Confirmed Trade: [NSH/MIN] Mikael Granlund for Kevin Fiala

[AKL]

Fiala's looked as bad, if not worse than everyone else.

Absolute turnover machine.

He has undoubtedly been better than Staal, Parise, Zuccarello, Greenway and Donato. Eriksson Ek, Kunin, Rask are debatable thus far. Koivu, Zucker, Hartman, Foligno have been better.

 

[Bazeek]

He has undoubtedly been better than Staal, Parise, Zuccarello, Greenway and Donato. Eriksson Ek, Kunin, Rask are debatable thus far. Koivu, Zucker, Hartman, Foligno have been better.

That's been more or less my impression so far, though I'd forgotten about Koivu in my original statement. Hartman and Foligno do have the advantage of having a different role and very different expectations, but they've still been better than most of the other forwards.

The complaints about Fiala's turnovers are starting to remind me a lot of the complaints about Dumba's defense.

 

[nt3005]

Atleast Fiala is trying to do something when he turns the puck over. Would rather have that than the guys playing so bad they aren't noticeable. (Parise)

 

[ThatGuy22]

That's been more or less my impression so far, though I'd forgotten about Koivu in my original statement. Hartman and Foligno do have the advantage of having a different role and very different expectations, but they've still been better than most of the other forwards.

The complaints about Fiala's turnovers are starting to remind me a lot of the complaints about Dumba's defense.

Me too... In that people pretend they aren't valid critiques of a players play.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Atleast Fiala is trying to do something when he turns the puck over. Would rather have that than the guys playing so bad they aren't noticeable. (Parise)

Except most of his turnovers are simply caused by him coughing the puck up under pressure from the opposing team. Not trying some slick move to get past a player.

 

[AKL]

Except most of his turnovers are simply caused by him coughing the puck up under pressure from the opposing team. Not trying some slick move to get past a player.

Minnesota fans complain about having a team of boring players that dump and chase and we don’t have anyone with puck skills or anyone that can carry the puck into the zone

Then Minnesota fans complain when we have a guy with puck skills who can carry the puck into the zone and they want to neuter him into a dump and chase player because they didn’t realize that play style has a tendency to “cause more turnovers” than dump and chase players

Man, if it helps, just imagine that every time he turns it over at the blue line trying to get into the zone, he actually dumped it and we didn’t recover it on the forecheck.

 

[Bazeek]

Me too... In that people pretend they aren't valid critiques of a players player.

They're valid critiques that a.) don't apply as often as they're brought up, and b.) seem to completely overshadow the positives that the players bring. Positives that are otherwise mostly lacking among the other players.

The entire forward group is struggling to score and Fiala's one of maybe 3 that's looked dangerous on a semi-regular basis. He needs to use his linemates better* and not just weave himself into bad situations, but the turnovers don't put him in the Staal/Zuccarello/Parise/Donato tier.

*though I'll add that there have been a few times when he's "gotten himself stuck" with a nice zone entry, drawn 3 players to him, looked back... and not actually had anyone to pass to. I don't know if it's line changes or what, but he can't use his linemates if they're still in the neutral zone.

 

[AKL]

They're valid critiques that a.) don't apply as often as they're brought up, and b.) seem to completely overshadow the positives that the players bring. Positives that are otherwise mostly lacking among the other players.

The entire forward group is struggling to score and Fiala's one of maybe 3 that's looked dangerous on a semi-regular basis. He needs to use his linemates better and not just weave himself into bad situations, but the turnovers don't put him in the Staal/Zuccarello/Parise/Donato tier.

He’s also not going to learn to use his linemates better and not just weave himself into bad situations if he’s forced to play dump and chase hockey. That’s not his style. It’s not going to be effective.

 

[Jesus comma Brodin]

Can we burn this thread with fire?

 

[ThatGuy22]

Minnesota fans complain about having a team of boring players that dump and chase and we don’t have anyone with puck skills or anyone that can carry the puck into the zone

Then Minnesota fans complain when we have a guy with puck skills who can carry the puck into the zone and they want to neuter him into a dump and chase player because they didn’t realize that play style has a tendency to “cause more turnovers” than dump and chase players

Man, if it helps, just imagine that every time he turns it over at the blue line trying to get into the zone, he actually dumped it and we didn’t recover it on the forecheck.

They're valid critiques that a.) don't apply as often as they're brought up, and b.) seem to completely overshadow the positives that the players bring. Positives that are otherwise mostly lacking among the other players.

The entire forward group is struggling to score and Fiala's one of maybe 3 that's looked dangerous on a semi-regular basis. He needs to use his linemates better* and not just weave himself into bad situations, but the turnovers don't put him in the Staal/Zuccarello/Parise/Donato tier.

*though I'll add that there have been a few times when he's "gotten himself stuck" with a nice zone entry, drawn 3 players to him, looked back... and not actually had anyone to pass to. I don't know if it's line changes or what, but he can't use his linemates if they're still in the neutral zone.

I'll reply to both at once, as it's the same response.

You two are acting like he's getting great results, or even has great offensive underlying numbers, or atleast is generating opportunities and they aren't going in and people are pointing out his flaws.

We're not talking about Nino when he was minus 12 and Yeo was racking him over the coals despite great underlying numbers.

He's generating zero offense. If you take actual results out of the equation (of which he has none). He's got the the lowest xGF/60 on the Wild. 3rd lowest SCF/60, lowest HDCF/60, etc. So he's not generating offense, he's not a terribly good defensive winger (which doesn't really matter), and he's a turnover machine.

So what would you say he's actually doing out there? He's fast... thats it. He goes really fast before the D gets him pinned and he loses the puck.

 

[AKL]

I'll reply to both at once, as it's the same response.

You two are acting like he's getting great results, or even has great offensive underlying numbers, or atleast is generating opportunities and they aren't going in and people are pointing out his flaws.

We're not talking about Nino when he was minus 12 and Yeo was racking him over the coals despite great underlying numbers.

He's generating zero offense. If you take actual results out of the equation (of which he has none). He's got the the lowest xGF/60 on the Wild. 3rd lowest SCF/60, lowest HDCF/60, etc. So he's not generating offense, he's not a terribly good defensive winger (which doesn't really matter), and he's a turnover machine.

So what would you say he's actually doing out there? He's fast... thats it. He goes really fast before the D gets him pinned and he loses the puck.

The last time he played on a good team he was a 40-50 point player at the age of 21 and 22.

Is that good enough for you to give him the benefit of the doubt for now?

 

[nt3005]

I'll reply to both at once, as it's the same response.

You two are acting like he's getting great results, or even has great offensive underlying numbers, or atleast is generating opportunities and they aren't going in and people are pointing out his flaws.

We're not talking about Nino when he was minus 12 and Yeo was racking him over the coals despite great underlying numbers.

He's generating zero offense. If you take actual results out of the equation (of which he has none). He's got the the lowest xGF/60 on the Wild. 3rd lowest SCF/60, lowest HDCF/60, etc. So he's not generating offense, he's not a terribly good defensive winger (which doesn't really matter), and he's a turnover machine.

So what would you say he's actually doing out there? He's fast... thats it. He goes really fast before the D gets him pinned and he loses the puck.

Hard to find good underlying offensive numbers of a team that hasn't had any offense. But lets just let the veterans play because atleast they are "good in the d zone".
Every time this team drafts a safe two way player people complain about it. But then when players are offensive forwards without an outstanding 2 way game they don't want that.

 

[AKL]

Hard to find good underlying offensive numbers of a team that hasn't had any offense. But lets just let the veterans play because atleast they are "good in the d zone".
Every time this team drafts a safe two way player people complain about it. But then when players are offensive forwards without an outstanding 2 way game they don't want that.

God so much this

 

[Bazeek]

I'll reply to both at once, as it's the same response.

You two are acting like he's getting great results, or even has great offensive underlying numbers, or atleast is generating opportunities and they aren't going in and people are pointing out his flaws.

We're not talking about Nino when he was minus 12 and Yeo was racking him over the coals despite great underlying numbers.

He's generating zero offense. If you take actual results out of the equation (of which he has none). He's got the the lowest xGF/60 on the Wild. 3rd lowest SCF/60, lowest HDCF/60, etc. So he's not generating offense, he's not a terribly good defensive winger (which doesn't really matter), and he's a turnover machine.

So what would you say he's actually doing out there? He's fast... thats it. He goes really fast before the D gets him pinned and he loses the puck.

I'm just talking about my impression of him. No one's been getting good results and a 5 game sample of underlying numbers doesn't mean much either way to me. HDCF and SCF are the numbers that still have Kunin as our best forward, right?

I don't think he's been great or anything, nor has Zucker. But he's not the guy I'd be scratching. The guys I would be scratching are all in the No Touch pile.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Hard to find good underlying offensive numbers of a team that hasn't had any offense. But lets just let the veterans play because atleast they are "good in the d zone".
Every time this team drafts a safe two way player people complain about it. But then when players are offensive forwards without an outstanding 2 way game they don't want that.

It's not that he doesn't have good offensive numbers (underlying or otherwise) on a bad offensive team. It's that he has the worst numbers on a bad offensive team. Those are distinctly different things. He's on the team to produce offense. He's not doing that, and doesnt' really do anything else very well.

So again, what's he doing out there?

 

[nt3005]

It's not that he doesn't have good offensive numbers (underlying or otherwise) on a bad offensive team. It's that he has the worst numbers on a bad offensive team. Those are distinctly different things. He's on the team to produce offense. He's not doing that, and doesnt' really do anything else very well.

So again, what's he doing out there?

Ill skip using the 5 game sample size of a team led in points by Foligno. Again, his underlying numbers would look better if he dumped the puck everytime, but there is no difference between getting into the zone and turning it over and dumping it for the other team to have a clean breakout.

 

[AKL]

It's not that he doesn't have good offensive numbers (underlying or otherwise) on a bad offensive team. It's that he has the worst numbers on a bad offensive team. Those are distinctly different things. He's on the team to produce offense. He's not doing that, and doesnt' really do anything else very well.

So again, what's he doing out there?

So just to clarify, we’re going to ignore the two seasons of 40-50 point play at age 21-22 in favor of 5 games where the entire team has been beyond bad and he hasn’t even been the worst?

 

[ThatGuy22]

So just to clarify, we’re going to ignore the two seasons of 40-50 point play at age 21-22 in favor of 5 games where the entire team has been beyond bad and he hasn’t even been the worst?

Yes, I am open to ignoring the games before he had a serious leg injury he has shown no indication he's come back from(last year or this year), and lot's of indication he's completely scared of contact due to it.

 

[nt3005]

Yes, I am open to ignoring the games before he had a serious leg injury he has shown no indication he's come back from(last year or this year), and lot's of indication he's completely scared of contact due to it.

I'll wait a little longer to make my final decision. I still think chemistry is probably a pretty big issue considering his lack of time with the team and the amount of times the lines change in a week.

 

[AKL]

Yes, I am open to ignoring the games before he had a serious leg injury he has shown no indication he's come back from(last year or this year), and lot's of indication he's completely scared of contact due to it.

Got it.

So, just to be clear, his serious leg injury was April 2017. The 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons are when he was a 40-50 point player. He played 163 games those two seasons.

I’d like to believe this was an honest mistake on your part.

 

[Bazeek]

Yes, I am open to ignoring the games before he had a serious leg injury he has shown no indication he's come back from(last year or this year), and lot's of indication he's completely scared of contact due to it.

I'll second you on the contact thing, at least. I've seen several plays where he seemed to rush a decision because he's running out of room or facing pressure. It wouldn't surprise me if the injury was a factor there, whether it's physical or mental.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Ill skip using the 5 game sample size of a team led in points by Foligno. Again, his underlying numbers would look better if he dumped the puck everytime, but there is no difference between getting into the zone and turning it over and dumping it for the other team to have a clean breakout.

I don't care if he dumps the puck or not, and I fail to see how his stats would look better if he did (unless the team actually did something off those dump ins).

It's a binary question. Is he doing something useful out there? If so, what?

The talk about skill, speed and generalizing about the fanbase , and what they tend to complain about is just deflection.

 

[nt3005]

I don't care if he dumps the puck or not, and I fail to see how his stats would look better if he did (unless the team actually did something off those dump ins).

It's a binary question. Is he doing something useful out there? If so, what?

The talk about skill, speed and generalizing about the fanbase , and what they tend to complain about is just deflection.

So basically you are taking out aggression on 1 player for the teams lack of offense?

 

[ThatGuy22]

Got it.

So, just to be clear, his serious leg injury was April 2017. The 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons are when he was a 40-50 point player. He played 163 games those two seasons.

I’d like to believe this was an honest mistake on your part.

Fair enough, that is my mistake. I thought the leg injury was the playoffs following his 50 point season.

That said, he's shown no indication in his time in Minnesota this year or last year of having that offense. Besides the one game against the preds.

 

[ThatGuy22]

So basically you are taking out aggression on 1 player for the teams lack of offense?

I'm not taking out my aggression on anyone. Fiala's getting scratched, and the conversation started as to why, there are more appropriate players, etc.

Fiala is in perfect position to be scratched, because the one thing he is supposed to do is produce offense. And he's not doing it. If you're not doing the one thing you're paid to do, you're going to get scratched.

Kunin, Greenway, JEE, the rest of the lot aren't doing anything offensively either. But they are relatively solid defensively still.

So the choice is a player not doing anything (offense or defense) vs a player only not doing offense. It's why Donato was the one scratched before him, and if we had basically literally anyone else that could play Center Staal should probably be next on the list of scratches.