Passed on paying PA 4 million which was market value and instead signed a cheaper player in Boyes. That's just one example.

PAP ended up getting that, but what was he asking? Snow wanted to lock JT up, and did at $5.5...you sign PAP for that, and it throws the salary structure outta whack and next thing you know, you're the Hawks...

Boyes with Tavares brings the team to the playoffs...and he was signed after Snow chased other free agents for more money. Of course there's no way to prove this...other than no top free agents wanting to sign here, bottom team still growing...crummy building...

Now PAP is on the outs in Colorado...one dimensional...Snow saw that...like he did with Moulson's deficiencies...smart asset management.

 

[IslesFanatic]

PAP ended up getting that, but what was he asking? Snow wanted to lock JT up, and did at $5.5...you sign PAP for that, and it throws the salary structure outta whack and next thing you know, you're the Hawks...

Boyes with Tavares brings the team to the playoffs...and he was signed after Snow chased other free agents for more money. Of course there's no way to prove this...other than no top free agents wanting to sign here, bottom team still growing...crummy building...

Now PAP is on the outs in Colorado...one dimensional...Snow saw that...like he did with Moulson's deficiencies...smart asset management.

Moulson was a 3 time 30 goal scorer playing on the line with one of his best friends. And he wanted to stay here. Vanek is obviously the better player, no doubt, but that trade is still iffy.

 

[IslesFanatic]

PAP ended up getting that, but what was he asking? Snow wanted to lock JT up, and did at $5.5...you sign PAP for that, and it throws the salary structure outta whack and next thing you know, you're the Hawks...

Boyes with Tavares brings the team to the playoffs...and he was signed after Snow chased other free agents for more money. Of course there's no way to prove this...other than no top free agents wanting to sign here, bottom team still growing...crummy building...

Now PAP is on the outs in Colorado...one dimensional...Snow saw that...like he did with Moulson's deficiencies...smart asset management.

Rather be the Hawks than the isles. They somehow figure it out and have become contenders every year for the past 6-7 years.

 

[blitzkriegs]

Also, don't underestimate the lack of a state income tax and year round golf opportunities. For athletes making millions, that's a big deal.

Players are flooding in droves to FL? Taxes are A factor, but lower on the totem pole than winning, management, salary, etc. FL is NOT a destination in any pro sport besides maybe NBA.

Players also pay taxes in every state they play in - so it's really only 41 games of salary that the FL benefit kicks in. I think Guerin is the last guy that it was obvious he wanted that benefit and he went to TX.

 

[blitzkriegs]

PAP ended up getting that, but what was he asking? Snow wanted to lock JT up, and did at $5.5...you sign PAP for that, and it throws the salary structure outta whack and next thing you know, you're the Hawks...

Boyes with Tavares brings the team to the playoffs...and he was signed after Snow chased other free agents for more money. Of course there's no way to prove this...other than no top free agents wanting to sign here, bottom team still growing...crummy building...

Now PAP is on the outs in Colorado...one dimensional...Snow saw that...like he did with Moulson's deficiencies...smart asset management.

Really? I'd LOVE to have the Hawks cap problems. Is that what Isles fans seriously think? "Don't wanna be THEM and have THEIR problem" yet that team somehow finds a way to stay way beyond competitive, despite annual roster tweaks and, I don't know, a couple of Cups in the process.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Moulson was a 3 time 30 goal scorer playing on the line with one of his best friends. And he wanted to stay here. Vanek is obviously the better player, no doubt, but that trade is still iffy.

Except he was holding JT back and was demoted. Then he wouldn't give the team that MADE his career a hometown discount, thinking bout his small role in the big picture of building a consistent contender. See ya Matty Ice...

Same with PAP and Macdonald...

And why did Garf just let PAP's contract expire? If the team was so cheap, why not trade him for another draft pick that could be brought in and paid less money than a free agent? Could it be they were hoping to retain him, and like the Moulson thinking were hoping his demands would be reasonable, considering team salary structure, and that the Isles made him too?

Player greed plays a role here too, and not just with the free agents that won't sign...

 

[IslesFanatic]

Really? I'd LOVE to have the Hawks cap problems. Is that what Isles fans seriously think? "Don't wanna be THEM and have THEIR problem" yet that team somehow finds a way to stay way beyond competitive, despite annual roster tweaks and, I don't know, a couple of Cups in the process.

without a doubt blitz. Isles vs hawks? I will take the hawks situation 10000 times out of 10000. Guess when you have a good GM and an owner willing to spend that's quite possible. We have cheapo and clueless.

 

[IslesFanatic]

Except he was holding JT back and was demoted. Then he wouldn't give the team that MADE his career a hometown discount, thinking bout his small role in the big picture of building a consistent contender. See ya Matty Ice...

Holding JT back? 3 CONSECUTIVE 30 goal seasons? Hometown discounts are ********. He deserves to be paid like a 30 goal scorer. Whether we like it or not.

Small role? Now being a 30 goal scorer is a small role? Isles have any 30 goal scorers this year?

 

[blitzkriegs]

It's a fact...the separation here is people arguing that this means Snow never offered free agent contracts that would push their cap higher, or that his re-signing of Tavares et al. was consistent with this cheapness and not with an eye on retaining young talent down the road...

All them top five spending teams hoisting the cup every year?

All the other bottom five teams missing the playoffs every year?

Every team is different in the current personnel, the development and curve of each draft pick, the market, etc.

Certainly Wang went from spending (DP, Yash, Peca) to a more conservative model embracing the youth movement...but to cherry pick one or two players (Bailey, Nino) as some are wont to do here to justify a cap trick argument just doesn't hold water if you look at the development of Tavares, Hamonic, Okposo...other GM's get accolades for signing great deals, Snow gets accuded of cap circumvention because he had the foresight and trust in his scouts to extend Nielsen, Macdonald? To grab a top sixer in Moulson? What, he passes on re-signing Grabner because he's worried about eventually having to pay him like a 30 goal scorer?

Too mny examples that contradict the no money theory, when I suspect it's a bit of both...

He offered money, of course. Ever see the details of those offers like Ehrhoff and Kovy? A little bizarrely structured to say the least. They offer money but get nowhere. When you than use ELC and over 35'er bonuses to reach the floor no smart freaking player no matter the money wants to sign on. Why? Because it shows the owner does NOT want to spend to win.

Does Snow get credit for good contracts? Sure. You also realize like 99 percent of teams retain their RFAs - it's a matter of settling on term and money. When it's been time to pay market...off you go Mr. Player: MCd, PAP, Streit, etc.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Florida has sunshine and a modern facility...and we've added average players- Guerin, Comrie, PAP, Moulson...by the time bums like Regin and PMB were added, you would have liked to think that the kids were ready to take the reins...and our model was forced on us with the free agent black hole- I like tha garf avoided over paying vets who would have taken playing spots, and while maybe pushing the team up the standings some, we'd simply be "not bad enough" to enjoy the draft positions the so-called elite franchises like Pitt and Wash and Chicago enjoyed to get their studs and get them to where they are now.

I see a GM that realized the free agents weren't signing for anything less than an overpayment, and wanting to keep a reasonable salary structure in place (hello Chicago, you shoulda won another cup) was a bonus while the kids developed.

Bailey had the maturity and did quite well his first two seasons. He was never suppose to be a first liner...and not all draft picks turn out as planned. As for Nino, he had the size, and did squat with it. He was concussed and played scared after that. Then he pulled the trade demand stunt. I applaud Snow for not giving in and building a culture of accountability where the team comes first. How many other players benefitted from Nino being put in his place?

And f we are so cheap, why didn't we just rush all our prospects? Didn't we need their cap hits? Explain.

Why did we re-up Tavares? Okposo? Grabner? Bailey? Hamonic? The line of thinking needs to be consistent here...

He got what he could from free agency at the bare minimum. He didn't go over, and he filled in shortfalls with Bailey and Nino, likely against his better judgement but at the direction of the angry meddler. He reupped the young guys normally, but even then,did he, or should I ask, did they? Who benefitted the most by back loaded contracts? When Wang sells the team, who takes the salary hit on the back loaded contracts? Keep it real Bonzo.

 

[IslesFanatic]

He offered money, of course. Ever see the details of those offers like Ehrhoff and Kovy? A little bizarrely structured to say the least. They offer money but get nowhere. When you than use ELC and over 35'er bonuses to reach the floor no smart freaking player no matter the money wants to sign on. Why? Because it shows the owner does NOT want to spend to win.

Does Snow get credit for good contracts? Sure. You also realize like 99 percent of teams retain their RFAs - it's a matter of settling on term and money. When it's been time to pay market...off you go Mr. Player: MCd, PAP, Streit, etc.

They traded for Erhoff's right and then offered him a BACKLOADED contract. What UFA would sign that? None. it was a joke.

 

[IslesFanatic]

He got what he could from free agency at the bare minimum. He didn't go over, and he filled in shortfalls with Bailey and Nino, likely against his better judgement but at the direction of the angry meddler. He reupped the young guys normally, but even then,did he, or should I ask, did they? Who benefitted the most by back loaded contracts? When Wang sells the team, who takes the salary hit on the back loaded contracts? Keep it real Bonzo.

BINGO. The new owner. Cheap **** Chuck at it again.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Rather be the Hawks than the isles. They somehow figure it out and have become contenders every year for the past 6-7 years.

Oh me too. But while the Isles were spending on free agents and missing out on terrific drafts, the hawks were collecting Toews and Kane.

Give JT one of those guys on his wing two years ago and we beat the Pens. Heck, the whole recent history of this team changes...including free agents wanting to sign, maybe getting a new arena in nassau with a sold out rejuvenated fort neverlose etc etc

I understand Wang tightens the purse strings, but he's not the only owner, and there are other circumstances at work here

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Holding JT back? 3 CONSECUTIVE 30 goal seasons? Hometown discounts are ********. He deserves to be paid like a 30 goal scorer. Whether we like it or not.

Small role? Now being a 30 goal scorer is a small role? Isles have any 30 goal scorers this year?

His small role that his ability relegated him to in the big picture, and down the road- he's not a first liner on a contender.

 

[IslesFanatic]

Oh me too. But while the Isles were spending on free agents and missing out on terrific drafts, the hawks were collecting Toews and Kane.

Give JT one of those guys on his wing two years ago and we beat the Pens. Heck, the whole recent history of this team changes...including free agents wanting to sign, maybe getting a new arena in nassau with a sold out rejuvenated fort neverlose etc etc

I understand Wang tightens the purse strings, but he's not the only owner, and there are other circumstances at work here

I agree. However, players don't want to sign here because of the way the **** show is run by Wang and Snow. Those two (more so Wang) has shown no intention of winning and his actions have shown that he doesn't really give a crap about winning. Does the arena play a part? I'm sure it does. But, at the end of the day players want to play for a winner and an owner who wants to win. arena can be ******, but if the player knows the owner is willing to spend to win? That could make a big difference.

 

[blitzkriegs]

Oh me too. But while the Isles were spending on free agents and missing out on terrific drafts, the hawks were collecting Toews and Kane.

Give JT one of those guys on his wing two years ago and we beat the Pens. Heck, the whole recent history of this team changes...including free agents wanting to sign, maybe getting a new arena in nassau with a sold out rejuvenated fort neverlose etc etc

I understand Wang tightens the purse strings, but he's not the only owner, and there are other circumstances at work here

He's the second longest tenured owner of the team and it's been one giant horrendous ride. It's time for it to end. I don't thank Wang for saving the Isles as many Isles seem to love to do. Why? Because since he's owned the team there has been zero expansion and one relocation - a team that failed miserably in a non-traditional hockey market. That's it. The threats, pseudo threats, whatever are and were always puffing. The league didn't let PHO move, yet was going to be ok with moving a team from the NY/metro market. Uh-huh. Sure.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

They traded for Erhoff's right and then offered him a BACKLOADED contract. What UFA would sign that? None. it was a joke.

It could have been...I don't know that, never saw the fine print...was it published somewhere?

Here's an example of you applying what Snow did with Okposo, Bailey, etc with a UFA...so Snow didn't really want Ehroff, or Wang didn't?

Snow invented the backloaded contract?

No other free agent signed this type of deal?

Just avoided the Isles blc because of losing culture and building?

 

[A Pointed Stick]

It's a fact...the separation here is people arguing that this means Snow never offered free agent contracts that would push their cap higher, or that his re-signing of Tavares et al. was consistent with this cheapness and not with an eye on retaining young talent down the road...

All them top five spending teams hoisting the cup every year?

All the other bottom five teams missing the playoffs every year?

Every team is different in the current personnel, the development and curve of each draft pick, the market, etc.

Certainly Wang went from spending (DP, Yash, Peca) to a more conservative model embracing the youth movement...but to cherry pick one or two players (Bailey, Nino) as some are wont to do here to justify a cap trick argument just doesn't hold water if you look at the development of Tavares, Hamonic, Okposo...other GM's get accolades for signing great deals, Snow gets accuded of cap circumvention because he had the foresight and trust in his scouts to extend Nielsen, Macdonald? To grab a top sixer in Moulson? What, he passes on re-signing Grabner because he's worried about eventually having to pay him like a 30 goal scorer?

Too mny examples that contradict the no money theory, when I suspect it's a bit of both...

I almost missed this. Regarding all those contract offers to ufas that would have pushed us deeper into real team salary area. They weren't all at the same time. At any given moment we could have taken one on and still made the internal salary cap (floor). When he failed to make one of those offers work, plan B kicked in, which was promote and pay a kid too early, and keep them up and sit the for long stretches when his own coach wouldn't play him, because he sucked.