Confirmed Trade: [NSH/NJD] P.K. Subban traded to Devils for Santini, Davies, 2019 2nd and 2020 2nd Part II

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Sorry, but you can't include non-trade pieces in trades. This trade's in a vacuum. If 2 2nds was the return, they should have been able to do better.

If you choose to adopt that perspective, sure.

In reality, though, they needed to dump every dollar of Subban's contract to afford Duchene. They certainly could have gotten much better for Subban, but it would have involved salary going the other way, which would have made Duchene an impossibility. Because NJD was probably the only team that could absorb the full value of Subban's deal, no questions asked, NSH was backed into a corner. Zero leverage, but they didn't care, because trading Subban to New Jersey all but guaranteed Duchene.

Subban for Duchene may not have happened on paper, but it was 100% Poile's calculus here.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

I feel like it's ok that you don't see it. Most Devils fans seemed to like it, and most Nash fans seem to be ok with as well. I'm failing to see why you need to be convinced.

Subban is underrated on here. Subban provides much, much, much more value than any combination of Turris, Bonino, Smith, Sisssons, and the fact that people here fail to admit that is quite hilarious.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

If you choose to adopt that perspective, sure.

In reality, though, they needed to dump every dollar of Subban's contract to afford Duchene. They certainly could have gotten much better for Subban, but it would have involved salary going the other way, which would have made Duchene an impossibility. Because NJD was probably the only team that could absorb the full value of Subban's deal, no questions asked, NSH was backed into a corner. Zero leverage, but they didn't care, because trading Subban to New Jersey all but guaranteed Duchene.

Subban for Duchene may not have happened on paper, but it was 100% Poile's calculus here.

Why did they need to dump Subban to afford Duchene? Why not Turris+Bonino? Or Bonino+Smith? Or Turris+Smith? Keeping Subban and trading all those guys would be much better than trading Subban for nothing.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

But they had to. If this was the best offer they had, should they have just held onto Subban and risked having Duchene sign elsewhere?

I don’t think so.

I'd bet anything that it wasn't the best offer they had.

BUT, it was certainly the only offer they had that didn't involve retention. Any amount of retention would've bungled the Duchene plans.

 

[ijuka]

If you choose to adopt that perspective, sure.

In reality, though, they needed to dump every dollar of Subban's contract to afford Duchene. They certainly could have gotten much better for Subban, but it would have involved salary going the other way, which would have made Duchene an impossibility. Because NJD was probably the only team that could absorb the full value of Subban's deal, no questions asked, NSH was backed into a corner. Zero leverage, but they didn't care, because trading Subban to New Jersey all but guaranteed Duchene.

Subban for Duchene may not have happened on paper, but it was 100% Poile's calculus here.

There are other possibilities as well, such as multiple trades or different pieces. It's incredible how fans trade after trade delude themselves into thinking that losing a trade was inevitable, or even a positive.

I'd bet anything that it wasn't the best offer they had.

BUT, it was certainly the only offer they had that didn't involve retention. Any amount of retention would've bungled the Duchene plans.

Nice inside information that you have. Source?

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

There are other possibilities as well, such as multiple trades or different pieces. It's incredible how fans trade after trade delude themselves into thinking that losing a trade was inevitable, or even a positive.

Somehow trading Subban is the only way to get Duchene. Nashville has several replacement level players making 15+ mil combined that could be dealt.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Subban is underrated on here. Subban provides much, much, much more value than any combination of Turris, Bonino, Smith, Sisssons, and the fact that people here fail to admit that is quite hilarious.

For Nashville, and all their players, it made sense for them to move out 9 mil a year for the next 3 years. For the Devils, 9 mil for the next 3 years for Subban made sense as well. Of course you have some Nashville fans bad talking Subban like he's an ex gf they don't want anyone to know they ever cared about, and some Devils up talking him like we won the trade of the decade.

But the truth lies in the middle somewhere, and it's somewhere around "win-win."

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

For Nashville, and all their players, it made sense for them to move out 9 mil a year for the next 3 years. For the Devils, 9 mil for the next 3 years for Subban made sense as well. Of course you have some Nashville fans bad talking Subban like he's an ex gf they don't want anyone to know they ever cared about, and some Devils up talking him like we won the trade of the decade.

But the truth lies in the middle somewhere, and it's somewhere around "win-win."

What? Turris, Bonino and Smith are all replacement level, or near replacement level players making 15M. Why not deal those three instead?

 

[hockeyguru]

For Nashville, and all their players, it made sense for them to move out 9 mil a year for the next 3 years. For the Devils, 9 mil for the next 3 years for Subban made sense as well. Of course you have some Nashville fans bad talking Subban like he's an ex gf they don't want anyone to know they ever cared about, and some Devils up talking him like we won the trade of the decade.

But the truth lies in the middle somewhere, and it's somewhere around "win-win."

it's not though. nashville got hosed in this deal.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I'd bet anything that it wasn't the best offer they had.

BUT, it was certainly the only offer they had that didn't involve retention. Any amount of retention would've bungled the Duchene plans.

That’s what I meant. The best offer that let them sign Duchene.

 

[triggrman]

Or, trade Smith/Turris and Bonino, keep Subban, sign Duchene, and you are a much better team than you are today.

The cap space wasn't just for Duchene, it was also to makes room for us to resign Josi. Also, we need more forward depth, not less and we have plenty of defensive depth.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Why did they need to dump Subban to afford Duchene? Why not Turris+Bonino? Or Bonino+Smith? Or Turris+Smith? Keeping Subban and trading all those guys would be much better than trading Subban for nothing.

Who's trading for Turris' contract after the year he had?

I'm with you on Bonino+... I thought, for sure, Bonino would be on the way out, perhaps as a token veteran in Ottawa or something. I was told the same thing when I poked around Nashville's board inquiring about Subban before we acquired him.

My best answer to your question is the timeline. Dishing multiple pieces to come up with Duchene's AAV sounds great, but it was probably much more difficult in practice... especially with free agency looming just days after Poile pulled the trigger on Subban.

In fact, in his presser following the trade, Shero acknowledged that the Subban deal was agreed upon several days prior to it actually happening. Ultimately, Poile gave him a ring, and said something to the effect of, "let's do this." I'd bet Poile was conducting last ditch efforts to dump the very packages you listed above, but was unsuccessful.

EDIT: @ijuka - more efficient to just tag you here, rather than re-hashing all of this in a response to you.

 

[TrufleShufle]

What? Turris, Bonino and Smith are all replacement level, or near replacement level players making 15M. Why not deal those three instead?

Maybe they tried? Idk man, this thread was bumped to say Santini got waived. Move on.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

The cap space wasn't just for Duchene, it was also to make room to resign Josi. Also, we need more forward depth, not less and we have plenty of defensive depth.

How are three replacement level players forward depth? You can literally claim a guy like Agostino on waivers and capture all the value a guy like Turris provides at 1/8th of the cost. Trading star players and keeping several replacement level players is how you get further from a cup, not closer.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Who's trading for Turris' contract after the year he had?

I'm with you on Bonino+... I thought, for sure, Bonino would be on the way out, perhaps as a token veteran in Ottawa or something. I was told the same thing when I poked around Nashville's board inquiring about Subban before we acquired him.

My best answer to your question is the timeline. Dishing multiple pieces to come up with Duchene's AAV sounds great, but it was probably much more difficult in practice... especially with free agency looming just days after Poile pulled the trigger on Subban.

In fact, in his presser following the trade, Shero acknowledged that the Subban deal was agreed upon several days prior to it actually happening. Ultimately, Poile gave him a ring, and said something to the effect of, "let's do this." I'd bet Poile was conducting last ditch efforts to dump the very packages you listed above, but was unsuccessful.

It would literally be better to trade Turris at a negative value (attach draft picks to him to get a team to take it) than it is to trade Subban for peanuts.

 

[triggrman]

How are three replacement level players forward depth? You can literally claim a guy like Agostino on waivers and capture all the value a guy like Turris provides at 1/8th of the cost. Trading star players and keeping several replacement level players is how you get further from a cup, not closer.

Turris is a 50 pt. 2 way center, he had one off year after an injury. Smith is a consistant 20+ goal scorer. Bonino is a luxury. Subban was replaced by Fabbro, we're good there. Yes, Fabbro is young and very green but he can skate and play defense, 2 things Subban could not do last year.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

It would literally be better to trade Turris at a negative value (attach draft picks to him to get a team to take it) than it is to trade Subban for peanuts.

How the Devils pulled off stunning trade for P.K. Subban

“Going to bed (Friday) night, I said to David Blitzer and Josh Harris, ‘I’m not sure this is going to happen.’ They’ve got some other things going on,” Shero said. “And I appreciate going through the process with Josh and David because I said when the opportunity is right, Josh and David, our managing partners are fantastic, and this was the right time, the right moment. If that was there, we wanted to do it. I appreciate that support.”

I guarantee Turris, Bonino, et al were the "other things" Poile had "going on." I doubt trading Subban on the cheap was their Plan A.

 

[nbwingsfan]

How about keeping Subban and not signing plugs like Turris, Smith, Bonino, Sissons. That's what 15+m right there for Turris. Nashville has too much dead weight to simply point to "Duchene for Subban" as the sole tradeoff they can make.

Smith and Sissons are good players. Turris at the time of signing was considered a good deal. Bonino was questionable but he was a key part to some cup wins.

Unlike the Leafs, Nashville probably didn’t think it was worth giving up a 1st rd pick just to rid themselves of a player (Turris). Subban just had a bad season by his standards and didn’t play like a 1st pairing D and arguably hasn’t since he got to Nashville . $9M for a guy who’s only played like a top 4D for a good portion of the last 3 years is a big pill to swallow.

Obviously Nashville values keeping their depth versus going top heavy.

The players you listed, other than Turris for one season, are far from “dead weight”.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

It would literally be better to trade Turris at a negative value (attach draft picks to him to get a team to take it) than it is to trade Subban for peanuts.

Good trade, or not, Pollie has been trying to trade Subban since the first offseason with them. He wasn't going to stay in Nashville.

 

[triggrman]

Smith and Sissons are good players. Turris at the time of signing was considered a good deal. Bonino was questionable but he was a key part to some cup wins.

Unlike the Leafs, Nashville probably didn’t think it was worth giving up a 1st rd pick just to rid themselves of a player (Turris). Subban just had a bad season by his standards and didn’t play like a 1st pairing D and arguably hasn’t since he got to Nashville . $9M for a guy who’s only played like a top 4D for a good portion of the last 3 years is a big pill to swallow.

Obviously Nashville values keeping their depth versus going top heavy.

The players you listed, other than Turris for one season, are far from “dead weight”.

Not to mention that paying a guy $9M a year to be a number 3 defenseman is not good roster management.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Davies was always the real prize, 2nds are always nice pieces, and Santini was just a contract for them to take back.

It's still an underwhelming return for a guy of Subban's caliber.

 

[triggrman]

Davies was always the real prize, 2nds are always nice pieces, and Santini was just a contract for them to take back.

It's still an underwhelming return for a guy of Subban's caliber.

The question is what is Subban's current caliber? This is not the Subban we traded Weber for.

 

[nbwingsfan]

How are three replacement level players forward depth? You can literally claim a guy like Agostino on waivers and capture all the value a guy like Turris provides at 1/8th of the cost. Trading star players and keeping several replacement level players is how you get further from a cup, not closer.

Your first mistake is thinking an AHL Tweener like Agostino is just as good as a consistent 50pt two way C like Turris or a consistent 20G winger in Smith or a good defensive player like Scissons. Agostino has a career high 36 GAMES

Also if it took a 1st rd pick just to rid the Leafs of one year of Marleau, what do you think it would have cost to rid the Preds of FIVE years of Turris if you think he’s just a 30pt AHL Tweener now?

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Smith and Sissons are good players. Turris at the time of signing was considered a good deal. Bonino was questionable but he was a key part to some cup wins.

Unlike the Leafs, Nashville probably didn’t think it was worth giving up a 1st rd pick just to rid themselves of a player (Turris). Subban just had a bad season by his standards and didn’t play like a 1st pairing D and arguably hasn’t since he got to Nashville . $9M for a guy who’s only played like a top 4D for a good portion of the last 3 years is a big pill to swallow.

Obviously Nashville values keeping their depth versus going top heavy.

The players you listed, other than Turris for one season, are far from “dead weight”.

Turris is horrible and Bonino is as well. There is 9M right there. Subban in his worst season still provides significantly more value than Turris does. He's been overrated for a very long time by any metric you look at and Subban has a long history of being an elite play driver.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Your first mistake is thinking an AHL Tweener like Agostino is just as good as a consistent 50pt two way C like Turris or a consistent 20G winger in Smith or a good defensive player like Scissons. Agostino has a career high 36 GAMES

Also if it took a 1st rd pick just to rid the Leafs of one year of Marleau, what do you think it would have cost to rid the Preds of FIVE years of Turris if you think he’s just a 30pt AHL Tweener now?

Turris was a negative GAR player last season and hasn't been significantly above replacement level for several seasons now. This is why you don't use points to value players. He's a horrible play driver. Horrible.