GDT: Non-Panthers NFL Discussion (2017 and beyond)

[HisIceness]

Browns have 8 wins, still November

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

Browns have 8 wins, still November

And Falcons just absolutely demolished Raiders. Because... reasons.

Also by beating the Bungles, Giants just moved from 15th place to 4th. Because why not.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

Honey Badger stealing the ball against Tampa. You love to see it.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

Also why the fu^k did they not postpone the Broncos game?

 

[HisIceness]

Also why the fu^k did they not postpone the Broncos game?

Competitive advantage reasons or something.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The NFC East has the ugliest divisional standings I've ever seen in any league in any sport, ever.

How the f are two 4-7 teams tied for the division lead???

 

[HisIceness]

Reminds me of when the Panthers clinched the NFC South w/ a 7-8-1 record after "battling" for the division title with the Falcons who were just as mediocre.

At least that one Chargers team in 2008 or whenever finished 8-8 to win the AFC West. Not much better but not a losing record either. Whoever comes out of the NFC East will probably at best have just 6 wins.

 

[Brock Anton]

Once again, the Bucs lose because Arians, Leftwich and Bowles are f***ing clowns.

I've never seen a team with this much talent be held back by the coaching staff this badly. Who in their right mind thought it was the good idea to cover Tyreek Hill man-to-man with no safety help over the top? Amazing that it took over 200 yards in the FIRST QUARTER from Hill to get Bowles to realize that "hey, maybe I should give Davis some help".

As for the offense, same ridiculous stuff. Constant downfield passes in the first half to nobody. Incredible that they started moving the ball once they committed to an intermediate passing game in the second half. Wow, almost like that's what Brady is good at and if you can establish the run/short pass game, their beloved deep balls become available? Shocking, I know. A 10-year old kid playing Madden would run this offense better.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

Once again, the Bucs lose because Arians, Leftwich and Bowles are f***ing clowns.

I've never seen a team with this much talent be held back by the coaching staff this badly. Who in their right mind thought it was the good idea to cover Tyreek Hill man-to-man with no safety help over the top? Amazing that it took over 200 yards in the FIRST QUARTER from Hill to get Bowles to realize that "hey, maybe I should give Davis some help".

As for the offense, same ridiculous stuff. Constant downfield passes in the first half to nobody. Incredible that they started moving the ball once they committed to an intermediate passing game in the second half. Wow, almost like that's what Brady is good at and if you can establish the run/short pass game, their beloved deep balls become available? Shocking, I know. A 10-year old kid playing Madden would run this offense better.

Ten year old kid would probably be smart enough to let Brady do stuff his way.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Ten year old kid would probably be smart enough to let Brady do stuff his way.

Ten year old kid would be smart enough not to leave Bill Belichick for Bruce Arians.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

Ten year old kid would be smart enough not to leave Bill Belichick for Bruce Arians.

That was obviously a "take that Dad" move from Brady.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Ten year old kid would be smart enough not to leave Bill Belichick for Bruce Arians.

Conversely, a ten year old kid would be smart enough to make sure Tom Brady doesn't leave in favor of Cam Newton. Tom Brady: 7-5; Bill Belichick: 5-6

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Reminds me of when the Panthers clinched the NFC South w/ a 7-8-1 record after "battling" for the division title with the Falcons who were just as mediocre.

At least that one Chargers team in 2008 or whenever finished 8-8 to win the AFC West. Not much better but not a losing record either. Whoever comes out of the NFC East will probably at best have just 6 wins.

Seahawks are the only other team to make the playoffs with a losing record -- I believe in 2010 or 2011? They went 7-9 (so we weren't the worst team to make the playoffs at 7-8-1 a few years ago...) and that was the year they beat the Aints in the playoffs with Marshawn Lynch's beast mode run. We also won a playoff game the year we made it with a losing record -- against the Cardinals who had no QB. I think we actually set a record that game for the lower number of yards allowed in a playoff game that could very well stand for a long long time (partly aided by an attempt on the last play to do a bunch of laterals which I think lost them another 20+ yards or something...) So losing record playoff teams are undefeated in the first round as of now...

Looking at the schedules for the rest of the NFC East, I would be absolutely shocked if any of those teams wound up with 7 wins so the winner will almost certainly set the record for worst record to make the playoffs. I'm kinda thinking that the Cowboys win the division. But I can't imagine the winner continues the trend of losing record playoff teams winning their first game.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

The NFC East has the ugliest divisional standings I've ever seen in any league in any sport, ever.

How the f are two 4-7 teams tied for the division lead???

Because they all have to play each other, so you can't have multiple 0-11 teams tied for the lead.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Conversely, a ten year old kid would be smart enough to make sure Tom Brady doesn't leave in favor of Cam Newton. Tom Brady: 7-5; Bill Belichick: 5-6

It wasn’t really up to the Pats. Brady wanted to go so he left.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It wasn’t really up to the Pats. Brady wanted to go so he left.

While ultimately, you're right it's Brady's decision to leave, there's much more to it than that, as there is with any parting of ways. If they wanted to keep him, they could have made attempts to do so and more importantly, worked to put a competitive enough team around him long before it got to the point where Brady made up his mind. I get that it's a business, but the talent bleed out of NE over the years was reportedly the big reason why Brady wanted to leave. Gronk (retired but the team tried to trade him to Detroit reportedly), Amendola, Bennett, Lewis, etc...

If Brady made up his mind a few years ago that he was leaving after his contract was up, you are right, it wasn't up to the Pats. The impression I get from when this went down is that the Pats let the talent slip away to the point where Brady felt he needed to leave. I get that all good things come to an end, but IMO, the Pats weren't just a bystander in this.

 

[A Star is Burns]

While ultimately, you're right it's Brady's decision to leave, there's much more to it than that, as there is with any parting of ways. If they wanted to keep him, they could have made attempts to do so and more importantly, worked to put a competitive enough team around him long before it got to the point where Brady made up his mind. I get that it's a business, but the talent bleed out of NE over the years was reportedly the big reason why Brady wanted to leave. Gronk (retired but the team tried to trade him to Detroit reportedly), Amendola, Bennett, Lewis, etc...

If Brady made up his mind a few years ago that he was leaving after his contract was up, you are right, it wasn't up to the Pats. The impression I get from when this went down is that the Pats let the talent slip away to the point where Brady felt he needed to leave. I get that all good things come to an end, but IMO, the Pats weren't just a bystander in this.

You're not entirely wrong. But most of those guys really got deals and roles that wouldn't have been a fit for the Patriots anymore. It's also worth noting they spent a 1st round pick on a WR for the first time, put up with Josh Gordon's shit as long as they could, and signed Brown to try to correct for that talent loss, and spent firsts on RB and OT as well. They tried to replace those guys and appease Brady. The moves just didn't work out. And eventually, we just ran out of cap space to even realistically try.

By the time everything went down, I think both sides were fine to move on. In spite of their struggles, the Bucs have talent and a shot. In spite of the Pats struggles, they have a shit ton of cap space next year and got to start the rebuild a bit. Brady and Belichick are still a couple of the best to do their jobs, but certainly lesser without each other. But it was a hell of a run.

 

[tarheelhockey]

While ultimately, you're right it's Brady's decision to leave, there's much more to it than that, as there is with any parting of ways. If they wanted to keep him, they could have made attempts to do so and more importantly, worked to put a competitive enough team around him long before it got to the point where Brady made up his mind. I get that it's a business, but the talent bleed out of NE over the years was reportedly the big reason why Brady wanted to leave. Gronk (retired but the team tried to trade him to Detroit reportedly), Amendola, Bennett, Lewis, etc...

If Brady made up his mind a few years ago that he was leaving after his contract was up, you are right, it wasn't up to the Pats. The impression I get from when this went down is that the Pats let the talent slip away to the point where Brady felt he needed to leave. I get that all good things come to an end, but IMO, the Pats weren't just a bystander in this.

From all I've heard, the Pats intended to re-sign him this year. Brady unilaterally made the choice to walk away. Per Joe Montana, who got it straight from Brady, it had a lot to do with the team not following Brady's "advice" to the coaches about how to run the offense.

That organization achieved 20 consecutive years of Super Bowl contention, which is supposed to be impossible in a salary capped, entry drafting league. Brady has been the one QB in football history with the opportunity to play in that environment for his entire career. He hits the farewell-tour stage, they slip out of contention for one year, he gets petulant about not being allowed to basically coach the team, and that's what it takes for him to walk away? I dunno, it's just a gross way to go into retirement. A bit like Jerry Rice going to the Raiders at the end, but kind of worse in its own way because at least the Niners were trying to push Rice into unwanted retirement.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

From all I've heard, the Pats intended to re-sign him this year. Brady unilaterally made the choice to walk away. Per Joe Montana, who got it straight from Brady, it had a lot to do with the team not following Brady's "advice" to the coaches about how to run the offense.

Right. That and not providing the weapons to run the offense. This is consistent with what I heard and what I was talking about. If they really were set on keeping him, you make it so he has the tools and system to be productive. If not, you are giving him the option of not wanting to stay. Like I said, it wasn't just Brady walking away because he wanted to, there were factors that the Patriots contributed to that helped with that decision.

That organization achieved 20 consecutive years of Super Bowl contention, which is supposed to be impossible in a salary capped, entry drafting league. Brady has been the one QB in football history with the opportunity to play in that environment for his entire career. He hits the farewell-tour stage, they slip out of contention for one year, he gets petulant about not being allowed to basically coach the team, and that's what it takes for him to walk away? I dunno, it's just a gross way to go into retirement. A bit like Jerry Rice going to the Raiders at the end, but kind of worse in its own way because at least the Niners were trying to push Rice into unwanted retirement.

There are two ways to view this. The other is that Brady is up there in age where it's much harder to prepare mentally and physically for a season, so if the team you are on isn't providing you a chance to compete for a super bowl and is playing an offensive style that doesn't suit you, and isn't providing the weapons to be as effective, then why stay? I guarantee you that if Brady's skills had diminished so badly that he couldn't play, the Patriots wouldn't hesitate to move on from him and people wouldn't view it as "petulant" at all.

And let's be honest, star QBs almost always kind of "coach" the offense and get unhappy if the style doesn't suit them, regardless of what we think. As a Packer's fan, Brett Favre was that way and Aaron Rodgers is even more that way.

Anyhow, I don't see it as Patriots hands were tied and there was nothing they could do about it. It took two to tango here.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You're not entirely wrong. But most of those guys really got deals and roles that wouldn't have been a fit for the Patriots anymore. It's also worth noting they spent a 1st round pick on a WR for the first time, put up with Josh Gordon's shit as long as they could, and signed Brown to try to correct for that talent loss, and spent firsts on RB and OT as well. They tried to replace those guys and appease Brady. The moves just didn't work out. And eventually, we just ran out of cap space to even realistically try.

By the time everything went down, I think both sides were fine to move on. In spite of their struggles, the Bucs have talent and a shot. In spite of the Pats struggles, they have a shit ton of cap space next year and got to start the rebuild a bit. Brady and Belichick are still a couple of the best to do their jobs, but certainly lesser without each other. But it was a hell of a run.

Yep. Agree completely.

Patriots longevity came because they were able to let go of guys that priced themselves out and replace them with other options that were just as effective. When they failed on that (as you showed above) is when they struggled.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Let's also not put all of this on the Patriots. Brady would only work with certain receivers, especially as the years went on. He has a more strict definition of "trust" than any other QB (and sure, he's earned that right). He didn't have much interest in developing the weapons they tried to provide him. He also got to the point where he wanted to come late to camp and not be involved in any of the earlier off-season stuff. Again, he probably "earned" that right, but it probably had negative impacts. There were also a lot of people that found friction with his personal trainer and TB12 stuff. He was very mopey last year, when as I said, they really did try to provide him with weapons and it just didn't work out. He was a bit of a sad sack even when we were 8-0. He took some heat from NE fans and media at times last year for that (relatively mild heat, but it was talked about). Then, there are all the behind the scenes stuff, which I tend to not believe or think are exaggerated, about the relationships between Kraft, Brady, and Belichick.

I wish both sides had done a better job of working it out but it probably was the way it had to go given the issues on both sides by the end. I think a lot of little things added up and then we couldn't really afford to pay him what he wanted and deserved at this point and give him the weapons he needed.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Let's also not put all of this on the Patriots. Brady would only work with certain receivers, especially as the years went on. He has a more strict definition of "trust" than any other QB (and sure, he's earned that right). He didn't have much interest in developing the weapons they tried to provide him. He also got to the point where he wanted to come late to camp and not be involved in any of the earlier off-season stuff. Again, he probably "earned" that right, but it probably had negative impacts. There were also a lot of people that found friction with his personal trainer and TB12 stuff. He was very mopey last year, when as I said, they really did try to provide him with weapons and it just didn't work out. He was a bit of a sad sack even when we were 8-0. He took some heat from NE fans and media at times last year for that (relatively mild heat, but it was talked about). Then, there are all the behind the scenes stuff, which I tend to not believe or think are exaggerated, about the relationships between Kraft, Brady, and Belichick.

I wish both sides had done a better job of working it out but it probably was the way it had to go given the issues on both sides by the end. I think a lot of little things added up and then we couldn't really afford to pay him what he wanted and deserved at this point and give him the weapons he needed.

If it comes across that way, it wasn't my intention. My view was that both parties played a role in him leaving.

I've been lucky to be a Packer's fan where we've had only 2 starting QBs since 1992, but both of them are/were a bit of a prima donna, Rodgers more-so than Favre. Favre thought he could complete every pass and would make some of the dumbest throws at the worst times and no coach could cure him of that (although Holmgren at least contained it a bit). It's why he has so many interceptions.

Rodgers is notorious for not working with receivers until he fully "trusts" them and has been known to take a sack rather than an incompletion and not getting along with coaches/O coordinators. It kind of goes with the territory with start QBs.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Right. That and not providing the weapons to run the offense. This is consistent with what I heard and what I was talking about. If they really were set on keeping him, you make it so he has the tools and system to be productive. If not, you are giving him the option of not wanting to stay. Like I said, it wasn't just Brady walking away because he wanted to, there were factors that the Patriots contributed to that helped with that decision.



There are two ways to view this. The other is that Brady is up there in age where it's much harder to prepare mentally and physically for a season, so if the team you are on isn't providing you a chance to compete for a super bowl and is playing an offensive style that doesn't suit you, and isn't providing the weapons to be as effective, then why stay? I guarantee you that if Brady's skills had diminished so badly that he couldn't play, the Patriots wouldn't hesitate to move on from him and people wouldn't view it as "petulant" at all.

And let's be honest, star QBs almost always kind of "coach" the offense and get unhappy if the style doesn't suit them, regardless of what we think. As a Packer's fan, Brett Favre was that way and Aaron Rodgers is even more that way.

Anyhow, I don't see it as Patriots hands were tied and there was nothing they could do about it. It took two to tango here.

For Tom Brady to say the New England Patriots didn't give him the tools and system to be successful...

At the end of the day it's a business, he's a free agent, he can play wherever he can find a contract, it's all within his rights.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

Who cares about this nonsense anyway. Browns are possibly a 1-4 or 2-3 away from play-off spot.

And Jets still have a shot at perfect season.

Not to mention this NFC East thing.

...

Teenage son finally leaving his Dad? We’ve seen that thousand times.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Who cares about this nonsense anyway. Browns are possibly a 2-4 or 3-3 away from play-off spot.

And Jets still have a shot at perfect season.

Not to mention this NFC East thing.

...

Teenage son finally leaving his Dad? We’ve seen that thousand times.

There are a lot of interesting storylines in this ****ed up year/season. I really am rooting hard for the Browns and I think they will make it. I hate that they finally put it together again in a year where few or no fans can be involved. Happened with a few baseball teams that ended long droughts this year as well. Imagine not getting that Mrazek moment when we finally clinched the playoffs again or that emotional ass-whooping of Washington in game 3 in front of a jacked-up crowd.

I hate the Steelers, and I don't think they have played quite as well as their record indicates, but being undefeated this late is always a story.

The NFC is a tragic comedy. It's so bad. Can't count anybody out of it. I'd like to see the Football Team come through because of the Alex Smith comeback.

And, of course, the Chiefs continue to be a fun team to watch. Too bad their best receiver is a POS.