Post-Game Talk: NJ (3) v. WSH (2), OT

[tycobb]

I laughed

I am laughing at you and your hockey "knowledge".

I'm not really arguing at all, just commenting. Every single person not affiliated with the Capitals that truly understands the sport will say Crosby. Ovi is more appealing to the eye of casual fans because he hits, he scores goals, he showboats and has more of a personality, but it's really not a contest.

You mean canadians pick Crosby over Ovi? I am shocked.

Mostly on the PP, not so much ES. ES he has most recently played with Dupuis and Cooke. Ovechkin played with Backstrom, Semin, and Mike Green. You don't have a case there. Or anywhere, really.

Ovechkin was great before Backstrom, Semin and Green were even on the team. Crosby plays with Malkin, Neal, and Letang.

You still haven't presented a case. Like anything at all other than Crosby is a C and Ovi is a winger.

 

[tycobb]

Ovi has been able to play 557 games since 2005 compared to Sid's 438. That is 119 games an AHL player had to play for Pitt out of the 578 total games. A remarkable 20% of Pitt game Sid wasn't healthy enough to play. Compare that to 3.6% for Ovi and the caps.

 

[Capt Nico Poo]

After seeing an entire match of Jmac #2 team and their awsum PP, all I can say about Adam Oates is good riddance.

 

[NJDevs26]

I am laughing at you and your hockey "knowledge".



Ovechkin was great before Backstrom, Semin and Green were even on the team. Crosby plays with Malkin, Neal, and Letang.

You still haven't presented a case. Like anything at all other than Crosby is a C and Ovi is a winger.

Crosby's played at most, 25 games with Neal. And all after Ovechkin's years where he was 'better than Crosby'. Ovechkin played one year before Semin and Green became regulars, and in that year scoring numbers were out of whack across the board, and Crosby got 102 points with similar 'talent' around him.

And staying healthy is not a 'skill', well it is to some degree but not when you're talking about concussions for the most part, that's practically random and there's no conditioning program to avoid them.

 

[tycobb]

Crosby's played at most, 25 games with Neal. And all after Ovechkin's years where he was 'better than Crosby'. Ovechkin played one year before Semin and Green became regulars, and in that year scoring numbers were out of whack across the board, and Crosby got 120 points with similar 'talent' around him.

And staying healthy is not a 'skill', well it is to some degree but not when you're talking about concussions for the most part, that's practically random and there's no conditioning program to avoid them.

Ovi is 6-3 230 lbs. He is built like a tank and staying healthy is a very valuable asset. Crosby played 1 year without Malkin being on his team. Pitt was pretty much the same team record wise with Crosby in or out.

 

[ILikeItVeryMuch*]

Crosby is so much better.

 

[tycobb]

Crosby is so much better.

That isn't the question. I am arguing that Ovechkin was the better player.

 

[Devilsfanatic0421]

That isn't the question. I am arguing that Ovechkin was the better player.

Ovechkin plays one side of the puck. He's Kovalchuk before he came to NJ.

Crosby is a very accomplished 2 way FW, who can create and score.

I don't like Crosby, but it is hard to argue Ovi was ever the all around better player.

 

[apice3*]

I am laughing at you and your hockey "knowledge".



Ovechkin was great before Backstrom, Semin and Green were even on the team. Crosby plays with Malkin, Neal, and Letang.

You still haven't presented a case. Like anything at all other than Crosby is a C and Ovi is a winger.

I'm not presenting a case because it's a waste of time. If you think Ovechkin is/was better than Crosby, you don't understand hockey well enough.

 

[tycobb]

Ovechkin plays one side of the puck. He's Kovalchuk before he came to NJ.

Crosby is a very accomplished 2 way FW, who can create and score.

I don't like Crosby, but it is hard to argue Ovi was ever the all around better player.

This is just lazy. Player A scores lots of goals = Player A can't play defense. The whole point of hockey is to score more goals than you let in.

Player A is on the ice for 3.79 goals and 2.56 goals against per 60 for 5on5.
Player B is on the ice for 3.92 goals and 2.51 goals against per 60 for 5on5.

Player A is on the ice for 3.72 goals and 2.91 goals against per 60 for 5on5.
Player B is on the ice for 3.57 goals and 3.00 goals against per 60 for 5on5.

 

[tycobb]

I'm not presenting a case because it's a waste of time. If you think Ovechkin is/was better than Crosby, you don't understand hockey well enough.

Your not presenting a case because all you have is some bias subjective BS.

 

[apice3*]

You got me.

 

[Saugus]

At no point in his career has Ovechkin been the best player in the league. Crosby has been better since day 1. Anyone who thought otherwised was just being enamored by the flair Ovi brought to the table.

He brought the gaudy offensive numbers, but Crosby was always the better two way player.

Lol. I fine it hard to believe anyone would take Crosby prime over Ovi prime. Ovechkin 65 goal season is one of the greatest years of all time.

We are Devils fans. We always consider defensive ability first. Crosby is better. QED.

 

[Getzo5]

Crosby has never been better than Datsyuk then. There I said it.

 

[tycobb]

He brought the gaudy offensive numbers, but Crosby was always the better two way player.



We are Devils fans. We always consider defensive ability first. Crosby is better. QED.

???? I take both Offensive and Defensive production when I picked Ovi over Sid. I find it sad that Devils fans who probably watch less than 5% of both of the players games just assume Sid's defense is so great and Ovi's defense is so bad.

 

[tycobb]

Crosby has never been better than Datsyuk then. There I said it.

Using their logic Madden and Pandolf were both better than Crosby.

 

[Saugus]

???? I take both Offensive and Defensive production when I picked Ovi over Sid. I find it sad that Devils fans who probably watch less than 5% of both of the players games just assume Sid's defense is so great and Ovi's defense is so bad.

Are you trying to tell me that Ovechkin's defensive play isn't bad? He floats like crazy, he cherry picks in a way that would never be acceptable on the Devils, and his idea of good defence is running around trying to hit the puck carrier.

On the other hand, I've never heard a bad thing said about Crosby's defensive game, nor have I seen any games where he has been dreadful defensively. I don't think everyone is just biased here, his defensive game really is good.

And so, when we take everything into consideration, we end up with Ovechkin being elite offensively and bad defensively, and Crosby being only slightly less elite offensively (when healthy) and well above average defensively. I know which one I'd rather have on the Devils.

 

[apice3*]

Crosby has never been better than Datsyuk then. There I said it.

At one point you can make that case, but I don't think Datsyuk is the better player any more.

And so, when we take everything into consideration, we end up with Ovechkin being elite offensively and bad defensively, and Crosby being only slightly less elite offensively (when healthy) and well above average defensively. I know which one I'd rather have on the Devils.

I wouldn't even say Ovi is more elite offensively. The only thing he was better than was goal scoring. Crosby makes everyone on his team that much better. Ovechkin is more of a create for himself guy.

 

[tycobb]

Are you trying to tell me that Ovechkin's defensive play isn't bad? He floats like crazy, he cherry picks in a way that would never be acceptable on the Devils, and his idea of good defence is running around trying to hit the puck carrier.

On the other hand, I've never heard a bad thing said about Crosby's defensive game, nor have I seen any games where he has been dreadful defensively. I don't think everyone is just biased here, his defensive game really is good.

And so, when we take everything into consideration, we end up with Ovechkin being elite offensively and bad defensively, and Crosby being only slightly less elite offensively (when healthy) and well above average defensively. I know which one I'd rather have on the Devils.

How many games have you watched Ovi and Sid played? Sid is a great player that gets marketed like he is the greatest player ever when he isn't even close. He may not even be the best player on his team, but the media pushes the idea that Sid is so great.

You won't believe which one is which.

GA On/60
2011 - 2012 | 2.76 vs 2.96
2010 - 2011 | 2.03 vs 2.62
2009 - 2010 | 1.77 vs 3.26
2008 - 2009 | 2.91 vs 3.00
2007 - 2008 | 2.56 vs 2.51

 

[Saugus]

How many games have you watched Ovi and Sid played? Sid is a great player that gets marketed like he is the greatest player ever when he isn't even close. He may not even be the best player on his team, but the media pushes the idea that Sid is so great.

You won't believe which one is which.

GA On/60
2011 - 2012 | 2.76 vs 2.96
2010 - 2011 | 2.03 vs 2.62
2009 - 2010 | 1.77 vs 3.26
2008 - 2009 | 2.91 vs 3.00
2007 - 2008 | 2.56 vs 2.51

I don't like doing this, but: you're asking someone with 93,000 posts on the site how much hockey he watches.

I have seen a lot of games of both of these players. Like I said, I know which one I'd rather have. Crosby prevents more than enough goals against to make up for the gap between him and Ovechkin for scoring them.

 

[NJDevs26]

And this thread is exactly why I hate entirely stat-based arguments. Stats can manipulate what you see clearly with your eyes.

 

[apice3*]

Today I learned Saugus doesn't watch hockey

 

[tycobb]

I don't like doing this, but: you're asking someone with 93,000 posts on the site how much hockey he watches.

I have seen a lot of games of both of these players. Like I said, I know which one I'd rather have. Crosby prevents more than enough goals against to make up for the gap between him and Ovechkin for scoring them.

No I am asking how much you watch Sid and Ovi? I doubt I watched anywhere near 10% of their games and I watch a lot of hockey. Unless you are a fan of the teams it would be hard to watch each team night and night out.

And this thread is exactly why I hate entirely stat-based arguments. Stats can manipulate what you see clearly with your eyes.

The stats are not manipulated. It is simply the Goals Allowed per 60 minutes of 5on5 hockey. Over the course of 5 seasons Ovi had a lower average besides 1 season. But it is easy to say Ovi is worse in the Defensive zone than Crosby because they play different positions. You need to compare Crosby vs other C and Ovi vs other LW in the league.

No one has brought anything to this discussion other than my "eyes tell me different". And this is how Derek Jeter can win 5 gold gloves!!!!!!!!!!

 

[apice3*]

Crosby is also the best faceoff guy on his team and is taking defensive zone draws, while starting Ovechkin in the defensive zone is useless. Ovechkin is further from his net when gameplay resumes.

That's one of the many flaws in your argument.

 

[NJDevs26]

The stats are not manipulated. It is simply the Goals Allowed per 60 minutes of 5on5 hockey. Over the course of 5 seasons Ovi had a lower average besides 1 season. But it is easy to say Ovi is worse in the Defensive zone than Crosby because they play different positions. You need to compare Crosby vs other C and Ovi vs other LW in the league.

No one has brought anything to this discussion other than my "eyes tell me different". And this is how Derek Jeter can win 5 gold gloves!!!!!!!!!!

I was saying the stats manipulated common sense. I could use stats to say Luongo was a better goalie in his prime than Brodeur was in his prime because he had better save percentages, doesn't make it true.

Jeter won five gold gloves because of who he plays for and his godded up rep.

The stat itself is faulty since 'Even strength' numbers also ignore Crosby getting more PK time than Ovechkin. And attributing goals allowed to one player on the ice among six is silly anyway, unless that one is the goalie. One guy has more defensive responsibility than the other for a reason.