OT: Non-Hockey Sports Thread XI - Defense? Who Needs Defense?! (Wade Wilson Memorial Edition)

[TaLoN]

Time for a new thread...

Here was the old...

OT: - Non-Hockey Sports Thread X - The Search is on! (Scramblin' Fran Edition)

Old thread -> OT: - Non-Hockey Sports Thread IX - Let's Go Bowling! (Two-Minute Tommy Edition) Continue...

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[TaLoN]

 

[TaLoN]

Interesting situation he was in...

Army's Andre Carter II back on track for 2023 NFL Draft after President Joe Biden signs revised bill

Now that President Joe Biden has signed the 2023 omnibus appropriations bill, one coveted edge-rushing prospect can breathe a sigh of relief. Eric Edholm explains why Army's Andre Carter II, a possible top-50 pick in the 2023 NFL Draft, is one step closer

www.nfl.com

 

[TaLoN]

Interesting bit on Jalen Hall:

https://www.si.com/fannation/bringmethesports/vikings/why-the-vikings-wanted-quarterback-jaren-hall

More on Hall...

5 reasons BYU QB Jaren Hall will excite Vikings fans

There is a lot to like about the Minnesota Vikings’ selection of BYU QB Jaren Hall. @TheKevinFielder highlights five reasons why.

vikingswire.usatoday.com

 

[Wild11MN]

The notable things to me in those two articles are that his accuracy is "serviceable", and his arm strength improved a little bit from "serviceable". No reason to think he's ever more than a backup.

 

[TaLoN]

The notable things to me in those two articles are that his accuracy is "serviceable", and his arm strength improved a little bit from "serviceable". No reason to think he's ever more than a backup.

They went as far as saying arm-strength is a plus.

That said, even Brady had similar comments on his scouting report. Sub-par arm strength, serviceable accuracy. These guys go late, because they're expected to be backups. Developmental QB's sometimes surprise though.

Example, look at Brock Purdy's scouting profile/career outlook. Nobody was high on this guy and now he's basically got the 49'ers looking to move Lance...

2022 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Brock Purdy – WalterFootball

walterfootball.com

Expecially loved this line...

He is not the dual-threat type who is en vogue in the NFL, and his ability to avoid defenders is going to get exposed further by the speed and athleticism of professionals.

Oops!

 

[TaLoN]

 

[Spurgeon]

2 TNF games doesn’t sound very wise for player health.

 

[TaLoN]

2 TNF games doesn’t sound very wise for player health.

They need LESS TNF games, not MORE

 

[TaLoN]

 

[TaLoN]

Browns agree to acquire Pro Bowl defensive end Za'Darius Smith from Vikings, AP source says

The Browns' defensive line has gone from disappointing to perhaps dominant. Cleveland, which has spent the offseason upgrading a unit that underperformed in 2022, agreed Friday night to acquire three-time Pro Bowl pass rusher Za'Darius Smith from the Minnesota Vikings, a person familiar with...

www.yahoo.com

The Cleveland Browns have agreed to acquire three-time Pro Bowl pass rusher Za'Darius Smith from the Minnesota Vikings, a person familiar with the deal told the Associated Press on Friday night.

The Browns are sending fifth-round picks in 2024 and 2025 to the Vikings for Smith, a sixth-round pick in 2025 and a seventh-rounder in 2026, said the person, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the teams had not announced the swap.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

I saw a suggestion of a 4th for cook. Didn’t know his value was considered to be so low.

 

[Wild11MN]

I saw a suggestion of a 4th for cook. Didn’t know his value was considered to be so low.

That's just the value of older NFL players. I agree, it feels low. It's just always been that way, probably because you can always just draft someone for much cheaper.

 

[Sad People]

I saw a suggestion of a 4th for cook. Didn’t know his value was considered to be so low.

From what ive read we are retaining salary to make it work so i cant help but feel like we should of gotten a little more back from the Browns. Slight L but we gain a little draft capital to hopefully move up next year.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

That's just the value of older NFL players. I agree, it feels low. It's just always been that way, probably because you can always just draft someone for much cheaper.

From what ive read we are retaining salary to make it work so i cant help but feel like we should have gotten a little more back from the Browns. Slight L but we gain a little draft capital to hopefully move up next year.

Yeah with how quickly players drafted step and in fill shoes I suppose even jj would only fetch us a first or so. Weird to say but it’s probably true

 

[Sad People]

Yeah with how quickly players drafted step and in fill shoes I suppose even jj would only fetch us a first or so. Weird to say but it’s probably true

The return Tyreek Hill got is where the compensation would start.

 

[Digitalbooya]

I feel like the vikings are going to be bad this year outside of passing offense. I could see Detroit winning the division. Reality is upside down

 

[Sad People]

I feel like the vikings are going to be bad this year outside of passing offense. I could see Detroit winning the division. Reality is upside down

Will we win 13 games this year? No. But i dont see us taking that big of a step back. 9-10 win team id bet.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Will we win 13 games this year? No. But i dont see us taking that big of a step back. 9-10 win team id bet.

I don’t see it. I’ve got

Lions (12 wins)
Packers (10 wins)
Vikings (7 wins)
Bears (7 wins)

It doesn’t feel like anyone fully addressed their major weakness. GB is probably the closest, but they have have another weakness that is pretty large.

Lions are the best bet after their turnaround last year. Seemed to address some of their front 7, but they still need more. Taking a RB with their top pick was an interesting move.

Packers dumped five picks into their biggest weakness: pass catchers. Improved the pass rush a bit with Van Ness, who is supposedly similar to the Watt brothers. The problem at safety still hasn’t been addressed. To make matters worse, this draft was weak on safety and the packers traded down when they could have selected Brian Branch at 45. That trade was with Detroit I might add

Vikings have one of the worst defenses in the league. Yet they use their top pick, and only pick in the first two rounds, on a wide receiver? A clear position of strength. They selected one CB and one S in the 3rd and 4th rounds. Feels like they need at least 1-2 more defensive backs, probably a linebacker and at least one edge rusher. I do think that signing Dean Lowry was a good move. Byron Murphy too, if he can stay healthy.

Bears have a ton of young pieces. They need a little bit of cohesion and quality coaching. I’m not sold on Justin Fields, but maybe he can work out for them.

 

[Sad People]

I don’t see it. I’ve got

Lions (12 wins)
Packers (10 wins)
Vikings (7 wins)
Bears (7 wins)

It doesn’t feel like anyone fully addressed their major weakness. GB is probably the closest, but they have have another weakness that is pretty large.

Lions are the best bet after their turnaround last year. Seemed to address some of their front 7, but they still need more. Taking a RB with their top pick was an interesting move.

Packers dumped five picks into their biggest weakness: pass catchers. Improved the pass rush a bit with Van Ness, who is supposedly similar to the Watt brothers. The problem at safety still hasn’t been addressed. To make matters worse, this draft was weak on safety and the packers traded down when they could have selected Brian Branch at 45. That trade was with Detroit I might add

Vikings have one of the worst defenses in the league. Yet they use their top pick, and only pick in the first two rounds, on a wide receiver? A clear position of strength. They selected one CB and one S in the 3rd and 4th rounds. Feels like they need at least 1-2 more defensive backs, probably a linebacker and at least one edge rusher. I do think that signing Dean Lowry was a good move. Byron Murphy too, if he can stay healthy.

Bears have a ton of young pieces. They need a little bit of cohesion and quality coaching. I’m not sold on Justin Fields, but maybe he can work out for them.

I dont see how the Packers improve upon their record when they downgrade massively at QB. I dont see it at all. Packers are already telling people to be "patient" with Love, and its May, thats not good when hes in year 4. Now he could come out of the gate do pretty well with that schedule yall have in the first like 6 weeks of the year but that will change once teams get tape on him and figure out what he can and cant do. It happened to Herbert his rookie year, itll happen to Love.

I also dont really see how any of the pass catchers yall have drafted help improve your team atleast in the immediate future which is what were talking about. The Packers have had like one WR in their entire history whos sub 6 foot 1 whos done something and thats Randall Cobb and he had Rodgers throwing him the ball. The 2 TEs yall have drafted have a combined 146 catches in 8 years between the 2 of them, i wouldnt expect much help from them in year 1. Quantity over quality doesnt always mean you will hit, look at Slick Rick. Heck even look at your defense, yall have invested like 7 or 8 recent FRPs in it and its still pretty darn mediocre.

Taking a CB in round 1 wouldnt vastly improve the unit as a whole either. You dont need a number one ranked defense in the league to do well but you do need a top flight offense. Its a scoring league and weve got one of the best offense in the league and we made it better with the addition of JA, Rams and Chiefs the past 2 years are good examples of it, both those teams had like the 15th and 16th ranked defenses in the league when they won the SB. Were 1 injury to JJ away from having the WR core be a position of strength to it being the worst in the league. The Chiefs continue to draft and trade for WRs even though that entire offense and passing game is their strength, the Eagles have spent 3 FRPs in the last 2 years on the defensive line when its considered their strength. What we did isnt unorthodox.

People are fixating on us not taking a CB in round 1 too much and believe we "ignored" the defense and are overlooking the fact that we got rid of Donatell, who doesnt even have a job in the league right now, for Brian Flores. People who didnt watch every game dont realize how bad Donatell was last year for us and rightfully so i wouldnt expect people who arent fans of the Vikings to watch the games. He ran the same 2 high safety shell coverage, with soft zone coverage underneath ALL YEAR, week in and week out the same exact thing it was brutal. I remember fans would get excited and almost shocked when Donatell would blitz, We invested heavily in the defense in last years draft with 5 of the first 6 picks being defense. We still cant get another edge rusher out there in FA, theres surprisingly some pretty nice pieces out there in Leonard Floyd, Yannick Ngakoue and Justin Houston. That other edge rusher also came in the form of UDFA Andre Carter whos built like a OLB in a 34 scheme. Coach said it himself that its like "getting another draft pick".

With all this said do i think we will win the SB next year? No, not at all. Do i think we will win 13 games next year with the schedule we have? No, not at all, we play a lot of top flight QBs. Truth be told i expect its anyones division to win BUT the Vikings with the schedule we have. Like i said I expect us to be fighting for a WC spot which is around 8-10 wins. The Bears with that schedule should be a playoff team, if they arent Fields aint it. Agreed on the Lions they should win the division but they still have to go out there and do it. Jared Goff playing at home vs playing on the road are vastly players.

 

[Digitalbooya]

I dont see how the Packers improve upon their record when they downgrade massively at QB. I dont see it at all. Packers are already telling people to be "patient" with Love, and its May, thats not good when hes in year 4. Now he could come out of the gate do pretty well with that schedule yall have in the first like 6 weeks of the year but that will change once teams get tape on him and figure out what he can and cant do. It happened to Herbert his rookie year, itll happen to Love.

I also dont really see how any of the pass catchers yall have drafted help improve your team atleast in the immediate future which is what were talking about. The Packers have had like one WR in their entire history whos sub 6 foot 1 whos done something and thats Randall Cobb and he had Rodgers throwing him the ball. The 2 TEs yall have drafted have a combined 146 catches in 8 years between the 2 of them, i wouldnt expect much help from them in year 1. Quantity over quality doesnt always mean you will hit, look at Slick Rick. Heck even look at your defense, yall have invested like 7 or 8 recent FRPs in it and its still pretty darn mediocre.

Taking a CB in round 1 wouldnt vastly improve the unit as a whole either. You dont need a number one ranked defense in the league to do well but you do need a top flight offense. Its a scoring league and weve got one of the best offense in the league and we made it better with the addition of JA, Rams and Chiefs the past 2 years are good examples of it, both those teams had like the 15th and 16th ranked defenses in the league when they won the SB. Were 1 injury to JJ away from having the WR core be a position of strength to it being the worst in the league. The Chiefs continue to draft and trade for WRs even though that entire offense and passing game is their strength, the Eagles have spent 3 FRPs in the last 2 years on the defensive line when its considered their strength. What we did isnt unorthodox.

People are fixating on us not taking a CB in round 1 too much and believe we "ignored" the defense and are overlooking the fact that we got rid of Donatell, who doesnt even have a job in the league right now, for Brian Flores. People who didnt watch every game dont realize how bad Donatell was last year for us and rightfully so i wouldnt expect people who arent fans of the Vikings to watch the games. He ran the same 2 high safety shell coverage, with soft zone coverage underneath ALL YEAR, week in and week out the same exact thing it was brutal. I remember fans would get excited and almost shocked when Donatell would blitz, We invested heavily in the defense in last years draft with 5 of the first 6 picks being defense. We still cant get another edge rusher out there in FA, theres surprisingly some pretty nice pieces out there in Leonard Floyd, Yannick Ngakoue and Justin Houston. That other edge rusher also came in the form of UDFA Andre Carter whos built like a OLB in a 34 scheme. Coach said it himself that its like "getting another draft pick".

With all this said do i think we will win the SB next year? No, not at all. Do i think we will win 13 games next year with the schedule we have? No, not at all, we play a lot of top flight QBs. Truth be told i expect its anyones division to win BUT the Vikings with the schedule we have. Like i said I expect us to be fighting for a WC spot which is around 8-10 wins. The Bears with that schedule should be a playoff team, if they arent Fields aint it. Agreed on the Lions they should win the division but they still have to go out there and do it. Jared Goff playing at home vs playing on the road are vastly players.

Love came in this year and looked more impactful during the Eagles game than Rodgers did. I think the Packers organization is trying to temper the "generational talent" expectations some people have on for him. I fully expect him to look and play just fine. Last year Aaron Rodgers didn't look anywhere near MVP quality. It almost felt like he was just there to give 75% and collect his check. No 300+ yard passing games. Down the stretch, when the Packers were winning games, they were taking the ball out of Rodgers' hand and putting it into Aaron Jones' and AJ Dillon's hands. The offense lived and died by how well the running backs did. Look at the game against the Vikings, their only blowout of the entire year. They had more rushing yards than passing yards and the defense/special teams were tremendous.

Both Watson and Doubs missed a number of games. It felt like they were almost never on the field together last year. They need to be healthy alongside Reed. I have faith in them. The tight ends will be fine. Both are quality in their own right, they just need to remain healthy for the entire year. It's not like college stats are the end all be all, a lot of college teams play upperclassmen over younger players. I think the Packers usually draft more based on the player's athletic score than their stats.

A #1 CB can make a world of a difference to a defense. Jaire Alexander says hello. Just like WR JSN could have been a huge pickup for the packers offense. I think I saw someone reasoning that a rusher like Van Ness wouldn't be around in round 2, but there would be a ton of receivers/tight ends throughout the draft. I get why the Packers did what they did, but I don't have to agree with it. If I was a Vikings fan, I wouldn't agree with what they did. You don't fix a bottom 5 defense with 3rd/4th round picks. You need some difference makers.

 

[TaLoN]

I

Love came in this year and looked more impactful during the Eagles game than Rodgers did. I think the Packers organization is trying to temper the "generational talent" expectations some people have on for him. I fully expect him to look and play just fine. Last year Aaron Rodgers didn't look anywhere near MVP quality. It almost felt like he was just there to give 75% and collect his check. No 300+ yard passing games. Down the stretch, when the Packers were winning games, they were taking the ball out of Rodgers' hand and putting it into Aaron Jones' and AJ Dillon's hands. The offense lived and died by how well the running backs did. Look at the game against the Vikings, their only blowout of the entire year. They had more rushing yards than passing yards and the defense/special teams were tremendous.

Both Watson and Doubs missed a number of games. It felt like they were almost never on the field together last year. They need to be healthy alongside Reed. I have faith in them. The tight ends will be fine. Both are quality in their own right, they just need to remain healthy for the entire year. It's not like college stats are the end all be all, a lot of college teams play upperclassmen over younger players. I think the Packers usually draft more based on the player's athletic score than their stats.

A #1 CB can make a world of a difference to a defense. Jaire Alexander says hello. Just like WR JSN could have been a huge pickup for the packers offense. I think I saw someone reasoning that a rusher like Van Ness wouldn't be around in round 2, but there would be a ton of receivers/tight ends throughout the draft. I get why the Packers did what they did, but I don't have to agree with it. If I was a Vikings fan, I wouldn't agree with what they did. You don't fix a bottom 5 defense with 3rd/4th round picks. You need some difference makers.

I agree on the Packers, people are sleeping on Love. Rodgers was one of the reasons the Packers struggled much of the season. I think they get at least the same as they got from Rodgers last year from Love, possibly even quite a bit more.

 

[57special]

I could be wrong, but i think that the Packers in general are breathing a sigh of relief that Rodgers is gone. I am not sure if that will result in better play on the field, but i wouldn't be surprised.

I am not optimistic about the Vikings this year. They seem to be half pregnant.

 

[Sad People]

Love came in this year and looked more impactful during the Eagles game than Rodgers did. I think the Packers organization is trying to temper the "generational talent" expectations some people have on for him. I fully expect him to look and play just fine. Last year Aaron Rodgers didn't look anywhere near MVP quality. It almost felt like he was just there to give 75% and collect his check. No 300+ yard passing games. Down the stretch, when the Packers were winning games, they were taking the ball out of Rodgers' hand and putting it into Aaron Jones' and AJ Dillon's hands. The offense lived and died by how well the running backs did. Look at the game against the Vikings, their only blowout of the entire year. They had more rushing yards than passing yards and the defense/special teams were tremendous.

Both Watson and Doubs missed a number of games. It felt like they were almost never on the field together last year. They need to be healthy alongside Reed. I have faith in them. The tight ends will be fine. Both are quality in their own right, they just need to remain healthy for the entire year. It's not like college stats are the end all be all, a lot of college teams play upperclassmen over younger players. I think the Packers usually draft more based on the player's athletic score than their stats.

A #1 CB can make a world of a difference to a defense. Jaire Alexander says hello. Just like WR JSN could have been a huge pickup for the packers offense. I think I saw someone reasoning that a rusher like Van Ness wouldn't be around in round 2, but there would be a ton of receivers/tight ends throughout the draft. I get why the Packers did what they did, but I don't have to agree with it. If I was a Vikings fan, I wouldn't agree with what they did. You don't fix a bottom 5 defense with 3rd/4th round picks. You need some difference makers.

People consider Love a generational talent? Or am i not reading that correctly? Because thats new to me if they do. Patrick Mahomes is a generation talent not Jordan Love. Packer fans are in a serious reality check if they think hes a generation talent or that phrase gets thrown around way too often.

I get it youre a Packer fan all youve ever know is HOF level QB play yall have been spoiled and extremely fortunate to witness it but Love is not going to be anything special, Welcome to mediocrity. Yall arent going to hit on b2b2b QBs when the Broncos have been trying to replace Elway since the 90s, the Dolphins have been trying to replace Marino since then too, its not happening. The Bears have been around for over a hundred years and their best QB has been what Jay Cutler? Best you can hope for is a mediocre at best QB, A Kirk Cousins, Ryan Tannehill level player and that what Love is going to be if youre lucky. Doesnt mean you can win some games with him but hes not going to become some elite talent.

Its one game. I wouldnt put too much stock into that since its a small sample size. Matt Flynn is a perfect example, he ended up getting beat out by a 3rd round QB because Russ came in and they saw what they had in him. Again the Packers and Matt LaFleur are already preaching patience to their fans and its year 4, in May, thats not good man. They wouldnt be saying that or letting that stuff come out of their franchise if they knew he was going to be such a good QB.

Yes, Jaire has been pretty good but again go back to what i said in my earlier post, even with Jaire saying hello that defense has still been mediocre.

Yeah well im not really on that side of the fence. The Vikings addressed a huge need this offseason and that was the DC position. Genuine question but if the Vikings would of kept Donatell and taken a CB round 1 would you think the Vikings ignored their issues or would you consider it a success? Because i dont. Id much rather have JA and Flores than Donatell and a CB in round 1. For what its worth Blackmon was one of Flores guys too, he absolutely loves him.

I could be wrong, but i think that the Packers in general are breathing a sigh of relief that Rodgers is gone. I am not sure if that will result in better play on the field, but i wouldn't be surprised.

I am not optimistic about the Vikings this year. They seem to be half pregnant.

Of course theyre happy hes gone! How can you not with his narcissistic attitude.

 

[Digitalbooya]

People consider Love a generational talent? Or am i not reading that correctly? Because thats new to me if they do. Patrick Mahomes is a generation talent not Jordan Love. Packer fans are in a serious reality check if they think hes a generation talent or that phrase gets thrown around way too often.

I get it youre a Packer fan all youve ever know is HOF level QB play yall have been spoiled and extremely fortunate to witness it but Love is not going to be anything special, Welcome to mediocrity. Yall arent going to hit on b2b2b QBs when the Broncos have been trying to replace Elway since the 90s, the Dolphins have been trying to replace Marino since then too, its not happening. The Bears have been around for over a hundred years and their best QB has been what Jay Cutler? Best you can hope for is a mediocre at best QB, A Kirk Cousins, Ryan Tannehill level player and that what Love is going to be if youre lucky. Doesnt mean you can win some games with him but hes not going to become some elite talent.

Its one game. I wouldnt put too much stock into that since its a small sample size. Matt Flynn is a perfect example, he ended up getting beat out by a 3rd round QB because Russ came in and they saw what they had in him. Again the Packers and Matt LaFleur are already preaching patience to their fans and its year 4, in May, thats not good man. They wouldnt be saying that or letting that stuff come out of their franchise if they knew he was going to be such a good QB.

Yes, Jaire has been pretty good but again go back to what i said in my earlier post, even with Jaire saying hello that defense has still been mediocre.

Yeah well im not really on that side of the fence. The Vikings addressed a huge need this offseason and that was the DC position. Genuine question but if the Vikings would of kept Donatell and taken a CB round 1 would you think the Vikings ignored their issues or would you consider it a success? Because i dont. Id much rather have JA and Flores than Donatell and a CB in round 1. For what its worth Blackmon was one of Flores guys too, he absolutely loves him.


Of course theyre happy hes gone! How can you not with his narcissistic attitude.

There’s a lot of salt in this post.

If you actually listened to what the packers said, it was don’t expect Love to step right in and be a generational player like Rodgers. Packers fans have 30 years worth of generational quarterback play. Love might be close to a game manager, like Cousins, but there is still a lot of potential with him. I haven’t seen anything to suggest he can’t match Rodgers’ play from last year. My goal is for him to match that. Anything more than that is gravy. Anything less than that and the packers are probably picking a new QB1 in next year’s draft.

As for my comment about Jaire, the packers have been top 10 in fewest passing yards against each of the last three years. I’d argue the problem is more with coaching and the front 7. Safety wasn’t good last year, but this year’s draft was pretty weak for safeties.

I don’t see what firing your DC has to do with your draft selection. Wouldn’t the goal be to get your new DC weapons to work with?