Confirmed Trade: [NSH/NJD] P.K. Subban traded to Devils for Santini, Davies, 2019 2nd and 2020 2nd Part II

[MMC]

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Part I: Confirmed Trade: - [NSH/NJD] P.K. Subban traded to Devils for Santini, Davies, 2019 2nd and 2020 2nd

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[HabsQC]

It matters when your posts make it seem like you are talking out both sides of your mouth, yes.

I hope you will excuse my english understanding, but I thought talking both side of my mouth would imply a contradiction. What I did was pointing out two similar situations : Two GMs (Shero and Waddell) taking advantage of two other GMs (Dubas and Poile) who were tight against the cap. Now tell me how this is talking both sides of my mouth ?

I'll admit it was a bit of a pleasure that I could use a bad leafs move as an example, but it doesn't make my point any less true. Your hurt feelings and calling me contradictory don't either.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I hope you will excuse my english understanding, but I thought talking both side of my mouth would imply a contradiction. What I did was pointing out two similar situations : Two GMs (Shero and Waddell) taking advantage of two other GMs (Dubas and Poile) who were tight against the cap. Now tell me how this is talking both sides of my mouth ?

I'll admit it was a bit of a pleasure that I could use a bad leafs move as an example, but it doesn't make my point any less true. Your hurt feelings and calling me contradictory don't either.

In one sentence you say "picks and prospects could be anything" and then the next you use an example of trading a pick as a terrible trade. Pick one.

If the absolute worst happened for Toronto, historical data suggests there's a 60% chance they surrender a 0.3 Pt/GP player. If the likely happens, there's about a 45% chance they surrender a 0.2 Pt/GP player. They do so for the ability to sign two 20 goal rookies. Likewise, Nashville is trading with the intention of adding offensive firepower to address their known weakness. You could stick your head in the sand and ignore that but that's what they are doing. The reality is (and you admitted it in your first post I saw) was that you are doing so to try and make yourself feel better about Montreal's trade.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

I'll be excited to watch the Devils this season! PK Subban is a polarizing figure to be sure - he's quite the enigma.

I think it will be a good trade for both sides.

 

[HabsQC]

In one sentence you say "picks and prospects could be anything" and then the next you use an example of trading a pick as a terrible trade. Pick one.

If the absolute worst happened for Toronto, historical data suggests there's a 60% chance they surrender a 0.3 Pt/GP player. If the likely happens, there's about a 45% chance they surrender a 0.2 Pt/GP player. They do so for the ability to sign two 20 goal rookies. Likewise, Nashville is trading with the intention of adding offensive firepower to address their known weakness. You could stick your head in the sand and ignore that but that's what they are doing. The reality is (and you admitted it in your first post I saw) was that you are doing so to try and make yourself feel better about Montreal's trade.

Ok my bad I understand what you mean now !

BUT

Adding a 1st rounder to a cap dump is a terrible trade.

Trading a top dman for picks also is a terrible trade, even worse.

I said 2nd rounders have a high probability of being nothing. A 1st rounder before the season is even played, on the other hand, can become very valuable.

Sadly it doesn't change my feelings towards the Habs-Preds deal. Yet again, I'm laughing real hard at Nashville who had to sell low on Subban. Focussing on the trade itself and not who they might sign or not, this is a very lopsided trade and anyone who is saying the opposite is the one who has his head in the sand.

Preds fans might be very disappointed if they end up not signing Duchene.

 

[Phenomenon13]

Ray Shero proves to be an amazing GM. He just manages to rip other gms off consistently during his tenure with the Devils. I think he's also a firm believer in analytics.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Ok my bad I understand what you mean now !

BUT

Adding a 1st rounder to a cap dump is a terrible trade.

Trading a top dman for picks also is a terrible trade, even worse.

I said 2nd rounders have a high probability of being nothing. A 1st rounder before the season is even played, on the other hand, can become very valuable.

Sadly it doesn't change my feelings towards the Habs-Preds deal. Yet again, I'm laughing real hard at Nashville who had to sell low on Subban. Focussing on the trade itself and not who they might sign or not, this is a very lopsided trade and anyone who is saying the opposite is the one who has his head in the sand.

Preds fans might be very disappointed if they end up not signing Duchene.

Again, I've presented you with the historical data on the likelihoods. Could something be hit out of the park? Sure. Likely? Not historically. You also already know the trade off is two 20 goal rookies. That's almost as many 20 goal scorers as Montreal had on their entire team.

Poile is probably the best GM in the entire game. If he made such a move, don't bet against him already having something lined up.

 

[HabsQC]

Again, I've presented you with the historical data on the likelihoods. Could something be hit out of the park? Sure. Likely? Not historically. You also already know the trade off is two 20 goal rookies. That's almost as many 20 goal scorers as Montreal had on their entire team.

Poile is probably the best GM in the entire game. If he made such a move, don't bet against him already having something lined up.

Poile is probably starting to be overrated if anything. Turris trade and now this. Add the Seth Jones one as well. Even with Duchene in mind, he's on the wrong side of this one. I get what he's trying to do but holy moly is that a brutal trade and it feels like everyone is saying it isn't that bad because Poile is so good.

And for the record he had IMO won the Subban-Weber trade up until the NJ trade. He basically screwed up what he had won back then.

 

[Soundgarden]

Poile is probably starting to be overrated if anything. Turris trade and now this. Add the Seth Jones one as well. Even with Duchene in mind, he's on the wrong side of this one. I get what he's trying to do but holy moly is that a brutal trade and it feels like everyone is saying it isn't that bad because Poile is so good.

And for the record he had IMO won the Subban-Weber trade up until the NJ trade. He basically screwed up what he had won back then.

The Turris trade was fine, Girard would still be a third pairing defenseman if he were in Nashville and apparently Turris was playing with broken ribs as well as a twice broken foot this year. The Turris signing stings though.

Also, it's better if you looked at Subban like a hired gun. He came in, did what he could do and rode off into the sunset, we got some assets for him without retaining anything that's good enough for us.

 

[hockeyfan2k18]

Poile is probably starting to be overrated if anything. Turris trade and now this. Add the Seth Jones one as well. Even with Duchene in mind, he's on the wrong side of this one. I get what he's trying to do but holy moly is that a brutal trade and it feels like everyone is saying it isn't that bad because Poile is so good.

And for the record he had IMO won the Subban-Weber trade up until the NJ trade. He basically screwed up what he had won back then.

Poile's a good GM. But good GM's don't win every trade.

 

[HabsQC]

The Turris trade was fine, Girard would still be a third pairing defenseman if he were in Nashville and apparently Turris was playing with broken ribs as well as a twice broken foot this year. The Turris signing stings though.

Also, it's better if you looked at Subban like a hired gun. He came in, did what he could do and rode off into the sunset, we got some assets for him without retaining anything that's good enough for us.

I like your optimism, but this isn't some fairy tale, this is a business. Poile sold Subban at an all-time low and Turris had 7 goals this year, nuff said.

 

[HabsQC]

Poile's a good GM. But good GM's don't win every trade.

I still think he's a good GM, but I was replying to a poster who said he was probably the best.

 

[greasysnapper]

Poile is probably starting to be overrated if anything. Turris trade and now this. Add the Seth Jones one as well. Even with Duchene in mind, he's on the wrong side of this one. I get what he's trying to do but holy moly is that a brutal trade and it feels like everyone is saying it isn't that bad because Poile is so good.

And for the record he had IMO won the Subban-Weber trade up until the NJ trade. He basically screwed up what he had won back then.

He could have waited 2 years and had to pay to get rid of that contract like the Leafs did with Marleau. At least now he got something, and opened up his teams options.

He said it himself, what he did wasn't a hockey trade, it was a business/cap trade.

 

[member 300185]

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Part I: Confirmed Trade: - [NSH/NJD] P.K. Subban traded to Devils for Santini, Davies, 2019 2nd and 2020 2nd

Talk about butt hurt. Habs have an "Out of town" thread. 37 pages of so called fans moaning about PK traded from Montreal...and also traded again to New Jersey. I haven't seen such upset fans since the Islanders lost JT.

 

[NJ DevLolz]

Ray Shero proves to be an amazing GM. He just manages to rip other gms off consistently during his tenure with the Devils. I think he's also a firm believer in analytics.

He is. Since he began his tenure, the Devils have employed Sunny Mehta, Rachel Doerri, Tyler Dellow, and Matt Cane. Some impressive names for sure

 

[Sens]

Ray Shero proves to be an amazing GM. He just manages to rip other gms off consistently during his tenure with the Devils. I think he's also a firm believer in analytics.

Until Jeremy Davies breakout this year... dudes skating and puck moving ability is elite

The defenseman Tony DeAngelo is becoming in NY, Davies already is

 

[NJ DevLolz]

Edit: wrong thread

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Until Jeremy Davies breakout this year... dudes skating and puck moving ability is elite

The defenseman Tony DeAngelo is becoming in NY, Davies already is

His skating is pretty good for a defensmen, it is not elite. I do love his edgework. It is probably 55 or 60.

 

[Scorcho]

Davies is gonna be a good 2nd pairing D, add in the two picks and the cap relief and Nashville did fine

 

[Bevans]

Ok my bad I understand what you mean now !

BUT

Adding a 1st rounder to a cap dump is a terrible trade.

Trading a top dman for picks also is a terrible trade, even worse.

I said 2nd rounders have a high probability of being nothing. A 1st rounder before the season is even played, on the other hand, can become very valuable.

Sadly it doesn't change my feelings towards the Habs-Preds deal. Yet again, I'm laughing real hard at Nashville who had to sell low on Subban. Focussing on the trade itself and not who they might sign or not, this is a very lopsided trade and anyone who is saying the opposite is the one who has his head in the sand.

Preds fans might be very disappointed if they end up not signing Duchene.

You're writing off what Poile got (cap space) because he hasn't used it yet. Why not apply that same logic to picks and say they're all bad until used as well?

9 million in cap space is an asset. Who knows if NJ would have paid the same price for Weber, or taken him at all. His contract is much more prohibitive to take on.

So far the cap space has scored as exactly as many points as the 2nd round picks that NJ got. I wonder how much longer that remains the case?

 

[Devilsfan118]

Ray Shero proves to be an amazing GM. He just manages to rip other gms off consistently during his tenure with the Devils. I think he's also a firm believer in analytics.

He's a grinder. Just grinds other GMs down in negotiations until he gets what he wants.

 

[yababy]

I still think he's a good GM, but I was replying to a poster who said he was probably the best.

Poole might win small trades, but so far as I can see he's lost every big one

 

[Gh24]

Don't be so quick to judge. Taking a narrow view of it including only the picks and prospects, yes, it was quite a weak return. Looking at the big picture, taking a weak return allows for further moves. If those further moves make us a stronger team in the long run, meaning not only the possible Duchene signing but extensions too, then it's a good trade.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't value cap space this highly and was disappointed in the return. I thought we would get more. I still refuse to call it a bad trade until I see where it leads. For all we know Subban could continue to struggle (even further), Davies become a solid top4 d, our picks become good NHLers and suddenly Poile looks like a wizard again. Or both Davies and Santini are terrible for us, both picks bust, Subban has three Norris level seasons, Duchene signs with someone else and this goes down as a historical **** up. Too early to tell.

 

[Its a Trap]

This was more “out of nowhere” than an rko.

 

[Zezel22]

Davies is gonna be a good 2nd pairing D, add in the two picks and the cap relief and Nashville did fine

Agree - Key here is that he was a 7th Rd pick too. To turn a 7th into a key piece of a trade of this magnitude is a tremendous job.